Niles Home Audio retrofit.

[Barretwm]

I purchased a home that was built mid 2000’s, it has a Niles home audio system installed that still powers up but doesn’t work well. The home still has the audio panels on the wall. There are built in speakers in multiple rooms and outside. Is there anyway to update the hardware in order to use the speakers in the multiple zones preferably with remote access?

 

[TLS Guy]

I purchased a home that was built mid 2000’s, it has a Niles home audio system installed that still powers up but doesn’t work well. The home still has the audio panels on the wall. There are built in speakers in multiple rooms and outside. Is there anyway to update the hardware in order to use the speakers in the multiple zones preferably with remote access?

Not nearly enough information to answer the question.

 

[Barretwm]

Sorry Niles 2x ZR-8630AV
2x SF-245 amps
Appears to be 10 total zones.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TLS Guy]

Sorry Niles 2x ZR-8630AV
2x SF-245 amps
Appears to be 10 total zones.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You have a 12 channel receiver and a 70 Volt system in the mix. We are not going to sort this at long range. If you are new to this, you need a professional installer, to see how all these speakers are configured and what is connected to what.

 

[lovinthehd]

The quality of the speakers may be part of it (or all of it). What are they? Do you like the general idea of the multi-room distributed home audio ?

 

[highfigh]

I purchased a home that was built mid 2000’s, it has a Niles home audio system installed that still powers up but doesn’t work well. The home still has the audio panels on the wall. There are built in speakers in multiple rooms and outside. Is there anyway to update the hardware in order to use the speakers in the multiple zones preferably with remote access?

Is it one of their multi-channel amplifiers, like the one in the photo? What isn't working properly?

No more updates or support, Niles was sold, the buyer was sold and then, Niles was closed. It's too bad- they had some good products but the bean counters got their way. Again.

 

[jinjuku]

Pics of the audio closet would help.

 

[TLS Guy]

Sorry Niles 2x ZR-8630AV
2x SF-245 amps
Appears to be 10 total zones.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We would need a lot

Sorry Niles 2x ZR-8630AV
2x SF-245 amps
Appears to be 10 total zones.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have looked into this further.

This is a strange installation. It has an AV distribution receiver. It has 12, 30 watts amps. It also have six pairs of RCA preouts, so 12 preouts in all.

This from your list is likely paired from these preouts, with that 12 channel 70 volt power amp.

So my guess is a probably correct is that all the speakers are 70 volt via 70 volt transformers at the speakers.

You don't state how, many speakers you have, but the 70 volt system allows for selection of multiple speakers from one amp, and also allows apportioning the power depending on the speaker taps selected. The taps are labelled in watts and the mathematical sum of the watt taps should closely approximate to the power output of the driving amp.

70 volt systems are unusual in domestic situations. Your house obviously has some or all the speakers on a 70 volt system, or that 12 channel 70 volt power amp would not be there.

70 volt systems are primarily intended for outdoor PA systems and commercial institutions like bars and shopping malls. Quality is generally low.
A big attraction is that as the voltage is high, current is low, and cheap bell wire can be used, and usually is to string the speakers together. In addition the wire runs can be daisy chained from one speaker to the other. This makes installation cheap and quick with the bonus of being able to set the proportion of power going to each speaker. So it is a popular and widely used system. However it is not a high quality sound distribution system as you have found out.

So, my strong hunch is that your system is low audio quality as it is a commercial audio distribution system.

I would put big money on my hunch being correct.

The bottom line is that I don't think you can alter this system without going to huge expense. Everything would have to be replaced including the speaker wire. I doubt these rough and ready installers put the speaker wire in conduit, so you would end up taking walls apart.

I personally think these distributed audio systems of any stripes in homes are just a dreadful idea. I am not alone in this as these systems have a negative impact on the value of homes.

My advice, is that if you want AV or just audio in your home, then build decent systems in rooms where you want it.

 

[highfigh]

Sorry Niles 2x ZR-8630AV
2x SF-245 amps
Appears to be 10 total zones.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you sure the model number begins with SF? If it's from Niles, it would be SI-245.

 

[highfigh]

We would need a lot


I have looked into this further.

This is a strange installation. It has an AV distribution receiver. It has 12, 30 watts amps. It also have six pairs of RCA preouts, so 12 preouts in all.

This from your list is likely paired from these preouts, with that 12 channel 70 volt power amp.

So my guess is a probably correct is that all the speakers are 70 volt via 70 volt transformers at the speakers.

