Outdoor music system

[Krusty Blade]

Hello all.

I need some assistance with selecting and installing an outdoor music system at my place.

Since I dont have much experience with audio, and even less so when it comes to outdoor systems any help will be much appreciated. I have attached a drawing of the area where the system will be installed.(oops, cannot do any images yet, need more than 5 posts.

I will need assistance with speaker placement, speaker selection and what receiver/amp to drive everything.

The area where the system will be installed is on the 1st floor veranda,which is covered by a roof, but open on the sides. On the ground level there is a pool where I would like to have some speakers installed too. Everything will be controlled from the Bar area, where I will need a TV installed. Any preferences for TV's for outside use?

I want to be able to cover the whole area with sound, so any recommendation on the amount of speakers needed and the placement of these speakers will be a great help.

The budget for this setup is more or less about $2k

The area is about 2002.087 ft².

 

[BMXTRIX]

With your budget, you will compromise sound quality. Not that your budget isn't solid, but for outdoor use, you really need a speaker about every 10-20 feet that is a quality speaker, with a decent woofer, to get best sound quality.

Keep in mind, while the area you want to cover is 2000 square feet, the reality is that you are in an open space, so you get none of the benefits of audio reflections to help with audio, especially base.

www.outdoorspeakerdepot.com has some good value outdoor product for you to work with on your budget.

I should add, if you are looking at a outdoor rated TV, then you have almost no options, and SunbriteTV is about the only way to go and the only one I would recommend. Their TVs start at well over $2,000.

You just can't put stuff like TVs outside.

Plenty of outdoor speakers to find, not that many TVs.

$2,000 may cover things for a decent outdoor audio setup over that much space, but you will not get any TV if you spent every cent of your budget on it which would survive outside.

 

[Krusty Blade]

Thanks for the info. Would the Yamaha NS-AW350 be ok for this? The specs are as follows:

130 watts maximum power capacity, 40 watts nominal
6.5-inch high-compliance, polypropylene, mica-filled woofer and 1-inch PEI dome tweeter; magnetically shielded and water resistant
Speakers Maximum Output Power: 130 Watts
Speakers Response Bandwidth: 45 - 40000 Hz

What system would I need to drive these? I am not sure if a normal AV receiver is what is needed for this.

I can always increase the budget if need be, the 2k was just a rough estimated. I would say that I can go up to about 5k.

 

[walter duque]

Just to give you an idea of a good outdoor speaker system.

http://www.sourcespeaker.com/BCOUTDOOR.html

 

[Rickster71]

Just to give you an idea of a good outdoor speaker system.

http://www.sourcespeaker.com/BCOUTDOOR.html

Hey Walter I think I saw that at Disney World.

 

[walter duque]

Hey Walter I think I saw that at Disney World.

Good chance you did. They might even end up in my living room.

 

[timoteo]

Welcome!

With the budget of $2000 you will be able to get a very decent audio setup for that outdoor area. Will you get the best?....no, but you will be able to get very satisfactory results. So dont worry about having to go nuts out there if you dont want to. I do agree that the TV will push you toward the 4K+ mark & thats if you go with a SunBrite. That would be the only TV that id recommend as well for outdoor use.

As far as the Yamaha speakers you mentioned, i can tell you that they are a very nice little speaker for the money. Well they are not THAT little but they do get the job done. I have a pair of them on my patio & am very pleased with their neutral sound. The dont go very low so an outdoor sub is HIGHLY recommended. Earthquake Sound has a outdoor 10" sub in the shape of a rock that ive heard & it has a lot of power in its output. Its a ported design that has an S shaped port so water cant get inside the enclosure. Plus the opening of the port is covered in a mesh that not only helps hide it but keeps critters out. I believe that sub runs about $375.

If i were you i would get 5 of the Yamaha speakers plus sub in the main area then run a Zone 2 with a pair down below. Pick up a Yamaha RXA710 to power them & a Sunbrite TV. This should run you about: $1400 (speakers, sub & reciever) Add a TV for $2400 & your at a grand total of $3800.

