Newbie here for some help on everything really. Jumping into HTS world.

[itsAllGreek]

I have just recently left the "dark ages" of home theater when I upgraded from a 0 def TV (Sony Videoscope XBR Big Screen 52") that I have had since I purchased my house in '96 to a 55" Samsung flat screen TV. Now I want purchase a home theater system. I am new to this world and need all the help I can get. I have been reading various opinions about how much one should spend and what are good speakers and receivers. I realize that this is all subjective like ice cream. I guess I'm just a little over whelmed now that I learned that there was more than vanilla out there .

I had my house pre wired for a HTS even though I have a vaulted ceiling in the family room where this system will go and it is open to the kitchen. I will need to have speakers mounted on the walls

After looking at different speakers and listening to some at local retailers I was going back and forth between BestBuy who showed me 2 different products.

1. Bowers & Wilkins MT-50 satellite speaker system which is $250 a piece for each (5 total) 4" satellite speaker= $1,250 + Bowers & Wilkins 10" 200 watt Sub for $650 or the REL T-5 sub for $700 for a total of $1,900 (give or take 50 depending on the sub)

2. Martin & Logan Motion 2 3 1/2" speakers at $200 a piece for a total of $800 with the Motion 6 3 1/2" center channel speaker $300 = $1,100 + Martin Logan "Dynamo" 600 watt 10" Sub $700 or the REL T-5 sub for $700 that they all seem to love at BestBuy for a total speaker expense of $1,800 (or $1,850 with the REL)

They recommended for this setup the Denon AVR 2113ci receiver for $649 and I noticed that Denon has since come out with a new line and has another model in that price range that is the same price which is the AVR-X2000 for $649. It's interesting to me that at BestBuy all the sales dept seem to favor Denon for what I was trying to do yet the other store that I will go into next pretty much said Denon was an inferior brand to Pioneer and pushed the Elite series to me.

The systems at BestBuy total approximate price system .1 $2,550 & .2 $2,500. Pretty similar price.

The second Home Theater Store recommended a Sunfire HRS satellite system with (2) HRS Sat4 + (2) HRS SAT4BIP + 1 HRS SAT 4C center channel speaker + HRS 8" sub for a total of $1,688 + Pioneer receiver (below) $499 = $2,187 This is a system that they said retailed at $4,000 that they had on sale. I did notice when I looked online that it was mostly with the 10" sub that it was around that $4,000 range but it was still intriguing that it was more bang for the buck. The only thing I don't like about this store is they don't give you the model numbers of the equipment and only the sku. This seems to be a way to get you not to compare and automatically makes me distrust the salesperson but that is just me. Also, the 1st time I went into the store another salesperson tried to sale me the Martin & Logan MLT2 satellite system for $1000 when you could buy it pretty much every where else for around $350.

The receiver they recommended is the Pioneer Elite VSX-43 $499 and the 1st sales person I didn't trust recommended the Sony ES STR-DA1800ES for 699.99 which is a 7.2 system the others are 7.1

The total approximate price for this option is $2,187 with Pioneer receiver and $2,387 with the Sony ES receiver option.

I'm also a little confused about the Sub selection. When I was in BestBuy they did an awesome job with the REL T5 sub showing it's versatility with a music CD they played that was pretty impressive. With that being said I'm probably more interested in getting some "boom" when I watch movies and even though I do listen to music I would not consider myself an audiophile. But what the REL did even compared to the Martin Logan sub and B&W sub was pretty impressive and it is the same price.

I also have read about the SVS subs and have looked at their website and they seem pretty impressive. I haven't been able to find a show room in Dallas that has those for me to listen to. I would very much appreciate any help in the choices that were given to me at the 2 different show rooms as well as any suggestions that you might have for me to look at.

I also want to add about my "sub" that I plan (if possible) to hook it up with a wireless adapter so that I could put it behind my couch in the back of the room. Thoughts on that would be appreciated as well.

Thank you in advance and I'm looking forward to hear what you guys think.

Stephen

 

[Grador]

Well there's a lot of information to cover, too much really. When getting into HT it's easiest/best to ask more specific questions as they come to mind. This allows for more targeted and specific information to be conveyed.

The first thing though: never let anyone tell you what speakers are best for YOU. The only way you'll be happy in the end is if you listen to many things and form an opinion on what you like. If you come back and say "I liked X Y and Z" we can suggest that you may also like P and Q as they sound similar.

As for electronics, it's usually best to look at those after speakers. They are far less critical, and if your speakers are "easy to drive" then pretty much anything but the cheapest will do you just fine.

Your best bet on a subwoofer is usually one of the internet brands.