You don't state how, many speakers you have, but the 70 volt system allows for selection of multiple speakers from one amp, and also allows apportioning the power depending on the speaker taps selected. The taps are labelled in watts and the mathematical sum of the watt taps should closely approximate to the power output of the driving amp.

70 volt systems are unusual in domestic situations. Your house obviously has some or all the speakers on a 70 volt system, or that 12 channel 70 volt power amp would not be there.

70 volt systems are primarily intended for outdoor PA systems and commercial institutions like bars and shopping malls. Quality is generally low.
A big attraction is that as the voltage is high, current is low, and cheap bell wire can be used, and usually is to string the speakers together. In addition the wire runs can be daisy chained from one speaker to the other. This makes installation cheap and quick with the bonus of being able to set the proportion of power going to each speaker. So it is a popular and widely used system. However it is not a high quality sound distribution system as you have found out.

So, my strong hunch is that your system is low audio quality as it is a commercial audio distribution system.

I would put big money on my hunch being correct.

The bottom line is that I don't think you can alter this system without going to huge expense. Everything would have to be replaced including the speaker wire. I doubt these rough and ready installers put the speaker wire in conduit, so you would end up taking walls apart.

I personally think these distributed audio systems of any stripes in homes are just a dreadful idea. I am not alone in this as these systems have a negative impact on the value of homes.

My advice, is that if you want AV or just audio in your home, then build decent systems in rooms where you want it.

I guess you should have looked further- the Niles distributed audio amp model numbers indicate the number of inputs (8), Zones (6, stereo) and power/channel (30 minimum).If 30W/channel isn't enough, each zone has a pair of RCA jacks for feeding power amplifiers.

Also, where did you see that this is a 70V amplifier? It's not. The specs show power into 4 and 8 Ohms. The SI-245 amplifiers are stereo, outputting 45W/channel (assuming the SF was a typo and I have yet to find an SF-245).

You're assuming, again. 70V is used wherever it's needed.

We get it. You like your system and think just about everything else is crap. It's not for you to decide, it's for the people who have something, to decide for themselves.

These were used in houses, as well as commercial spaces. You may not be familiar with the types of homes, though- they tended to be in the 10,000 ft² and larger variety, or when a dealer had a client who wanted what these could do for them and nobody ever said these systems would provide the ultimate in sound quality. When someone who has a lot of money wants something that will provide music throughout a house, this was a decent way to accomplish that. One system that I worked on (after it had been installed) contained 14 stereo Bryston power amps for the audio distribution and IIRC, it had at least 6 Radio Shack ground loop isolators but that system was Crestron, not Niles. In another house that covered roughly 19,000 ft², the system included 40 channels of distributed audio. I also installed two Niles ZR-4630 amplifiers in a Harley-Davidson dealership in Kenosha, WI- again, it's for distributed audio, not the ultimate listening experience.

If you look at the rear panel in the photo, you'll see that it only has composite video connections and that places it in the late-'90s/early-2000s time for introduction and it wasn't sold by the typical stereo store, setup was far more complex than most of them wanted to deal with.

Specifications - Niles ZR-8630AV Installation & Operating Manual [Page 83]

Niles ZR-8630AV Manual Online: Specifications. ZR-8630AV Audio/Video MultiZone Receiver AMPLIFIER SECTION Continuous Average Power Output (FTC) All Channels: 30W per channel min. RMS at 8 ohms, any two channels driven from 20Hz to 20kHz with no more than .05% THD. 37W per channel min.

www.manualslib.com

 

[TLS Guy]

I guess you should have looked further- the Niles distributed audio amp model numbers indicate the number of inputs (8), Zones (6, stereo) and power/channel (30 minimum).If 30W/channel isn't enough, each zone has a pair of RCA jacks for feeding power amplifiers.

Also, where did you see that this is a 70V amplifier? It's not. The specs show power into 4 and 8 Ohms. The SI-245 amplifiers are stereo, outputting 45W/channel (assuming the SF was a typo and I have yet to find an SF-245).

You're assuming, again. 70V is used wherever it's needed.

We get it. You like your system and think just about everything else is crap. It's not for you to decide, it's for the people who have something, to decide for themselves.