See! Its not only possible but you'll get great proformance & be within budget with another $1200 to add external amps or another zone. By the way that price i quoted is for 8 speakers (4 pair) so you could do a 4.1 & 2 other 2.0 zones.

Well hope this helps! Do some research & you can put together many versions similar to this one. This is just an example.

Happy Listening!!!

 

[Krusty Blade]

timoteo,

Thanks for all the info. You have pointed my in the right direction.I will post the results of my research here before I make a final purchase.

Thanks again.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I don't think 4 6.5" speakers is giong to cover your area cleanly. I also think you need to look at Sunbrite TV pricing. MSRP for a 22" outdoor LCD is $2095. MSRP for their 46" model is over $4,000. So, please do keep that in mind for an outdoor TV. Especially if you wanted a 46" or larger display.

The issue with all of it is coverage outdoors being far more difficult than coverage indoors. You can turn up 4 or 5 speakers and hear it everywhere, but it will be very loud near the speaker and grow very faint as you move away from it. It becomes very uneven, and can be very unpleasent to listen to. Similar to going to a restaurant where audio is uneven and you can't hear someone if you sit at certain tables because the speaker is right there blasting you out.

I would shoot for more speakers, and I would recommend that you determine how you want to control everything. Source selection, audio volume, etc. I would probably go for a 12 channel amplifier with 60 watts per channel rating.

That Yamaha receiver likely drives about 30 watts per channel with 5 channels driven at once. As well, the audio will be in stereo, without proper balancing across the outdoor space.

Instead, I would sum the stereo to mono, go to a 8" outdoor speaker for better low end coverage, and start with 6-12 speakers if possible, evenly distributed across the space. Spending more for a Yamaha speaker, if it costs more, I would not do.

6 pairs of these: http://www.outdoorspeakerdepot.com/aphipepa8pas.html
Plus a 12 channel amplifier via eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ELAN-D1650-16-Channel-Digital-Power-Amplifier-/290598352479?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a902f65f

The above is just an example amplifier (16 channels actually) and there are other options that are 12 channels, or even others with 8. These are true audio distribution amplifiers, and not a repurposed home theater receiver. The plus side is that their power is usually very accurate across all channels. So, if they say 50 watts per channel, they mean 50 watts, for every one of 12 channels, unlike receivers which drive far less across all channels.

Volume control would need to happen at the source, and you can get attenuators for that if need be, or use multiple volume controls, or outdoor volume controls. There are actually a number of options for this setup which would make things work really nicely.

Would the receiver and Yamaha speakers work? Yes. It's just a question of the level of quality you are looking for. I wouldn't go that route and I think audio quality would be pretty significantly compromised.

 

[timoteo]

Why dont some people listen to the OPs budget? Of course doing all those things will make an improvement in sound & coverage!! But when doing so falls WAY outside the budget, whats the point of telling him all that?

I was at a Sunbrite distributor recently & their prices where a bit lower than what has been quoted by previous post.

KrustyBlade, look, think about how important all these things talked about are to you then come up with a maximum budget that is reasonable to you. Then you can check out outdoor speaker prices & i promise you, you will get at the LEAST, nice sound if not exceptionally nice sound. You will get some that say "a $150 HTIB will do fine outside" all the way to "you absolutely NEED 12 speakers with 1,000watts each channel to get the best experience". All im sayin is, with the budget mentioned already, i promise you, you can get very pleasing outdoor sound if you make a few key choices!!

Happy Huntin Bud!!

 

[InTheIndustry]

A long post... lots to cover.... litterally

I've read & reread over this thread a few times now, trying to picture your back entertainment area. It's unfortunate that you can't post pics or attach images yet, but I think I have a good understanding as to where you're coming from.

Last year we did a client's home & it went something like this....

I will list MSRP pricing for you so you get the idea of maximum cost. There's a little bit of play in some of these things & a lot in others. All in all the total comes out to be $5129, but under $5K should easily be attained. We did this for our client and included installation & wiring at no cost so, there's certainly wiggle room for whoever you decide to go through to set this up. I will number the pieces I would recommend 1-5 so you can keep track of the MSRPs easier at the end....