 

[itsAllGreek]

Thanks Grador. Is SVS considered an internet brand? I guess I'm a little unsure of what that exactly means.

Thanks again for the response.

 

[Grador]

SVS is an internet brand [more properly referred to as Internet Direct or ID]. They sell direct to customers and not through storefronts. In general they are highly regarded.

 

[shadyJ]

Those are ridiculous prices for satellite speakers, and those subs are awful. Satellite speakers are not serious speakers, and micro-subs are all pretty meh for the most part, you really should skip them. You just can not get a full sound from small speakers, especially in a medium to large room. That's not a great price for that Denon receiver as well, the going online rate is $500 to $550. Take my advice, stay away from Bestbuy. The markups on their audio cables are just horrible as well. You can do better than SVS than subs for what you say you want also.

Your idea about placing the sub behind the couch actually isn't bad. If it is right behind the couch, that is called near-field placement, and there are a lot of advantages to this. My recommendation would be to try all the spots that you can place the sub and keep which one sounds the best. Use bass frequency sweeps to listen for the best response, but it really helps to have an SPL meter for this.

Here is a $2500 shipped system, complete with wireless subwoofer, that will blow any of those away.
Ascend CBM-170 front left/right and surrounds: $660
Ascend CMT-340 center: $328
Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX w/ wireless transmitter bundle: about $850
Denon AVR-2113CI: $550

Total: $2388 shipped

Another suggestion:
Hsu Ultra 15 5.1 package (speakers and wireless 15" subwoofer): $1964
Denon AVR-2113CI: $550

Total $2514

The speaker mounts you will want are the Viseosecu side-clamping mounts, and they are pretty cheap too. Get your HDMI and speaker cable from monoprice or Blue-jeans to not get ripped off by electronic stores markups. These accessories will cost a fortune at any store around you, so get them online. The exception is speaker cable which can be had very cheaply from Home Depot. Some other speakers that look like they could be very good bang-for-the-buck are the HTD Level threes, specifically their bookshelf and center speaker. Give the Infinity Primus speakers a look to for extremely high bang-for-the-buck, specifically the p363 towers and c351 center with some p163s as surrounds.

 

[itsAllGreek]

Picture of HT room

Thanks shadyJ,

That was a very detailed response and I appreciate you spending the time to help me out. I'll definately consider all of those options. I guess my only question about internet speakers is the fact that I don't think I can hear those first hand and from what I've ready everyone says you should listen to the speakers first. If I can't hear the speaker first how will I be able to judge the sound or quality?

I decided I should probably post pictures of the HT room to give a better idea with what I'm working with.

At first I was thinking that mounted speakers on both sides were the way to go. For some reason when they wired the room in the back they wired the room for the speakers to be on the ground in the back of the room. Should I have the installer raise the speakers (in the back) to make them the same height as the ones in the front over the TV or is it better to get standing speakers that sit on the floor in the back or is that type of configuration possible or plausible? In the back by the corner a standing speaker wouldn't be an issue as far as obstruction to "room activity flow" but on the other side where the light switch is and where there are chairs for the bar as well as a walk path I'm not sure if that's the best place for a HT speaker. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Front of the room:

[/url]Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch[/IMG]

Back of the room (behind the couch)

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Back of the room on the other side where walk way is:

Back of the room on the other side by the walkway and bar stools:

[/url]Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch[/IMG]

View of front from above from open hallway upstairs:

[/url]Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch[/IMG]

View of the back from above (a large subwoofer could go somewhere over in the corner where the speaker "wire" is located and not obstruct an walking or movement:

[/url]Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch[/IMG]

 

[shadyJ]

I hate to say this, but, if I am looking at those pictures and arrows right, your intended speaker placement is very poor with respect to the viewing angle of the TV, but you probably already realize that. First of all, the spots for the front speakers are very high, and this is not going to do the sound stage any favors. And yes, the rear speaker plates are waaay too low, in fact, you would want the surround speakers to be at a height where your front speaker plates are at. Ideally you would want your front speakers to be at ear level height, so it's almost like the installer reversed the surround and front speaker jack heights.

I will say you can make the whole situation a lot less awkward by placing the TV on the fireplace mantle, and placing some bookshelf speakers in the shelves on either side of the fireplace, like where the TV is right now. That would fix both the front speaker height problem and the viewing angle problem. As for the rear speakers, yeah you do want to raise those speaker jacks, a lot. I would raise them above standing height, maybe about 7' off the ground. Angle the speakers to be aimed toward the listening position.

