Newbie Sub Question - Pre Out vs LFE

[Innocent bystander]

Hey guys,

Thanks for reading. I recently picked up a set of Wharfedale Diamond 10.7, also ordered an SVS SB12-NSD sealed sub to just fill in the bottom. I am listening 99% music... 1% HT, but am willing to sacrifice HT SQ for music. I really only stream movies, so the soundtracks are not really the highest of quality.

I have an Outlaw 1050 receiver where I am using the pre outs for the mains to a Hafler XL-280. I use an HRT Streamer DAC feeding the 5.1 channel inputs on the Outlaw to bypass any bass or treble or processing of any type. When the mains are set to large on the Outlaw, there is no signal on the LFE channel in stereo mode anyway. Here's the question.... Finally.

Is there a preferable way to hookup the sub? Should I use Y-connectors on the preamps out and adjust the sub using it's controls? Or should I suck it up and set the mains to small so I can use stereo mode with LFE? The Outlaw does have highly regarded bass management with their ICBM processing system, but it only crosses over (at the lowest) to 60hz. I am hoping to achieve the BEST quality for music, so losing the LFE channel for movies is nothing I am at concerned about. Has anyone been down this road?

Thanks in advance for any guidance. This board has the most knowledgeable participants, so I figure someone has had this quandary before.

 

[lovinthehd]

LFE is the .1 channel in content that has such. Some units will employ bass management for 2ch stereo, some don't, but not sure when you use "LFE" in stereo mode if you're talking about a 2ch source or one with actual LFE content (.1), or if you want bass management for redirected bass. I'd cross those speakers at least at 60 myself.

 

[Innocent bystander]

You assumed right. I guess I need to figure out how the Outlaw handles the LFE/Sub Out when in stereo from a 2ch analog source. Let's assume it does just act as a 2ch crossover at 60hz. Would you use the sub out or full range pre-outs and let the sub crossover network handle those duties?

 

[lovinthehd]

You assumed right. I guess I need to figure out how the Outlaw handles the LFE/Sub Out when in stereo from a 2ch analog source. Let's assume it does just act as a 2ch crossover at 60hz. Would you use the sub out or full range pre-outs and let the sub crossover network handle those duties?

From a 2.0 source it doesn't handle LFE, as it doesn't exist, it may handle redirected bass. Hopefully in 2.1 mode it would pass on the .1 channel if your source had it. Why on earth would I use a full range pre-out for a sub?

PS most subs do not have a crossover at all, low pass filters only for the most part, particularly when you've connected via a pre-out.

 

[Innocent bystander]

I believe it some analog to digital conversion, strips away the bass portion and then turns it back into analog sending the bass put the LFE terminal and the rest of the signal out the main speaker pream outs. In my mind, the A to D to A processing cannot do anything good to the source.... So I am leaning on splitting the preamp outs and just setting the sub setting in HT to 'off'.

Agree that the sub doesn't have a crossover as it is just a low pass filter on the line level side, but considering the ability to tune it, it is more like an active crossover, just not a band pass.

 

[Innocent bystander]

Why not have my cake and eat it too..... I think if I were to employ a line level switch box into the mix I could select between having the full range pre-outs or the LFE out feed the subwoofer. I would have to manually flip the switch when going between music and movies, but it seems to me that this is the most elegant way to do this.

I spoke with Outlaw and they were very honest that the older 1050 did not have the excellent bass management of the receivers that replaced it. I sense I knew that from listening through the AUX input with my source, I honestly was disappointed. When bypassing that and using the 5.1 direct input for my stereo source, I hear a tremendous difference. Unless I am willing to make concessions (and I am not), I believe that the source switching idea is what I need to do to solve my problems.

Has anyone ever done anything similar?

 

[j_garcia]

the 1050 is relatively old, so no it didn't have great bass management. Nothing to be honest about, it is fact. It was a very good receiver at the time.

LFE is a DEDICATED channel with its own content. Redirected bass based on a x-over setting is different and they are both combined on the sub pre-out. Even the 1050 is capable of that, however for straight 2ch, pretty much all receivers will work this same way when the mains are set to large. Many current receivers have the ability to do it both ways however, something that came probably years after the 1050.

 

[Innocent bystander]

After a little bit of listening, I am not sure there is enough difference to warrant changing anything from the way I have it. I have gone back and forth between using the stereo preamp inputs on the sub and using the LFE channel only (and setting speakers to small). The Wharfedales do a great job down to about 40hz, so the sub is really filling in that very bottom octave.

I agree that the LFE is a dedicated channel on 5.1 (again, just a fact), but I know some of the newer Outlaw rigs have their ICBM bass management algorithm and I hear it is really special. That said, I am still enough of a two channel purist that I like to keep that sort of processing away from my music listening. I don't care on movies since I am not a videophile at all. It is just nice to have good sound during a movie... but I am not dedicated enough to take more than a few simple db tests and adjust the output of the channels accordingly. That is the extent to which I care about movies... so this has actually been perfect for me.

The reason I have stuck with the Outlaw is that it is a VERY capable two channel rig. The amplifiers (which I don't actually use) are incredibly musical with sufficient power for most anything. The preamp is also very very good. Good enough that I used it to replace the highly regarded Hafler DH-110 preamp with no perceptible difference at all (when using the 5.1 Direct inputs on the Outlaw). It serves my purpose perfectly and feel as though any "upgrade" would not be very good in terms of economies of scale.

Here's an upside though. The SVS has a VERY nice crossover network that seems as effective as any I have heard. I decided to use the high pass side of it to feed my Hafler XL280. It really seems to have opened things up since the Hafler is just idling and the Wharfedales are operating in their sweet spot. I can't say enough good things about that subwoofer. Big props to this site for their stunning accurate review of the unit. Certainly steered me in the right direction for my purchase.