Outboard DAC's

[ACsGreens]

Hey All,

I've have a few threads here today regarding a new speaker setup i am working on…..new question however…

I think after much consideration I am going to use Paradigm Studio 100's powered from a Yamaha 3010 and an external Anthem MCA30. I have a Sonos system and do want to use this through new setup. I am going to use this for 70/30 music/movie and will use this area as a chill/relax/jam out area. I am considering using an outboard DAC for sonos, but want to see if others have done so and what type of results did you see? I do believe I could get a great increase in sound quality but am not sure….any thoughts? much appreciated…

AC

 

[Irvrobinson]

It is unlikely that you'll hear an improvement just by changing to an external DAC, even a very good one.

 

[anamorphic96]

Why not just use the DAC in the Yamaha receiver. It's more than adequate. As much as you hear that DAC's make a difference. They don't. It's the analog output stage working with the DAC that will make a difference. If any.

DAC's have been a mature technology for many many years now. Don't waste your time on an outboard unit.

If you really want to improve the sound of your system in a big way. Get some room treatments and deal with the room. That's what you hear more than anything else.

Nice choice in speakers by the way.

 

[cpp]

The 24-bit/192kHz Burr-Brown DACs (DSD1791/DSD1796) in the 3010 are pretty good DAC's .

 

[ACsGreens]

Thanks CPP

So the other decision I have to make is how much power do I want to throw at them. Budget is around 6K, and I do need a new receiver/amp. I have been thinking of the Yammy 3010 and using the extra channels to bi-amp the studio's, but also thinking of downgrading the receiver and adding an external amp (maybe mca30). Any thoughts?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I totally agree that outboard DAC are a total waste of money.

So you already have the Studio 100 & Yamaha 3010 AVR?

You probably don't even need external amps.

But for budget, Emotiva is good. Higher end would be ATI amps. But I don't even think you need it since the 3010 is already beefy.

 

[cpp]

I say try your system out like it is, don't waste your money if you don't need to.

 

[ACsGreens]

Anamorphic (or anyone else)

So I once again am thinking about the STudio 60's instead of the 100's, allowing me to free a bit of cash up to add a few more pieces. I decided on the 2010, basically because it has all the features of the 3010, 10wpc less and 500 bucks less. I think I will use the bi-amping capabilities of the 2010, has anyone else done this and what performance did you get? Also, thoughts on change from 100's to 60's?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I think you should get the drift of majority of senior audioholics agree - outboard DACs are useless in most cases (and I'm not an exception)

Now I think it would be appropriate to start new thread to help you pickup speakers and receiver...

Personally I don't see the reason to pay retail Paradigm speaker prices - yes, they are good, but there others as good or even better for less ...
Case in point : philharmonicaudio.com

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So I once again am thinking about the STudio 60's instead of the 100's, allowing me to free a bit of cash up to add a few more pieces. I decided on the 2010, basically because it has all the features of the 3010, 10wpc less and 500 bucks less. I think I will use the bi-amping capabilities of the 2010, has anyone else done this and what performance did you get? Also, thoughts on change from 100's to 60's?

Yeah, like changing to the Philharmonic 2 speakers.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Personally I don't see the reason to pay retail Paradigm speaker prices - yes, they are good, but there others as good or even better for less ...
Case in point : philharmonicaudio.com

How do you know this? Have you heard them both?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How do you know this? Have you heard them both?

The only person who will ever know for sure is the person buying the speakers.

I have heard the Studio 100. But even if I think the Philharmonic speakers sound 100 times better, that does not guarantee the OP will agree.

Based on what I've heard from forum members in conjunction with my audition of the Studio 100, I can only make an educated guess that the Philharmonic speakers will sound better, but still no guarantee.

 

[anamorphic96]

I think I will use the bi-amping capabilities of the 2010, has anyone else done this and what performance did you get? Also, thoughts on change from 100's to 60's?

Bi-amping off of the Yamaha is useless and will gain you nothing since it's not even true bi-amping. To truly bi-amp you would need to install electronic crossovers and bypass the speakers and use seperate amps for the highs and lows. It's more of a marketing gimmick IMO.

Pretty expensive and really only needed for commercial cinema and live concerts and other outdoor settings.

 

[ACsGreens]

Anamorphic

So I guess im confused as to why the bi-amping won't work. I understand bi amping but there are two channels dedicated to zone 2/bi amp on the receiver. am I, at 2 channel, not going to get adequate power from the 2nd output? Keep in mind I'm only running 2 channel for awhile.

I love being in these convos with you guys, thanks a lot. My love for home audio is growing quite rapidly and it is nice to chat with others sharing the same passion. I am going with Studio 60's, much prefer them over the 100's. Do you think the 2010 can adequately power them? Is the dynamic headroom lacking? I know this is off topic from original post but oh well.

 

[anamorphic96]

So I guess im confused as to why the bi-amping won't work. I understand bi amping but there are two channels dedicated to zone 2/bi amp on the receiver. am I, at 2 channel, not going to get adequate power from the 2nd output? Keep in mind I'm only running 2 channel for awhile.