1 - Around the pool (our client had landscaping so these were perfect) we used Phase Technology SPF-85 http://www.phasetech.com/products.html?product_id=SPF-85&od=1 . They come in Sandstone or Green & the bottom portions get buried a bit in the ground so weed whackers, etc. don't damage them. Virtually indestructible, sound AMAZING, and use a coaxial 8" down firing woofer & 1" tweeter. They have real world chest thumping bass outdoors so no need for a sub, do stereo imaging up to 25' apart (we usually do them further because they can do 35' easily), and can get stunningly loud while remaining clear. Because of the coaxial setup they disperse sound 360 degrees so coverage is fabulous in all directions.

2 - In your covered porch (I'm imagining some sort of covering or ceiling?) I would do a single pair of Jamo 8.5CST (white/paintable) http://www.jamo.com/eu-en/products/8-5cs-t-description/ . These are 8" in-ceiling speakers that are built to withstand outdoor use and moisture. We do them all the time outside & in bathrooms where people shower & such. They've all held up perfectly well & we've never gotten a service call from them being damaged. They sound excellent and I would strongly recommend them. If in-ceiling doesn't work, there are a million different surface mount outdoor speakers all under $300 a pair. The Dayton Audio 6 1/2" models (white/black/paintable) http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=310-056 are fabulous for the money at roughly $150 a pair. I like the clean look of the recessed Jamos, but either way works. If 1 pair of Jamos won't cover enough of the covered patio/deck add a 2nd pair.

3 - Sonos. This is what I would use as your music source/player. It streams Rhapsody, Napster, Pandora, Sirius, any music on your PCs, and virtually any internet radio station in the world. You will need an amplified ZP120 (Labeled "Patio") to source & power the one or two pair of speakers on your covered porch. You will need a ZP90 (labeled "Pool") & an amp (see #4) for the PhaseTechnologys in the landscaping. Lastly you will need a Sonos ZoneBridge to plug into your router. Easiest thing in our industry to set up & control. You would use an iPad/Droid/iPodTouch/iPhone or any PC in the house as a remote to control the system's volume & what it's playing. One of my favorite pieces of equipment currently on the market. http://sonos.com/ . You will NOT need volume controls as whatever you use to control Sonos with will allow you to adjust the volume. This will allow you to play on thing on the porch & one thing around the pool as well as the same thing in both areas. Even if two different things at once is not an option I like the idea of being able to independently do the volume from the remote instead of getting up to go to a volume control somewhere. You can justify the expense or savings based on preference & application.

4 - Amplifier for the ZP90 http://parasound.com/ParasoundZ/zampv3.php . Parasound Zamp V.3. It's very small, bulletproof - important because this thing will be outside in the heat, and stable down to 2ohms. The Phase Techs are power hungry big time and 4ohms. This amp will take the abuse of playing loudly at 4ohms outside in the heat without any problem whatsoever. I would caution against the longevity of a typical stereo reciever or whole house audio amp in those conditions. They typically run hot.

5 - SunBrite SB-3230HD 32" Outdoor TV http://sunbritetv.com/pdf/3230hdspecsheet.pdf . I went with the 32" because of your budget. As BMXTrix pointed out, the 46" is twice the price. I understand the want fo outdoor TV, and even the need for sports fans or those who entertain. But, it's still considered a luxury in a luxury market. There's only one company I would even think to use and that's SunBrite. Your choices are "expensive" for the 32" or "EXPENSIVE" for the 46". Either way, the products are as advertised and worth it for those who will use them.

So, let's recap. MSRPs for total equipment in each section....

1 – PhaseTechnology SPF-85 $1360/pair
2 - Jamo 8.5CST $369/pair
3 - Sonos ZP90, ZP120, ZoneBridge $950/For All
4 - Parasound Zamp V.3 $350
5 - SunBrite 32" TV $2100
TOTAL MSRP: $5129

This should all be able to be had for under $4900 (including the mount for the TV) fairly easily and will blow your expectations away. Also, the source eqipment and amps are small enough that I can basically stack them all in one hand - so fitting them someplace in your outdoors or inside is as easy as it gets. Sorry for the book or if I got your details or plans wrong. Tough to do without a drawing. If you have any questions, comments, or want to PM/email a drawing let us know!

