Official Yamaha RX-Z7 Receiver Review Thread

[Lordoftherings]

Adding to confusion about headphones listening for picking the right receiver!

!!! And not only that, but a good high end stereo integrated amp does not usually have a headphone jack.
Same thing with high end separates, the pre-amp usually does not have a headphone amp, it is asking for the introduction of useless distortion.

And the best way to listen from headphones is to get a separate headphone amplifier with it's own quality gain control and matching impedance, plus premium parts and circuitry from the discrete output stage to the lowest distortion possible from low impedance.

I'm starting to believe...

 

[jerrymcdon]

Yamaha ZX-R7 vs. Denon AVR-4310

Hi Jerry, and Welcome to the club.

A headphone amp has it's own circuitry, independent of the internal circuitry from the speaker's outputs.

Each receiver implement that headphone amp differently, so you cannot use this as your basis for judging sound quality from the speaker's outputs build on a complete different circuitry design.

Thanks for the input, Bob, since this is an indication that my methodology *might* be wrong. It's good to have the doubt, but I'm not sure this is the final word.

Namely, why would a brand committed to audio excellence show such indifference to what they output from a headphone jack? I'm not the only person in the world that wants to listen to headphones now and then, and find it absurd to think I have to buy another $2000 - $3000 worth of components to do so decently.

For what I hear from the Denon headphone jack is exquisite, and only the most la-dee of the la-dee-dah's could find the slightest fault with it. So as an added bonus, someone who buys the Denon partly to listen to headphone audio will also have a highly versatile multi-channel home video 7.1 receiver. One that I will have to at this time *assume*, since I don't yet have the speaker setup, will *at least* give the Yamaha a run for its money.

If this answer of separate circuitry is the full explanation, what I have to conclude based on my listening tests using headphones, and others' reviews of the Yamaha using speakers, is that Yamaha puts out the very best audio from its speaker terminals, and mediocrity from its headphone jack. And the Denon puts out superb audio from its headphones, and (-unknown in comparison-but hopefully also superb) audio from its speakers.

Since the Denon just hit the stores a few days before my purchase, I guess I probably *am* the only person in the world so far comparing the two in A/B tests. I'm limited to doing so via the headphones. I can instantly switch between the two receivers using the phones and readily compare how they presented the last 45 seconds of music. Even if I *did* have a hot 7.1 speaker setup, it would be very cumbersome to unhook one receiver from the speakers after listening to a passage, and instantly reconnect all the speakers to the other receiver so I could quickly hear the other one, etc.

I guess I am asking for expert comparison of the two based on this speaker output that is just not practical for me to do right now. I have a demanding full-time job that requires frequent travel, and it will be many, many months before I can do the recommended leisurely speaker shopping, etc.

It would be a shame to not be able to at least enjoy fantastic headphone audio in the meantime because I can't get a comparison from those who *do* have ready access to high-end speaker setups to answer what my fundamental question is ... in other words, how does this brand-new Denon compare with this 8-month old Yamaha, at $600 cheaper? These are the obvious two competing models, given the current lineup from both manufacturers.

Because if my headphone experiment is any guide, the Denon is by far the better choice. If its speaker output is more or less identical to that of the Yamaha, then it is clearly the better choice because of its much cheaper price and no-comparison headphone output for those of us who enjoy state-of-the-art headphone listening now and then, in addition to our home theater use.

Regards,

Jerry

 

[bandphan]

fishing is good here south florida, however im not going out on the grady white today because the wind is out of the southwest, im going out on the grady black because the chop sounds better against the hull,

best regards

scott

 

[bwillcox]

Namely, why would a brand committed to audio excellence show such indifference to what they output from a headphone jack?

Well, most people don't spend that much money on a set of headphones would be my guess.

But then, I'm probably a bad person to judge such things as I can't stand to have headphones on for more than about an hour before they make my head hurt so much that I have to take them off; and that's the large ones that go around the ear. For the kind that go on the ear it's about 15 minutes.

I agree with the other Bob, if your listening is going to be mostly via headphones, then maybe you don't want a multichannel receiver at all? A really good stereo setup or headphone amp may better suit your needs/listen habits.