As for the speaker's sound quality, I can assure you the speakers I recommended will sound better than the satellite speakers at BestBuy. The comparable speakers at BestBuy would be the higher-end Deftech or B&W bookshelf speakers, if your BestBuy has a Magnolia dept., and you might prefer those. But, as your intended speaker placement is right now, I wouldn't even worry about the sound quality, because whatever speaker you get won't sound optimal in those locations, and you are going to lose a lot anyway. If you can not change those speaker positions, I would go for some speakers with some tightly controlled directivity, like the Hsu speakers or some Klipsch speakers, as they will be able to project sound without losing as much power and clarity, and will also be less affected by acoustic reflections from nearby surfaces. Many factory direct (aka internet direct) speaker and sub makers like the ones I mentioned will let you try out the speakers for a month and will give you a full refund if you don't like them enough to keep em, so you can try these speakers out. Only problem is, you will be out the shipping costs.

By the way, I don't even see a good place for the center speaker at all, so you might just consider skipping the center and using a phantom center speaker, which is simply using the front right and left speaker to produce the center channel content.

 

[itsAllGreek]

C'mon man...you're supposed to give me good news not bad.

I already knew with the vaulted ceilings and the open area to the kitchen and the hallways that I wouldn't get the "true" HTS experience but figured it would still make watching movies, games and listening to music more enjoyable than before with nothing but the old XBR Sony 0 Def.

As far as the TV angle, the TV is mounted and actually turns about 15 degrees more which is better than my viewing angle before also. I know the setting for the TV isn't optimum but that's the only option I have. The house design didn't allow for it to go over the fireplace and be in the center so I'm stuck with the configuration as is. As far as the speakers in the back that are on the floor the installer that came over said he could easily raise the level to that which is equal to the speaker positioning in the front or to the 7' feet you said would be better so I will have him do that.

The center speaker issue is one that I didn't notice until after I had someone build that enclosure for the TV. He built cabinets and asked if I wanted to have the sub below the TV which I said no to but he failed to mention about the center speaker. In hindsight that falls on me. He mentioned that he thought I would just put it where the other A/V equipment would go. I just measured in the compartment and even if I push the cable box all the way over to the wall and with the measurements for a Pioneer or Denon being about 17.1" it still doesn't leave enough room for either of those center speakers that you mentioned. It's off by about 1-3 inches. So I guess that's the next thing I would need to figure out.

I think I would try one of those internet speaker solutions to see if I liked them. The Hsu look nice but again I would need to figure out about the center speaker and I don't think I would want to go without.

Since you used the Denon in all of your examples do you prefer them over the Pioneer Elite series? The sales person at the Magnolia dept of Bestbuy that you mentioned said that the Pioneer would have more power in case I ever wanted to use it for a 2nd zone and gave a warmer sound but others I've talked to seem to prefer Denon.

Would you consider the Hsu better than the Sunfire HRS system as well?

 

[slipperybidness]

I suspect that you may have your setup reversed from what the previous owner had it. Meaning your front was his back. Still not optimal, but that would make more sense as far as why the jacks are where.

 

[Grador]

First, I agree with most everything shady said. I will add that you need to keep in mind that none of those dollar figures he gave you included the cables, which aren't a huge cost, but can add up no less.

As for receivers: The denons will do you just fine on power, and I prefer them to pioneer. Personally I have only owned yamaha [though will probably go to denon next, for a specific feature]. Yamahas are also fantastic choices, I've got two of them that are ~15 and 14 years old respectively running like the day they were purchased.

The power difference between receivers that aren't low end [low end ones have a pretty large lack of power] is really minimal in the grand scheme of things. For each doubling of power you gain 3 db of output. Realistically if one middle of the road receiver doesn't give you the output you want, then no receiver will and you'll be looking for an external amp.

 

[itsAllGreek]

Actually I am the original owner. I had the builder wire this room and the upstairs game room for a home theater but since I didn't know "specifically" how to tell him to do it...I guess he just did it. Raising the back speakers to 7' shouldn't be a problem from what the installer that looked at it said.

Thanks.

 

[itsAllGreek]

Thanks Grador,

That makes sense to me in those terms.

 

[shadyJ]

You can use a regular bookshelf speaker on its side as a center speaker. On some models you would want to rotate the tweeter 90 degrees for this, for the best horizontal dispersion. The Hsu speaker can do this.

With that layout you won't get a great soundstage, but you can still have a nice full sound. One thing I would do is try the system with and without a center. If the center improves the overall sound, keep it, but it it ends up sounding awkward, send it back, whichever you prefer.