I love being in these convos with you guys, thanks a lot. My love for home audio is growing quite rapidly and it is nice to chat with others sharing the same passion. I am going with Studio 60's, much prefer them over the 100's. Do you think the 2010 can adequately power them? Is the dynamic headroom lacking? I know this is off topic from original post but oh well.

It will work. But there is no real benefit. You will not hear any improvement. Those channels are still sharing the same power supply. Stick with standard connections. Unless you want to actively bi-amp with seperate amps and electronic crossovers it's just a waste.

With all this said it wont hurt anything to passively bi-amp with the Yamaha either. Your just not gonna gain anything from this configuration.

The other two channels should really be used for zone two or front height channels if the Yamaha offers this.

 

[Irvrobinson]

So I guess im confused as to why the bi-amping won't work. I understand bi amping but there are two channels dedicated to zone 2/bi amp on the receiver. am I, at 2 channel, not going to get adequate power from the 2nd output? Keep in mind I'm only running 2 channel for awhile.

I did passive bi-amping, as this is called, for years, and the results varied depending on the speakers. My previous speakers were the very complex, multi-driver original Legacy Focus (3x12" woofer, 2x7" midrange, 1xdome tweeter, 1xleaf tweeter per side) and I definitely heard an improvement from vertically passively bi-amping each speaker. The mid-highs were cleaner with their own amp. I couldn't discern the difference between with/without bi-amping by just switching from one config to the other, but after an hour or so of listening I would be happier with the bi-amp option. Less listening fatigue. So I paid a lot for it, because it was worth a lot to me.

With the Revel Salon 2 speakers and the same amps I heard no difference at all with single or bi-amping. I bi-amp now with the Salon 2s only because I feed the woofers a high-pass filtered signal from my sub, and for the purest possible signal I feed the mid-high section amp a full-range signal direct from the pre-amp. Otherwise I'd be using one stereo amp.

The original Focus may have been a special case, because the in the lowest octaves that speaker is a low 2.x ohm load and the phase angle is capacitive in part of that range. Legacy used to sell super-beefy amps at the time (built by Coda), even though the speakers were rated for 96db/2.83v/1 meter. Maybe there was a reason.

So in the case with the Yamaha it can't hurt to try passive bi-amping and see what happens. There's an excellent chance you'll hear no improvement, if you're honest with yourself. Or you might hear an improvement, but since the price is just extra set of cables, who cares? In this case indulging your delusion, even if that ends up being what it is, is cheap. If you end up going with the Studio 100 you may crank the volume up a lot and that extra power may just make the sound cleaner. Or not. ;-) Judge for yourself. In the end these forums are nothing but conversation and free advice.

 

[PENG]

The only person who will ever know for sure is the person buying the speakers.

I have heard the Studio 100. But even if I think the Philharmonic speakers sound 100 times better, that does not guarantee the OP will agree.

Based on what I've heard from forum members in conjunction with my audition of the Studio 100, I can only make an educated guess that the Philharmonic speakers will sound better, but still no guarantee.

You heard the Studio and you are going with hearsay regarding the Phil2, but you are making an 'educated' guess so that is more than fair. You always got yourself covered.. I do wish to comment on the Studio 60 but don't want to go off topic. Back to the DAC, I would just say +1 ref to what others are saying in pervious posts, base on theory and some experience with listening to many players including high end ones with top notich DACs only.

 

[PENG]

but since the price is just extra set of cables, who cares? In this case indulging your delusion, even if that ends up being what it is, is cheap. If you end up going with the Studio 100 you may crank the volume up a lot and that extra power may just make the sound cleaner. Or not. ;-) Judge for yourself. In the end these forums are nothing but conversation and free advice.

Very fair comments, and I fully agree with the "indulging your delusion" part. I get that even with bi-wiring, but too lazy to try passive bi-amping so far because I know the two schemes are very similar from electrical standpoint (for those who truly understand electrical circuit theory, not just because someone posted something on the web) and should theoretically yield the same result base on human's hearing capability as long as the amp in use has more than enough power. In the case of the 2010, bi-amping should result in some power gain for 2 channel stereo listening.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Very fair comments, and I fully agree with the "indulging your delusion" part. I get that even with bi-wiring, but too lazy to try passive bi-amping so far because I know the two schemes are very similar from electrical standpoint (for those who truly understand electrical circuit theory, not just because someone posted something on the web) and should theoretically yield the same result base on human's hearing capability as long as the amp in use has more than enough power. In the case of the 2010, bi-amping should result in some power gain for 2 channel stereo listening.

I understand your dilemma on bi-amping, and I admit surprise when I found that passive bi-amping improved my perception of the Legacy's performance. Nonetheless, not all amplifiers, even expensive ones, perform perfectly into all loads. I do find amps can sound different, and apparently so does Gene, who comments on this in his AH reviews. So while my experiences may not follow most widely-held beliefs, they appear to at least have some support from other trained and reasonably rational people.

I have the same problem with cables. I "know" that nothing really out-performs 10ga copper zip cord for the lengths I use it, so trying out exotic speakers cables won't be something I try, even for free. No less BS like complex power cables. On the other hand, actual knowledge doesn't appear to be a limiter to some people. One person I know who absolutely believes in differences between well-designed cables is a graduate EE and former IC circuit designer to boot.