Bob W

 

[jerrymcdon]

Serious Music Listening Through Headphones on A Multi-Channel Receiver

Well, most people don't spend that much money on a set of headphones would be my guess.

But then, I'm probably a bad person to judge such things as I can't stand to have headphones on for more than about an hour before they make my head hurt so much that I have to take them off; and that's the large ones that go around the ear. For the kind that go on the ear it's about 15 minutes.

I agree with the other Bob, if your listening is going to be mostly via headphones, then maybe you don't want a multichannel receiver at all? A really good stereo setup or headphone amp may better suit your needs/listen habits.

Bob W

Thanks for the input. But, no, it won't make sense for me to get yet another separate high-end device, or stereo amplifier, or dedicated headphone amp. Again, the Denon is so good with my Sennheisers, I'd be perfectly happy as-is. Plus I can use it Internet radio, media player for music stored on my network computer, in addition to for home theater. I'd guess my listening will ultimately be about 10% headphones, 10% just music through speakers, 80% TV and Blu-Ray DVD home theater.

I understand the discomfort of headphones you mention. You will get over that, and view headphones as a lifesaver, if you fly very much and stump for one of the better noise-cancelling ones. You will be shocked at how much noise there is on a jet, once you take them off, and you'll never again travel without them. Just for everybody's FYI, I've tested all 3, the Bose Quiet Comfort 2 are the best for isolating you from all the chaos and turning a hellish trip into an actually perfectly tolerable experience. They are better than the Bose Quiet Comfort 3's, which sit *on* your ear, instead of sealing off your ears completely like the 2's do. And the Bose QC2's are oddly enough WAY better sound quality than the Sennheiser PXC-450's, at about the same price.

Jerry

 

[Lordoftherings]

Headphones abstraction.

Thanks for the input, Bob, since this is an indication that my methodology *might* be wrong. It's good to have the doubt, but I'm not sure this is the final word.

Namely, why would a brand committed to audio excellence show such indifference to what they output from a headphone jack? I'm not the only person in the world that wants to listen to headphones now and then, and find it absurd to think I have to buy another $2000 - $3000 worth of components to do so decently.

For what I hear from the Denon headphone jack is exquisite, and only the most la-dee of the la-dee-dah's could find the slightest fault with it. So as an added bonus, someone who buys the Denon partly to listen to headphone audio will also have a highly versatile multi-channel home video 7.1 receiver. One that I will have to at this time *assume*, since I don't yet have the speaker setup, will *at least* give the Yamaha a run for its money.

If this answer of separate circuitry is the full explanation, what I have to conclude based on my listening tests using headphones, and others' reviews of the Yamaha using speakers, is that Yamaha puts out the very best audio from its speaker terminals, and mediocrity from its headphone jack. And the Denon puts out superb audio from its headphones, and (-unknown in comparison-but hopefully also superb) audio from its speakers.

Since the Denon just hit the stores a few days before my purchase, I guess I probably *am* the only person in the world so far comparing the two in A/B tests. I'm limited to doing so via the headphones. I can instantly switch between the two receivers using the phones and readily compare how they presented the last 45 seconds of music. Even if I *did* have a hot 7.1 speaker setup, it would be very cumbersome to unhook one receiver from the speakers after listening to a passage, and instantly reconnect all the speakers to the other receiver so I could quickly hear the other one, etc.

I guess I am asking for expert comparison of the two based on this speaker output that is just not practical for me to do right now. I have a demanding full-time job that requires frequent travel, and it will be many, many months before I can do the recommended leisurely speaker shopping, etc.

It would be a shame to not be able to at least enjoy fantastic headphone audio in the meantime because I can't get a comparison from those who *do* have ready access to high-end speaker setups to answer what my fundamental question is ... in other words, how does this brand-new Denon compare with this 8-month old Yamaha, at $600 cheaper? These are the obvious two competing models, given the current lineup from both manufacturers.

