Open ended call for help

[slmcdonald7]

Hi all,

This may be a bit premature, but like my last thread (subwoofer question), my curiosity was piqued by a similar thread I read but didn't quite understand (I am COMPLETELY technologically inept). Here goes...

Like most of you (us?), I am officially in a constant process of upgrading my audio system. As for now, my focus is something like 95% music, 5% HT. For this thread, the relevant parts of my system are my Denon 3805 receiver, Polk 8" PW250 sub, and Kenwood CD-204 5 disc CD player. Interconnects were all the cheapest I could buy (college budget). The CD player is missing a 'foot' from the bottom, so it kinda leans to the left, and the sub isn't in the greatest shape either... short story is that though they both work 'fine' for now, I am not convinced that they will make it through the next two years.

At the turn of the year, I plan on spending up to / around another $1000 improving my system. As I see it, I have four main choices.

1) Spend the whole amount on a new subwoofer
2) Spend the whole amount on a new 5 disc DVD player (I was thinking about the Denon 2815, which I know would leave me with some leftover $, but I am not sure what I am looking for in this area, so let's continue on...)
3) Buy a cheaper 5 disc player as well as a subwoofer (I have a smaller house now and will upgrade almost everything in two years, so tip top of the line isn't absolutely necessary, but I would like the best for my budget {of course})
4) Buy a cheaper sub / disc player and get new wires and interconnects.

Until reading the recent threads about no difference between coaxial and optical digital, I had planned upon getting a new disc player that would 'do digital'. My CD player now has a digital optical output, but it is not compatible with my 3805, so I have been using the coaxial "Line Out Variable" rather than the "Digital Output Optical" from the CD player. I mention the names of both outputs only to demonstrate why I thought I needed a new player, since it seems from their names that the output that I am using is not digital, but I am not really sure, so if any of you can tell from the name (of either the output or the CD Player) and can tell me what I am using (is it digital or not?), I would appreciate it.

When I spoke with the technician at Denon about setting up my 3805, he asked if my CD player was digital, and when I said 'no', he strongly recommended that I go out and get a player that was capable of digital transmission, to take advantage of the way that the 3805 uses the digital input to make music. I am vaguely aware of some feature on CD or DVD players that does this digital processing instead of leaving it to the receiver (is it DAC? I could be making this up, I am not sure), but I wouldn't want this would I, since I don't plan on spending as much on the disc player as I did on my receiver, it wouldn't be as nice as the 3805, right? Also, I'm not sure how that Denon link or 3rd link or whatever Denon does operates or how it would help my system, but if it would help, I would like it... (vague I know).

I really like the way that my sub fills in the lower end that my mains can't reproduce, but I am unsure how much better of a subwoofer I could get for the money. I know as much about subs as I do CD / DVD players (i.e. not much), so I don't know how much of an improvement I would get with a new sub, but I would like the added peace of mind of knowing that my music will have a solid bottom end for the next couple years (not that my current sub has shown any signs of dying, but better safe than sorry I suppose). I think my 8" Polk sub is a foam cone (maybe?), so perhaps sound quality would go up with a new one (I would assume so)?

As far as new interconnects go, I have no idea what I am working with and no idea what I would buy, I have no idea what that would cost, and no idea how much this would improve my sound, but I just wanted to get it out there that I was considering this.

Anyways, here is the big question. If you were me, how would you spend your $ to get the best improvement in sound you could? You have a vague idea of my equipment and its limitations, so, what needs replacement the most, and how would you recommend I proceed from here?

Any and all input is appreciated,
-Stephen

 

[Unregistered]

You make no mention of your main speakers (or 5 speakers). For $1k, you could get a very nice pair of full range tower mains that would make a much bigger improvement to your system than any of the changes you mention. OTOH you might already have a very good set of speakers in which case a real subwoofer is probably your best place for improvement. Forget about the CD player and cables. The differences will be much to subtle to bother.

However, since you listen to 95% music (I assume 2ch), you should probably start over and put together a good 2ch setup and ditch all of that crappy HT gear.

 

[slmcdonald7]

Thanks

I suppose I should have been more clear, but I was trying to keep my massive post as slim as possible.

I do have a pair of mains that I recently purchased, I didn't mention them because I am not interested in replacing them, but thanks anyways.