 

[timoteo]

Why dont some people listen to the OPs budget? Of course doing all those things will make an improvement in sound & coverage!! But when doing so falls WAY outside the budget, whats the point of telling him all that?

I was at a Sunbrite distributor recently & their prices where a bit lower than what has been quoted by previous post.

KrustyBlade, look, think about how important all these things talked about are to you then come up with a maximum budget that is reasonable to you. Then you can check out outdoor speaker prices & i promise you, you will get at the LEAST, nice sound if not exceptionally nice sound. You will get some that say "a $150 HTIB will do fine outside" all the way to "you absolutely NEED 12 speakers with 1,000watts each channel to get the best experience". All im sayin is, with the budget mentioned already, i promise you, you can get very pleasing outdoor sound if you make a few key choices!!

Happy Huntin Bud!!

 

[InTheIndustry]

Why dont some people listen to the OPs budget? Of course doing all those things will make an improvement in sound & coverage!! But when doing so falls WAY outside the budget, whats the point of telling him all that?

I was at a Sunbrite distributor recently & their prices where a bit lower than what has been quoted by previous post.

KrustyBlade, look, think about how important all these things talked about are to you then come up with a maximum budget that is reasonable to you. Then you can check out outdoor speaker prices & i promise you, you will get at the LEAST, nice sound if not exceptionally nice sound. You will get some that say "a $150 HTIB will do fine outside" all the way to "you absolutely NEED 12 speakers with 1,000watts each channel to get the best experience". All im sayin is, with the budget mentioned already, i promise you, you can get very pleasing outdoor sound if you make a few key choices!!

Happy Huntin Bud!!

OP's budget has been stated as between $2K & $5K - check out the last 2 lines in his 2nd post (#3 on the thread) . What I listed certainly falls within that range with a modest discount, which should be easily attained and most certainly exceeded.

I listed MSRP for all of the products & I used my most up to date SunBrite price sheet. The SunBrite price sheet has a $2,095 "List Price" (AKA MSRP) & a MAP that is a little lower at $1995. Since we all live in different parts of the country & have different deals/negotiating skills I would rather just list the highest he could be quoted (MSRP) than speculate & potentially over promise on the lowest price he could get.

 

[Krusty Blade]

Thanks for all the updates. It surely gives me a lot to ponder over. I can now finally attach the image. I can take some photos too if that will help more. There has been a lot posted here, so back to the drawing board for me. Google, here I come.

Thanks again every one.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think InTheIndustry brings up some very valid options as well.

I'm not as convinced that just a couple of pairs of speakers will provide smooth outdoor audio coverage without significant hotspotting. Typically stereo imaging is something I try to maintain in serious audio listening zones, but when music is going to be listened to in a wide variety of listening areas, then smooth mono audio coverage is something I consider far more important. Big difference between a 'room' and a 'space'. You have moved out of the room and into a space, and that space needs even coverage. This is how most professional outdoor facilities treat things, and there is a reason for that.

Likewise, the significant cost of the speakers seems unwarranted. I've had extremely good results with lesser expensive speakers.

Outdoors, with landscaping, something like these:
http://www.outdoorspeakerdepot.com/flomingrgasp.html

Several of them at $150 each gives more even coverage without breaking the bank.

I have not used Sonos, but am certainly not arguing it. I think it may prove itself to be an excellent pre-amp source and audio product for you. I would still likely stick with a good multi-channel amp via eBay which will provide sufficient power to the speakers and is designed for prolonged use.

Not sure where the previous poster got 1,000 watts per channel from a 50 or 60 watt per channel amplifier, but a quality well built amplifier is very much an asset to a system which needs to project audio.