Because if my headphone experiment is any guide, the Denon is by far the better choice. If its speaker output is more or less identical to that of the Yamaha, then it is clearly the better choice because of its much cheaper price and no-comparison headphone output for those of us who enjoy state-of-the-art headphone listening now and then, in addition to our home theater use.

Regards,

Jerry

Ok Jerry, let's take this one point at a time.

First, did you try the headphone jack of the Onkyo TX-NR906?
Because, if you did not, you just might be missing big time.
The Onkyo TX-NR906 has a state-of-the-art headphone amp stage.
It has received the deluxe treatment with discrete class AB output stage.
And this output stage is following a NE 5532 (Dual Operational amplifier), a very well regarded op-amp coupled to a discrete differential pair in front for low impedance headphone, resulting in a very low distortion and low noise with a high gain. It is one of the very best headphone amp with state-of-the art parts, and build to professional standard quality to the preamp outputs.
Not only that, but it also has it's own volume with passive CMOS switch using Onkyo own R2S 15211FP custom chip.
Now, if you did not try this one yet, I highly recommend you do do so, you just might change your entire preconception about the two receivers that you been experimenting with.

Second, my name is Bob (but you already knew that), and there is another Bob here, just above this post and yours (Bob Wilcox).
Now, both of us (both Bobs) agree that if you're really are into headphones listening (by the way, there is a new scientific report where it is proven that headphone listening is damaging for your ears and can result in permanent aural handicap for life. It also has been established that headphones listening is anti-social and out of touch with reality. And I'm not making that up Jerry.
Anyway, just think about it for two seconds) then you should get a specially made integrated amplifier with top notch quality from it's headphone jack.
Or a reference head amp.

As for the third point, well, you pretty much said it best. It's all in there in your own very quote of my post.

Best regards,

Bob

 

[jerrymcdon]

by the way, there is a new scientific report where it is proven that headphone listening is damaging for your ears and can result in permanent aural handicap for life. It also has been established that headphones listening is anti-social and out of touch with reality. And I'm not making that up Jerry.

OK, I'm outta here. I know stubborn, obnoxious, closed-minded idiocy when I encounter it.

I tried to have an intelligent conversation and ask intelligent questions. But I see I've posted in the wrong thread, if not on the wrong forum, period. These are RX-Z7 owners uninterested in hearing that their precious babies may just possibly not be the cutest in the world.

I don't know how many times I have to answer that I am not interested in getting a $2000 device just to listen to headphones. Because I don't listen to headphones all that often. I made it abundantly clear that I was using headphones right now just to evaluate general overall audio quality.

Out of touch with reality? From people who may obsessively watch 7.1 home video playing "Transformers", etc.?

Headphones anti-social? Oh, God, this has become sick. Why not ask anybody's neighbors in an apartment complex who has a 7.1 speaker system blasting away who the true anti-socials are. The neighbors will 100% vote to have the headphone guy as their next-door neighbors, whom they'll universally describe as "polite", "thoughtful" and "considerate" in comparison to the 7.1 jagoffs....

Again, I'm outta here, I'll locate some experts who don't have to be told the same freaking thing 50 freaking times before it finally sinks in.....

 

[Lordoftherings]

Ok Jerry, I was exaggerating, but there are some parts that are true about the damage that you can cause to your ears; it's mainly if you listen for more than few hours a day and if the volume is just a bit too high.

The part about anti-social was just a tease, I knew that you'll notice my bluff.
Don't feel bad about this, it was only a joke, quite obvious, I should say.

And you know Jerry, you're probably the exception more than the rule about the RX-Z7. I don't think that there are too many people here that put a big emphasis on the headphone jack of the RX-Z7, or if they do, they are enough satisfied with it.

I know what you said on your prior post, I read all the lines very carefully.
..."You listen with headphones about 10% of the time"...

LOL Jerry, that was only a joke, just an innocent joke. No more, I promess.
You got my word on this now.

Please don't go, I was serious 99% of all what I said to you so far. So, that's a pretty fair average, don't you think? And from now on it's 110%.
So, I'll give you my very best and sincere opinion to any question you still might have. But you have to be realistic (which I do believe you are) about the percentage of people in your case that compare these two very specific receivers from headphones litening to make a statement that probably affect less than 5% of the average owners of these two great receivers. Agree?