Grador gave you some good advice regarding the receivers, like he said, the Pioneers won't really be anymore powerful than the Denon. As usual, the guy at BestBuy is wrong. Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon, they will all be good, I would just go for the one that has the features you think would be most useful. Personally I would go with the Denon, it might have the most sophisticated room correction EQ, Audyssey MultiEQ XT, so it might be able to make the speakers sound the best. In that enclosed compartment I would skip Onkyo, they tend to get a little hot and need some ventilation.

Yes, the Hsu system will roll over that Sunfire system. First, the Sunfire speakers don't have enough extension to meet the sub below what is considered a localizable frequency point for the subwoofer (they roll of at 95 hz according to its specs). In other words, the subwoofer will have to play at a frequency so high that it will draw attention to itself or else you will have a upper bass gap where no sound will be produced. Second, both the Hsu speakers and sub are a lot more efficient. Your receiver won't have to work as hard to the Hsu speakers to reach the same loudness level as the Sunfire speakers. The Hsu sub does not have to draw as much energy from its amp as the Sunfire sub either, and will probably be able to play with less distortion for the same loudness level thanks to its larger cone size (over 2x cone area). Relating to an above point, the receiver won't get as hot either, and this is better for its long-term reliability. Third, the Hsu setup will have more dynamic range than the Sunfire setup, meaning it will stay clean at louder levels.

The advantages that the Hsu system have all come with their larger size. Small speakers always have to make compromises. There is a general rule when it comes to speakers- you can only have two of the following: small size, bass extension, dynamic range. Pick which two you want as a designer, but you can not have all three.

 

[itsAllGreek]

I bought the HSU speakers tonight. I accidentally ordered the Hybrids instead of the Ultra package and when I called the company they connected me with a salesperson and convinced me that the Hybrids was the best choice. They said the VTF sub is more powerful than then ULS as well as a larger sub and since I have plenty of room I decided to keep it. They also said with the configuration of my room with the vaulted ceilings and the openness to the kitchen that the VTF sub would be better for that as well. Because the VTF is not wireless they recommended they Soundcast company to wirelessly connect the sub. SoundCast: SubCast

I ordered the VideoSecu mounts as well since I am having the installer come on Friday. I have my house pre wired to all of the outlets so do you still think I need to get the speaker wire you suggested?

I also had the cabinet maker come over today and he is going to fix the cabinet below the TV so I can put the center channel there so that will work out as well.

Unfortunately, I already bought a couple of those "over priced" HDMI cables that you mentioned but will order some of the ones you suggested for my other connections. I had read on Amazon that the Amazon Basics HDMI cables are good for the price as well. Would they compare to the mono price or Blue-jean cables?

I've read in this forum about the Panamax and also was pitched them by the sales people at BestBuy for the "power conditioner" that runs close to $600. Are those really necessary? I want to protect my investment but don't want to go overboard.

As far as the receiver is concerned I was looking at the Denon AVR-2113CI as I mentioned before but now it seems that the newer Denon's are in stock. It looks like the Denon AVR-X2000 is the replacement of the 2113CI. Looking at the specs that I don't fully understand it seems like they are pretty similar. Would either of those be sufficient?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[shadyJ]

I bought the HSU speakers tonight. I accidentally ordered the Hybrids instead of the Ultra package and when I called the company they connected me with a salesperson and convinced me that the Hybrids was the best choice. They said the VTF sub is more powerful than then ULS as well as a larger sub and since I have plenty of room I decided to keep it. They also said with the configuration of my room with the vaulted ceilings and the openness to the kitchen that the VTF sub would be better for that as well. Because the VTF is not wireless they recommended they Soundcast company to wirelessly connect the sub. SoundCast: SubCast

They were right to recommend the VTF15h, if that is the sub you ended up with, it will be more powerful than the ULS-15. The wireless transmitter they recommended is a bit on the pricey side though. Some people have used these Rocketfish sub transmitters with success, you might take a look at them. If you have interference issues, then go for some pricier ones, like these Outlaw OAW3 wireless kits.

I ordered the VideoSecu mounts as well since I am having the installer come on Friday. I have my house pre wired to all of the outlets so do you still think I need to get the speaker wire you suggested?

For wiring inside walls, the installer might insist you use CL2 rated wiring, which isn't a bad idea, as it is less flammable and non-toxic and so is safer for in-wall runs. You can get cheap CL2 wiring from monoprice.com here. You can also get some good speaker jack plates from monoprice here. Outside of the walls it doesn't matter what wire you use, as long as it is a sufficient gauge. I would use 14 AWG for everything. Make sure your installer is using at 14 AWG wire for those surround speaker runs especially.