I do agree that in the patio section which is covered, you can likely get by with 2-4 speakers in-ceiling just fine. I've had indoor speakers on my front porch for 6 years now without any issues at all. They do very well! Once again, paying to much for those speakers doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

I can't tell a lot from the drawing provided. I may just not be familiar with that drawing type, but I can't tell what is patio, what is grass, what any dimensions are... I see 'bar' and 'pool below' (?) and steps which go nowhere... weird. Just doesn't seem to give the details I would want to make the best recommendation.

The most obvious issue in all of this is that the TV will be expensive. I checked Sunbrite MSRP pricing as well before I gave it and most people think of a TV at 50" being 'normal' for under $2,000, which is just not the case. So, I would focus on the TV as a separate expense item from the rest of your setup.

Actually, if I were doing all of this, I would get a bunch of Crestron stuff from eBay and put together a RF controlled system for a few hundred bucks more. But, that gets pricey when you don't know how to program all of it.

 

[InTheIndustry]

I think InTheIndustry brings up some very valid options as well.

I'm not as convinced that just a couple of pairs of speakers will provide smooth outdoor audio coverage without significant hotspotting. Typically stereo imaging is something I try to maintain in serious audio listening zones, but when music is going to be listened to in a wide variety of listening areas, then smooth mono audio coverage is something I consider far more important. Big difference between a 'room' and a 'space'. You have moved out of the room and into a space, and that space needs even coverage. This is how most professional outdoor facilities treat things, and there is a reason for that.

Likewise, the significant cost of the speakers seems unwarranted. I've had extremely good results with lesser expensive speakers.

Outdoors, with landscaping, something like these:
http://www.outdoorspeakerdepot.com/flomingrgasp.html

Several of them at $150 each gives more even coverage without breaking the bank.

I have not used Sonos, but am certainly not arguing it. I think it may prove itself to be an excellent pre-amp source and audio product for you. I would still likely stick with a good multi-channel amp via eBay which will provide sufficient power to the speakers and is designed for prolonged use.

Not sure where the previous poster got 1,000 watts per channel from a 50 or 60 watt per channel amplifier, but a quality well built amplifier is very much an asset to a system which needs to project audio.

I do agree that in the patio section which is covered, you can likely get by with 2-4 speakers in-ceiling just fine. I've had indoor speakers on my front porch for 6 years now without any issues at all. They do very well! Once again, paying to much for those speakers doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

I can't tell a lot from the drawing provided. I may just not be familiar with that drawing type, but I can't tell what is patio, what is grass, what any dimensions are... I see 'bar' and 'pool below' (?) and steps which go nowhere... weird. Just doesn't seem to give the details I would want to make the best recommendation.

The most obvious issue in all of this is that the TV will be expensive. I checked Sunbrite MSRP pricing as well before I gave it and most people think of a TV at 50" being 'normal' for under $2,000, which is just not the case. So, I would focus on the TV as a separate expense item from the rest of your setup.

Actually, if I were doing all of this, I would get a bunch of Crestron stuff from eBay and put together a RF controlled system for a few hundred bucks more. But, that gets pricey when you don't know how to program all of it.

I agree w/ BMXTRIX that the plans are a little different as I don't understand where the covered portion of the patio begins and ends? If the covered patio/deck is large then add another pair of the 8" Jamo in-ceiling I recommended. The Sonos 120 amp is 4ohm stable and will handle both just fine. & yes, the outdoor TV will be expensive! Again, worth it if you will use it.

I don't know the quality of the Outdoorspeakerdepot's speakers you linked because I've never used them. But, I do know what the PhaseTech speakers I linked and they're unbelievable for outdoor speakers with great coverage and high sound quality. And they should be at that price! I will make a video of them playing outside of our showroom and how to use an iPad with Sonos to control them and post it on Youtube so you guys can see how it would work and get an idea of sound & coverage. I can walk around the building next door and still get quality sound & coverage... and our pair of speakers are behind good sized bushes.

I would like to make an assumption....
At the OPs stated budget, I think OP would have the right to expect cake and being able to eat it too, meaning: excellent quality music & coverage & not just noise when he walked around. Again, not an indictment against the outdoor speaker depot, but I would hate to see 3 or 4 pair of those things laying around a yard and, on top of that, the sound to be poor.

Another thing to consider with all of those is the AMP & space needed to house all of that equipment.