Sincere regards,

Bob

 

[bwillcox]

OK, I'm outta here. I know stubborn, obnoxious, closed-minded idiocy when I encounter it.

I tried to have an intelligent conversation and ask intelligent questions. But I see I've posted in the wrong thread, if not on the wrong forum, period. These are RX-Z7 owners uninterested in hearing that their precious babies may just possibly not be the cutest in the world.

I don't know how many times I have to answer that I am not interested in getting a $2000 device just to listen to headphones. Because I don't listen to headphones all that often. I made it abundantly clear that I was using headphones right now just to evaluate general overall audio quality.

Out of touch with reality? From people who may obsessively watch 7.1 home video playing "Transformers", etc.?

Headphones anti-social? Oh, God, this has become sick. Why not ask anybody's neighbors in an apartment complex who has a 7.1 speaker system blasting away who the true anti-socials are. The neighbors will 100% vote to have the headphone guy as their next-door neighbors, whom they'll universally describe as "polite", "thoughtful" and "considerate" in comparison to the 7.1 jagoffs....

Again, I'm outta here, I'll locate some experts who don't have to be told the same freaking thing 50 freaking times before it finally sinks in.....

Hey Jerry, given your preference for headphone listening and enjoyment of the sound through them when using the Denon receiver, I don't see that your decision is at all a difficult one. Keep the Denon and return the Yamaha.

As for "obsessively watching 7.1 home video", I prefer my home theater with its 11.2 home video capability, though I really didn't care that much for Transformers. Of course, I don't obsessively *watch* anything. My 2 year old projector still doesn't have 200 hours on its bulb. I actually prefer listening to music on my system

 

[bandphan]

OK, I'm outta here. I know stubborn, obnoxious, closed-minded idiocy when I encounter it.
Closed minded is your thinking

I tried to have an intelligent conversation and ask intelligent questions. But I see I've posted in the wrong thread, if not on the wrong forum, period. These are RX-Z7 owners uninterested in hearing that their precious babies may just possibly not be the cutest in the world.

You wouldnt know as you havent done a proper demo

I don't know how many times I have to answer that I am not interested in getting a $2000 device just to listen to headphones. Because I don't listen to headphones all that often. I made it abundantly clear that I was using headphones right now just to evaluate general overall audio quality.


That is the problem, not sound for making a choice
Out of touch with reality? From people who may obsessively watch 7.1 home video playing "Transformers", etc.?
Trolling

Headphones anti-social? Oh, God, this has become sick. Why not ask anybody's neighbors in an apartment complex who has a 7.1 speaker system blasting away who the true anti-socials are. The neighbors will 100% vote to have the headphone guy as their next-door neighbors, whom they'll universally describe as "polite", "thoughtful" and "considerate" in comparison to the 7.1 jagoffs....
Trolling

Again, I'm outta here, I'll locate some experts who don't have to be told the same freaking thing 50 freaking times before it finally sinks in.....

You find those headphone demo experts

 

[bwillcox]

[ranting deleted]

I made it abundantly clear that I was using headphones right now just to evaluate general overall audio quality.

[more ranting deleted]

There was one other thing that I intended to say but forgot to mention.

That is you really can't evaluate a multichannel AVR with a set of headphones for a vast majority of its features. As has already been pointed out, the headphone output circuits are independent of the rest of the "system" and pretty much all that listening with headphones will tell you is how well the headphone amp works with your headphones (and that may vary with different headphones). With just headphones you can't tell if it does a good job of everything else, which is mostly what you are paying for.

Given that, I would say that your evaluation is incomplete till you've hooked up some speakers and tried it that way as well.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Jerry, sorry for my humor, sincerely. Bob

Hi Jerry,

I'm sorry if I step a bit out of bound.

I want to make it up to you.