These were used in houses, as well as commercial spaces. You may not be familiar with the types of homes, though- they tended to be in the 10,000 ft² and larger variety, or when a dealer had a client who wanted what these could do for them and nobody ever said these systems would provide the ultimate in sound quality. When someone who has a lot of money wants something that will provide music throughout a house, this was a decent way to accomplish that. One system that I worked on (after it had been installed) contained 14 stereo Bryston power amps for the audio distribution and IIRC, it had at least 6 Radio Shack ground loop isolators but that system was Crestron, not Niles. In another house that covered roughly 19,000 ft², the system included 40 channels of distributed audio. I also installed two Niles ZR-4630 amplifiers in a Harley-Davidson dealership in Kenosha, WI- again, it's for distributed audio, not the ultimate listening experience.

If you look at the rear panel in the photo, you'll see that it only has composite video connections and that places it in the late-'90s/early-2000s time for introduction and it wasn't sold by the typical stereo store, setup was far more complex than most of them wanted to deal with.

Specifications - Niles ZR-8630AV Installation & Operating Manual [Page 83]

Niles ZR-8630AV Manual Online: Specifications. ZR-8630AV Audio/Video MultiZone Receiver AMPLIFIER SECTION Continuous Average Power Output (FTC) All Channels: 30W per channel min. RMS at 8 ohms, any two channels driven from 20Hz to 20kHz with no more than .05% THD. 37W per channel min.

www.manualslib.com

It was just my luck that I found an SF245 70 volt amp. If it is SI then that is not a 70 volt amp.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Yes, this is strictly a 8/4 ohm system, no 70 volt is involved.

There is nothing about the Niles system itself which allows for external control to be included or any direct upgrade path for the Niles system. But, that doesn't mean that you can't use what is there and add some new sources to it as you would like or to swap out the Niles for something else which does offer a different interface. This was done 'right' it looks like with, likely, cat-5e pulled to all the 'keypad' locations, and standard speaker wire pulled from the head end (where your Niles pieces are) to each speaker. This means you can swap it out with something different, if you would like.

Or, you can just add a couple of networked sources like a Sonos Port or a Wiim audio player. You can plug those into the RCA connections on the back of the Niles and they can play back to all the speakers in your home.

The one real downside is that this unit wasn't designed for any other control beyond the keypads which were already installed. Those keypads and that unit are very proprietary to one another and there isn't a external control interface available to the system that I see available at all. No networking or additional connectivity which can be used to run the system. MAYBE the computer interface through the front would allow some control by a third party system and that may work okay. Maybe.

You could rip out the Niles stuff and put in something a bit more modern. www.htd.com for example has distributed audio systems which are similar, but are a bit more updated if you would like.

Frankly, I'd just keep what you have, if it works, and add a Sonos or Wiim to the mix and call it a day. You walk into a room and select your source, and adjust the volume at the keypad, then use your phone to do everything else. When you're done, you just hit the 'off' button on the keypad and you're done.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, this is strictly a 8/4 ohm system, no 70 volt is involved.

There is nothing about the Niles system itself which allows for external control to be included or any direct upgrade path for the Niles system. But, that doesn't mean that you can't use what is there and add some new sources to it as you would like or to swap out the Niles for something else which does offer a different interface. This was done 'right' it looks like with, likely, cat-5e pulled to all the 'keypad' locations, and standard speaker wire pulled from the head end (where your Niles pieces are) to each speaker. This means you can swap it out with something different, if you would like.

Or, you can just add a couple of networked sources like a Sonos Port or a Wiim audio player. You can plug those into the RCA connections on the back of the Niles and they can play back to all the speakers in your home.

The one real downside is that this unit wasn't designed for any other control beyond the keypads which were already installed. Those keypads and that unit are very proprietary to one another and there isn't a external control interface available to the system that I see available at all. No networking or additional connectivity which can be used to run the system. MAYBE the computer interface through the front would allow some control by a third party system and that may work okay. Maybe.

You could rip out the Niles stuff and put in something a bit more modern. www.htd.com for example has distributed audio systems which are similar, but are a bit more updated if you would like.

Frankly, I'd just keep what you have, if it works, and add a Sonos or Wiim to the mix and call it a day. You walk into a room and select your source, and adjust the volume at the keypad, then use your phone to do everything else. When you're done, you just hit the 'off' button on the keypad and you're done.

WRT "There is nothing about the Niles system itself which allows for external control to be included", do you mean that it can't be controlled by URC, Crestron, etc? Sure, it can. It has an IR port on the rear (far better than using actual IR sensors, from experience) but because of when it was designed and what was available at the time, it doesn't have RS-232 control.

I have seen equipment that's easier to set up, but it can be adjusted using the manual (it's available online).