I BOLDED the last part of your post, BMX, because I don't really get where you're coming from with it.
Sincerely: I do not understand the used Crestron market, but as you pointed out just programming it would probably eat up a lot of OP's stated budget. Are there pieces you have in mind that would be affordable - yet still current - that would go with this type of system & budget? Being an AMX house our catalog is literally the size of a phone book (see pic). It would be next to impossible for an end user to even begin to understand what it is they would need to purchase new. Now, add many years of back issue catalogs and model layers & widgets & on & on. I wouldn’t think an end user would even begin to understand where to start.

I know Crestron has some prepackaged distributed audio systems (Adagio?). Is this what you would recommend to find on ebay? Just trying to understand what the thought process was behind the Crestron recommendation. I’m always willing and eager to learn new ideas and system layouts from other professionals but it’s just hard for me to fathom spending that much of the stated budget on a system like that to control a handful of $150 speakers?

 

[BMXTRIX]

It's a bit off topic, but since I program Crestron, and their stuff, at the hardware level, is virtually indestructable. I go to eBay to buy a lot of stuff for my clients. You can get stuff that has a MSRP of $2,000+ and is still current, from board rooms and such that have closed down and only pay a few hundred dollars. In this case, a RF control processor like the MC2W can be had for about $100. This can interface directly with the MX850 Universal Remote Control for about $100. Add a couple of Crestron Volume controls for about $100 and you get a RF remote control which can adjust volume and run the show for $300 hardware cost. Still would need a source selector, and the Sonos may prove to be more adept at the two way interface. I've yet to use them in this type of system. There is also the matter of getting video from the head end out to the TV and controlling the cable box, etc. which must be considered. This really isn't a straightforward system to setup and burying the proper cabling alone may prove to be of a significant expense, or at least take a fair bit of time.

I do want/need to go into a home which has Sonos in it and is being used to the full capabilities of what it can do so I can better understand it. If I make it to CEDIA, then I may hit up their booth for a while to get a better understanding as well.

Something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CRESTRON-VOLUME-CONTROLLER-C2N-VEQ4-/330601146114?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf95d2702

Will allow audio mixing and volume control to the two zones and two stereo sources connected.

None of these are on auction right now, but if they were, they typically go for about $100:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Crestron-MC2W-/320743844253?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aadd2a99d

And the URC MX-850 interfaces directly with the MC2W...
http://cgi.ebay.com/AEROS-MX-850-Universal-Remote-/170681930671?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bd6f93af

Once again, I keep an eye out for bargains on auctions, but it has proved to be very successful for both myself and my clients as I can deliver top shelf Crestron/AMX level quality for well under what cost is. Even less than what MSRP of a standard URC remote w/RF receiver would run!

 

[moreira85]

Yamaha

Thanks for the info. Would the Yamaha NS-AW350 be ok for this? The specs are as follows:

130 watts maximum power capacity, 40 watts nominal
6.5-inch high-compliance, polypropylene, mica-filled woofer and 1-inch PEI dome tweeter; magnetically shielded and water resistant
Speakers Maximum Output Power: 130 Watts
Speakers Response Bandwidth: 45 - 40000 Hz

What system would I need to drive these? I am not sure if a normal AV receiver is what is needed for this.

I can always increase the budget if need be, the 2k was just a rough estimated. I would say that I can go up to about 5k.

Krusty Blade, I bought the Yamaha NS 350 speakers and installed them myself outside. I am very happy with these speakers for the price. The sound quality is to my liking. I compared them to a set of Klipsch and felt these Yamaha's were just as good for under $100.
A couple of things to note, Easy to install, I usually listen to music around a volume of -30 on my Yamaha reciever on my home theater inside. When I play music outside on the Yamahas I have to turn the receiver up to about -5 so clearly a little tougher to drive, I am guessing because they are 6ohm? Also, occasionally the speaker grills fall off which I was not happy about. I put dab of glue around them to hold them on.
I just really want to clarify how happy I am with these speakers, They are very clear and we use them when sitting outside around the fire.
Good buy in my opinon.