Here's a couple good links about Headphones:

1. Headphone - All in your Head (New product)
* http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/ultimate-gear/all_in_your_head/

2. Sennheiser HD238 Precision High Resolution Stereo Headphones (Review)
* http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/headphones/639-sennheiser-hd-238-precision-high-resolution-stereo-headphones.html

Cheers,

Bob

 

[czubero]

z7 headphone amp

how is possible that a portable player has a better heaphone amp (cowon s9), than my z7. in stereo mode. I understand jerry, cause i live in a condo. I used an m audio s40 for testing.

 

[bandphan]

how is possible that a portable player has a better heaphone amp (cowon s9), than my z7. in stereo mode. I understand jerry, cause i live in a condo. I used an m audio s40 for testing.

how do you know that it does?

 

[Lordoftherings]

^ Ya, how do you know that?

 

[lesmor]

Z7 on Home demo

I am unfamiliar with the operation of the above and have read the manual but find it is not clear as to how to operate this amp as it does not detail step by step.
My question is when you switch on the Test tone the amp cycles through the speakers so quickly there does not seem to be a way to lock onto a speaker to set the level with my SP Meter. also when you increase decrease the volume using the remote it only seems to affect the Master volume.
Also how do you save any changes you make , I have read reviews which suggested the reviewer lost settings because he never saved them, I am aware of the Memory buttons would this be what he meant?
I am sure more questions will follow and some one will say read the manual, do you guys think the manual is good?
Regards
Andy

 

[Lordoftherings]

RX-Z7 Headphone Setup! And YPAO speaker's Setup.

I am unfamiliar with the operation of the above and have read the manual but find it is not clear as to how to operate this amp as it does not detail step by step.
My question is when you switch on the Test tone the amp cycles through the speakers so quickly there does not seem to be a way to lock onto a speaker to set the level with my SP Meter. also when you increase decrease the volume using the remote it only seems to affect the Master volume.
Also how do you save any changes you make , I have read reviews which suggested the reviewer lost settings because he never saved them, I am aware of the Memory buttons would this be what he meant?
I am sure more questions will follow and some one will say read the manual, do you guys think the manual is good?
Regards
Andy

Hi Andy, and Wecome to Audioholics.

Yep, you can always check in your RX-Z7s manual.
But you can also read this thread from the beginning, and also check the thread of the Yamaha RX-Z7 at AVS Forum.

1. Are you referring to the headphone amp of the RX-Z7? Nothing to learn there, just plug your set of headphones and enjoy. Plus you have several DSP modes that you can experiment with.

2. That's why they said Yamaha YPAO is fast and trouble free.
There is probably a Manual Test Tone that you can set, just check in your manual, again. There is no lock up for the channel you want???

3. If you are using the Master Volume level on your remote, of course it will adjust the Master Volume, duh. You have to use the individual channel's level.
Again, check in your manual.

4. To save your settings or your changes, you have to use the Lock Up feature. Again, check in your manual. And NO, the Memory buttons don't have anything to do with it. Unless you are setting (programming) a set of individual functions per source with their own individual audio surround mode, which is totally irrelevant (unrelated).

*** Andy, no offense, but do you really own the RX-Z7? I'm asking because you seem absolutely confused about it's various and basic operations.
And like you suggested yourself, might be a good idea to read your manual.
[The manual can't be that bad, isn't?]

Cheers,

Bob

 

[lesmor]

Hi Andy, and Wecome to Audioholics.

Yep, you can always check in your RX-Z7s manual.
But you can also read this thread from the beginning, and also check the thread of the Yamaha RX-Z7 at AVS Forum.

1. Are you referring to the headphone amp of the RX-Z7? Nothing to learn there, just plug your set of headphones and enjoy. Plus you have several DSP modes that you can experiment with.

2. That's why they said Yamaha YPAO is fast and trouble free.
There is probably a Manual Test Tone that you can set, just check in your manual, again. There is no lock up for the channel you want???

3. If you are using the Master Volume level on your remote, of course it will adjust the Master Volume, duh. You have to use the individual channel's level.
Again, check in your manual.

4. To save your settings or your changes, you have to use the Lock Up feature. Again, check in your manual. And NO, the Memory buttons don't have anything to do with it. Unless you are setting (programming) a set of individual functions per source with their own individual audio surround mode, which is totally irrelevant (unrelated).