I am trying to decide whether I would get better sound out of a new CD / DVD player with digital capabilities or if I should go with a new sub, or new interconnects, or a combination of any of the three for around the budget I am looking at ($1000, give or take a few hundred bucks), given the current state of my equipment (which I tried to cover in basic form in my original post). I know that there are a bajillion different things that effect the quality of sound I am going to get out of my system, but ignoring all extraneous factors (this is kinda like physics ) I am trying to determine where to apply my $ to best improve my sound, out of the four choices I initially described.

My 95% music 5% HT split will change in a couple of years when I get a bigger house, so I plan on keeping my receiver for HT, as I will increase my HT usage considerably as soon as I can mount the right speakers in the right places (an impossibility in the truly colonial house I live in now). In fact, this is why I was considering a 5 disc DVD player instead of a CD player.

So, back to my original question... any ideas?

Thanks,
Stephen

 

[Khellandros66]

Ok for music most (includding myself) believe front firing subs are best for music, as far interconnects go, stick with Audioquest, Monster, or (gulp) Radioshack gold series.

I would buy a pair of Velodyne 10in front firing or a maybe a Definitive Supercube.

B&W has some fantastic subs too.

EDIT: Downfiring is good for music but requires more thought out a particular placemtn because they rely so heavily on acoustic reflections.

~Bob

 

[Unregistered]

More subwoofer myths...

Acoustic reflections ? Front firing better for music? Come on!

Subwoofers ( real ones , not 8" satellite fillers ) operate below 100Hz. Unless your listening room is stadium sized, you are just loading the room. Down firing subs allow for easier placement and a much nicer high end roll off. They are also more expensive to implement well since they require larger displacement cones that remain linear in a horizontal orientation. All the rest is pure myth and/or nonsense.

 

[djoxygen]

My CD player now has a digital optical output, but it is not compatible with my 3805, so I have been using the coaxial "Line Out Variable" rather than the "Digital Output Optical" from the CD player. I mention the names of both outputs only to demonstrate why I thought I needed a new player, since it seems from their names that the output that I am using is not digital, but I am not really sure, so if any of you can tell from the name (of either the output or the CD Player) and can tell me what I am using (is it digital or not?), I would appreciate it.

I don't really have any recommendation on what to do with your $$ going forward, but I can tell you that "Line Out Variable" probably isn't digital. That label is usually used for a L/R pair of analog outputs that are post-crappy-amplifier that can be controlled from your remote or front panel (occasionally follows headphone level). Usually this would be used if you are hooking up directly to powered speakers. Since it's not a very good amp circuit, and since you have a receiver with which to control volume you shouldn't use it. Until you go digital, the fixed volume L/R outputs will be cleaner than the "Variable" ones.

 

[nm2285]

If I were in your position, I'd allot probably $700 to the sub and $300 to the player (or something around that). You can get some VERY nice players for around the $300-$350 mark. Look towards HSU and SVS for some great subwoofers and very reasonable prices. Cables-I would only upgrade those if they are really poorly constructed (like something that would come with a cheap CD player). Cables will not change the sound of a system, only switch them out if you need better build quality.

The sub will be a vast improvement if you go with a quality one like HSU or SVS (or even the Pinnacle digital sub350 like I have, they run about $450 now).

Out of curiousity, what are your speakers?

 

[docferdie]

75-150$ on a durable CD player with an optical or coaxial digital out
10-40$ on an optical or coaxial digital cable
rest of your money on the sub

This is probably the most bang you'll get for your buck as the 3805 has really great DACs. No point in spending for a fancy cd player since digital to analog conversion will be taken care of by the receiver.

You'll probably be able to stretch the value of your remaining money if you shop on the internet but the problem with subs is that they are too darn heavy to ship back so its best to buy at a local retailer. Besides, buying locally allows you easy exchange until you find a unit that blends with the rest of your speakers.

 

[slmcdonald7]

Good stuff

Hey all,
Thanks for the great ideas, I will consider them all. Below I have some general responses to the replies I received, with some very ignorant questions, so bear with me

Khellandros66 - That's the second time that a Velodyne 10 has been recommended to me (given my preference for music over HT), I will have to check it out.