The cheap way to control this with an app would be to find a Harmony hub and program it, but a more long-term solution would be to use URC or something else.

 

[BMXTRIX]

WRT "There is nothing about the Niles system itself which allows for external control to be included", do you mean that it can't be controlled by URC, Crestron, etc? Sure, it can. It has an IR port on the rear (far better than using actual IR sensors, from experience) but because of when it was designed and what was available at the time, it doesn't have RS-232 control.

I have seen equipment that's easier to set up, but it can be adjusted using the manual (it's available online).

The cheap way to control this with an app would be to find a Harmony hub and program it, but a more long-term solution would be to use URC or something else.

Interesting, that could very well be the case. I assume there is some 'global' controller with IR features that allow for that.

There is a serial port on the front of the unit as well which may allow for some level of RS232 control as that appears to be how it is all programmed, so it may have a full set of control parameters available to it. I know I had a client who wanted app control of his rooms for source and volume which I was able to put it for something like an older RTI system or something like that. I hate these old systems because they will put them out and they will have iPhone/Android support on day one, but the manufacturer will discontinue them a few years down the line and drop app support, and then the customer is left without a solution. It sucks for them. Still another reason I continue to love Crestron. They have supported their app for around 10+ years at this point I believe.

 

[highfigh]

Interesting, that could very well be the case. I assume there is some 'global' controller with IR features that allow for that.

There is a serial port on the front of the unit as well which may allow for some level of RS232 control as that appears to be how it is all programmed, so it may have a full set of control parameters available to it. I know I had a client who wanted app control of his rooms for source and volume which I was able to put it for something like an older RTI system or something like that. I hate these old systems because they will put them out and they will have iPhone/Android support on day one, but the manufacturer will discontinue them a few years down the line and drop app support, and then the customer is left without a solution. It sucks for them. Still another reason I continue to love Crestron. They have supported their app for around 10+ years at this point I believe.

All of the universal remote systems will operate this and any that don't have the command codes can learn them. THAT would be a royal PITA, though.

Unfortunately, the serial port is for programming only, using their proprietary software. BTW- this came out well before the first iPhone.

Ever see the Marantz Matrix system? That was another one that didn't last long.

 

[Trebdp83]

Keypads can have IR for control of the receiver using its remote controller from a given Zone but are not Keypads still essential for powering ON each Zone and powering OFF each or ALL Zones?

At best it seems one can control the receiver functions with a remote controller after powering ON a desired Zone and then use an app on a Smart device for a selected streamer that is connected to the network to control it.

Maybe pull the Niles system out and get something like a Juke-8 for single Smart device control of each and every Zone? Not sure how many Zones are present here.

Juke Audio | Whole Home Audio System | Multi-Room Streaming Amplifier

Stream audio throughout your home under full control with Juke Audio. Our multi-room amplifier distributes clear sound across an entire home/building.

www.jukeaudio.com

 

[highfigh]

Keypads can have IR for control of the receiver using its remote controller from a given Zone but are not Keypads still essential for powering ON each Zone and powering OFF each or ALL Zones?

At best it seems one can control the receiver functions with a remote controller after powering ON a desired Zone and then use an app on a Smart device for a selected streamer that is connected to the network to control it.

Maybe pull the Niles system out and get something like a Juke-8 for single Smart device control of each and every Zone? Not sure how many Zones are present here.

Juke Audio | Whole Home Audio System | Multi-Room Streaming Amplifier

Stream audio throughout your home under full control with Juke Audio. Our multi-room amplifier distributes clear sound across an entire home/building.

www.jukeaudio.com

These don't need keypads, they can be controlled via remote control and IR receivers, or someone could use a hub as I mentioned and connect the output from that to the IR port on the Niles.

One Niles multi-channel amp could control up to 6 zones although more speakers can be used by adding amplifiers to the line outs- some are fixed, some are variable, so the speakers that need more power can receive it. When I installed the 4 input version at a Harley dealership, we used three larger power amps in addition to the amplifiers in the two Niles amplifiers, which were linked.

If these work, adding sources is easy and fortunately, the Niles R8 is still available on Ebay for a low price.

 

[Trebdp83]

While certainly still useful, I think many prefer a more modern digital setup with network connection that can be controlled entirely from a single device and app. But, a cheaper solution here as mentioned is connecting a streamer with analog outputs to the Niles and use the streamer controller app along the Keypads and Niles remote controller if equipped.

 

[highfigh]

It would be great if the OP would explain what "doesn't work well" means.