*** Andy, no offense, but do you really own the RX-Z7? I'm asking because you seem absolutely confused about it's various and basic operations.
And like you suggested yourself, might be a good idea to read your manual.
[The manual can't be that bad, isn't?]

Cheers,

Bob

DOH
Just the response I was hoping to avoid
1. Nowhere did I mention headphones

2.No offence taken but do you have a Z7 as you do not seem to know that it does indeed have a have a Manual test tone which is what my question relates to.

3. you mention using the lock up feature there is no reference to that in the manual unless the US model is different to the UK Model

wow never considered reading the manual , hope you dont mind me saying and considering this is my first post and stand the chance of being banned I have read I lot of your posts and found them to be very patronising to the questions being asked we can not all be as knowledgeble, about everything like you, but Hey maybe I am just too stupid to own a Yamaha
And yes I do own one why else would I be here DOH

 

[Lordoftherings]

Cool man, my deepest respect.

DOH
Just the response I was hoping to avoid
1. Nowhere did I mention headphones

2.No offence taken but do you have a Z7 as you do not seem to know that it does indeed have a have a Manual test tone which is what my question relates to.

3. you mention using the lock up feature there is no reference to that in the manual unless the US model is different to the UK Model

wow never considered reading the manual , hope you dont mind me saying and considering this is my first post and stand the chance of being banned I have read I lot of your posts and found them to be very patronising to the questions being asked we can not all be as knowledgeble, about everything like you, but Hey maybe I am just too stupid to own a Yamaha
And yes I do own one why else would I be here DOH

LOL, Lesmor, good response to my DOH post.

I'm sorry man, I didn't mean to be such a fart.

1. About headphones, I absolutely didn't know, as you seem to be referring to one of the last post, and they were all about headphones!

2. And I was just kidding as for you having the RX-Z7 in your true possession, duh. You'll never asked a question or more in it's own thread, about it, if you did not have it in the first place (unless you were considering the purchase of one).
And NO, I don't have an RX-Z7, but I know a thing or two about it.
It is my passion to know about all receivers, and this for a very long time.
* Sorry about the Test tones (Automatic or Manual), but I really believe that all receivers do have a Manual Test tone, duh.
As for lock in to a certain channel, many receivers do, but some don't.
And as far as I know from the Z7, I just don't know. But I'm positively certain that it does, and that it will be mentioned in your UK instruction's manual from your Z7. (I hope it's not a trick question ).

3. The Lock In feature should be available in your RX-Z7, this I'm positively certain (UK model or North American model).
It should be in the Advanced Features section, or something similar, "Lock Up Settings", or similar.

*** Come on now, you, banned! For what? Just for asking some honest and simple questions about a Yamaha receiver? Don't be so silly now. LOL.
Or is it because you did not read your manual in the first place.
Ya right, we are working for the Police of manual reading!!! LOL.

The word "patronising" is cut out from my dictionary, so it does not exist anymore for me.

And again, don't be so silly, I don't know everything. But I do try though.

And I own several Yamaha audio components, and for many years too. My Yammy RX-V2092 A/V Receiver, I owned since 1997, and I still use it. Also my Yamaha CDR-S1000, CD Recorder, I owned for several years, but it did broke down on me about last year. Those god dam CD-R transports, they are a pain in the butt to maintain properly. I did everything, but I finally give up on it. Piss me off. Needs a new transport, just to costly, so I use my computer now, but it is not the same as my lovely deceased CDR-S1000.

So if you are really that stupid, I must be the Lord of stupidity.

And of course you do own one (RX-Z7), but I don't.

After all, I might be the one, that would end up being banned.

* Note: They don't have good audio forums in the UK?
I do post on few of the better ones, like AVForums.

Cheers and best regards to you Lesmor,

Bob

P.S. Hey man, do respond, and ask your questions, you shall receive the answers. If not from me, certainly from a more knowledgeable person here at Audioholics.

 

[EvanescoZ7]

New firmware update is out!!!

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/down/index.html