Unfortunately, I already bought a couple of those "over priced" HDMI cables that you mentioned but will order some of the ones you suggested for my other connections. I had read on Amazon that the Amazon Basics HDMI cables are good for the price as well. Would they compare to the mono price or Blue-jean cables?

HDMI cables are all the same. None are better than the other. You will want larger gauges for long runs, but I don't think you will be doing any long HDMI runs. Blue jeans are good, so is monoprice, and they are both fairly priced. The only thing I don't recommend is paying MSRP for Monster cable, as it is worth about a tenth of what they charge. Same thing with Radio Shack and other name brand cables, they are all over-priced.

I've read in this forum about the Panamax and also was pitched them by the sales people at BestBuy for the "power conditioner" that runs close to $600. Are those really necessary? I want to protect my investment but don't want to go overboard.

Do not buy that conditioner, that is a big rip off. The power supplies in your components are just fine, they definitely do not need help. If the electricity in your area is really erratic, it might be worth thinking about, but even then a $600 conditioner is absurd. If you want to protect your electronic components from power spikes and brown outs, look into getting an Uninterruptible Power Supply, like they have for computers, look for one rated for a good bit over whatever power you are going to be drawing. Bestbuy has been giving you very poor advice from the very beginning.

As far as the receiver is concerned I was looking at the Denon AVR-2113CI as I mentioned before but now it seems that the newer Denon's are in stock. It looks like the Denon AVR-X2000 is the replacement of the 2113CI. Looking at the specs that I don't fully understand it seems like they are pretty similar. Would either of those be sufficient?

Either of those would do fine. Unless there is a feature you like that the new ones has, you won't be able to tell the difference.

Let us know how it goes, and don't hesitate to ask any more questions if you have them.

 

[shadyJ]

One more thing, remember to aim all the speakers at your listening positions. This will make a big difference.

 

[itsAllGreek]

OK I'm going to buy my receiver tomorrow and I'm sure I'm over thinking it. I'm waffling on which receiver to go between the Pioneer Elite series VSX-70 VSX-70 - <b>7.2 Channel CI Focused Home Theater Receiver</b><br> Featuring 4K Ultra HD Upscaling and 3D Compatibility | Pioneer Electronics USA
or the Denon In Command Series with the AVR-X2000
DENON US)

Both receivers are the new model for the series and are similar price but I guess each salesperson I talk to convinces me that the other model is better.

 

[shadyJ]

If it were me, I would go for the Denon. I think the Audyssey room correction EQ will be better than Pioneer's MCACC. Since your room and viewing angle is a bit odd, I think you would want the best room correction equalization you can get. The Pioneer receiver would be good too though. I think you would be happy with either one. Remember to run the room correction equaliztion on whatever model you get, I think it could really help you.

 

[itsAllGreek]

OK thanks. The sales person only peaked my interest because he said that Pioneer actually created the room correction EQ (something that I of course couldn't verify so I took it with a grain of salt).

It's just interesting to me b/c it seems that Denon is a favorite in a lot of forum sites such as this.

I guess the only thing that made me wonder is this newer Denon doesn't have a hardwired wifi or even an adapter. I called Denon and they said you have to use an additional router and create a "bridge" which seems like something that should be included when you pay that much for a receiver...but I am still leaning towards Denon. He did mention that the "Audyssey" feature is used in some capacity with NASA. From what I've read about it, it can be somewhat complicated in application so I'm thinking I would have to play with it a little bit.

I got the HSU speakers in the mail today. That sub box is HUGE lol. Good thing I have a lot of room in the back. Looking forward to hearing it tomorrow.

Thanks

 

[ACsGreens]

As someone that is in the CI industry this is what can be very frustrating. I'm not directly referring to the OP but this is a very common issue that really, in the long run, hurts the home owner. Apparently at some point electricians, contractors and the dog trainer decided they could run speaker wire and just build that into their portion of the project. I know a lot of great electricians, and even some that are audioholics (smirk) that do things the right way, but most do not. Many people feel that they do not want to pay a local CI company to handle this, since you know, the builder can do it. Well, the OP did not really know where things should go, and there is nothing wrong with that, but shame on the builder. Instead of acknowledging he did not know squat about proper a/v setup, he said ok and this is what the OP ended up with. Now we have new construction, with poor speaker placement, poor TV placement and the end solution is patchwork, not an ideal setup. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there is no decent way to get surround in there. The TV is all the way to the right, so either the center and right will be next to each other or the center will throw voice from the mantle, which makes no sense. Once again, not the OP's fault but it really grinds my gears. I wish you the best of luck with this and hope you can find a solution that brings you years of happiness, truly.