Thanks all for the info on the differences between front and down firing subs, I was unaware that there was any real difference. What kind of difference would it make if the sub was placed on a hardwood floor?

djoxygen, thanks for confirming my suspicions that "Line Out Variable" wasn't digital. I'm curious however, how big of a difference does digital make (dumb question of the year)? Of course, technically a digital signal is much more pure than analog, but is there an audible difference?

nm2285 - I have Paradigm Monitor 11's v.3 / shielded. Sad to say I'm a little disappointed with the way that their bass drivers sound, they don't go as low as I would have anticipated, but perhaps I was overestimating the low frequency producing capabilities of 6 1/2" drivers For this reason, I would like to have a nicer sub that will be a bit more musical. My current one seems to be one of those "one note" subs, it's very noticeable with the 11's for some reason. When I paired it with my Paradigm Phantoms v3, I didn't notice it as much.

docferdie - Would there be any advantage to buying a Denon CD player to match my receiver, or are they all so similar once they output a digital signal that they're interchangeable?
about a sub that blends with my current set-up, Paradigm recommends the PW-2200 to match the 11's. Should I give any particular weight to this, or could a number of different subs work with the mains (I know that matching centers / surrounds to mains can be quite specific, but one would think that you could fudge it a bit more at the lower frequencies).

Thanks all, and keep the good ideas coming.

-Stephen

 

[nm2285]

"Khellandros66 - That's the second time that a Velodyne 10 has been recommended to me (given my preference for music over HT), I will have to check it out."

While I haven't heard any of the new Velodynes, my family owns a CHT-10. It's a nice performer, however, my Pinnacle Digital Sub350 does outperform it and can be had for under $500. I'd tell you to look for a higher end Velodyne if you go that route, or stick to HSU and SVS.

 

[jaxvon]

Ok for music most (includding myself) believe front firing subs are best for music, as far interconnects go, stick with Audioquest, Monster, or (gulp) Radioshack gold series.

~Bob

Well, if he'd do some reading here on Audioholics, he'd see that Audioquest is a major purveyor of cable snake oil. I'd advise you on staying away from Audioquest. For cables 'n such, you might want to look into the following companies:

Cobalt Cable

River Cable

Axiom

Avic Cable

Impact Acoustics

Blue Jeans Cable


Axiom also makes some well-rated speakers and subs that you might want to look into. You can also order directly from Axiom which makes buying stuff easier. They make their own drivers which drives down the cost of the final product.

You also might want to try Bully Subwoofers. They make a quality driver. Be aware though, that with the Bully Sub you'll need to find an external amp to drive the sub.

If you're familiar with car audio, then you already know this company. They just recently made a forray into the world of home audio with their new sub systems. They have some pretty unique technology that makes sense according to the seminars I've attended on subwoofer driver design.

JL Audio

I'm not sure if their stuff is on the market yet, but the amplifier is integrated into the sub enclosure (like Axiom) which makes the process of getting the stuff you need easier.

Like others said, Hsu Research and Velodyne are also good options for a sub.


That's all I can think of for now. I'm not even going to try to address your other issues right now.



Jackson

 

[docferdie]

docferdie - Would there be any advantage to buying a Denon CD player to match my receiver, or are they all so similar once they output a digital signal that they're interchangeable?
about a sub that blends with my current set-up, Paradigm recommends the PW-2200 to match the 11's. Should I give any particular weight to this, or could a number of different subs work with the mains (I know that matching centers / surrounds to mains can be quite specific, but one would think that you could fudge it a bit more at the lower frequencies).

Thanks all, and keep the good ideas coming.

-Stephen

Nope no advantage to buying an expensive CD player if your hookup is digital. In general the only reasons to buy an expensive optical disc player would be if the disc player's DACs were of a higher quality than your receiver's--in which case you would be doing analog hook-ups, or if you were into high resolution formats such as SACD for which there is no currently active digital method of connection--the Denon D-link is still in the approval stage for SACD last time I checked. With a receiver such as a 3805 you would be hard pressed to find a cd player within your budget that did better digital to analog conversion than the receiver.
As far as an actual sub make and model I'm afraid that I can not give you a specific recommendation as I have not auditioned enough of them. I personally am not a believer in brand matching speakers so I would definitely recommend you audition all available subs in your price range. Nothing beats an in home listening test though.