New stereo integrated amplifier.

[Kha-Jinn]

Hi everybody, in the last 3 weeks or so I was thinking non-stop about what would be a good stereo amplifier for my system.
I think it could be helpful to clarify a few points, first of all I'm not looking for someone to decide for me what to buy. I understand that my ears and tastes should guide me in this, so what I'm looking for are just some first hand experiences and hints that could help me to define a better picture of what would fit best my needs.
I own a pair of Boston Acoustics A26, I love these little fellas, their tonal balance pleases me a lot and although I want to change them for a pair of towers I'm not really looking forward for that at the moment, first I want to buy all the other components. What I love most about the Bostons is their ability to let you listen music for many hours never being tiring or boring.
The room is 4.5m * 3.5m (15ft * 11ft), the listening position is at 1.6m (5ft) and the speakers are at 1.5m(4.5ft) from each other.
As sources I have my computer for digital music and movies connected through optical cable (I'm not interested in an AVR, music takes 90% of my time), a cheap Samsung DVD player connected through coaxial cable and a glorious Kenwood KT-6040 (I love my tuner). In the future I want to add a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC Esprit SB and I'm very tempted by Schiit Modi Multibit, so an integrated DAC in the amplifier is not strictly necessary.

These are the options I narrowed down at the best prices I found on stores that ship to my Country.

• Marantz PM6006: I had the PM6005 and I loved it, it has some nice synergy with the A26, indeed Mr. Ken Ishiwata helped with the tuning of Boston Acoustics' A-series. The PM6006 is an improved version of the PM6005, it has 2 optical and 1 coaxial input, slightly warm and smooth sound, really pleasant to listen to but the 45W output on 8Ohm makes it the least powerful of the group. Price: 330 Euros.
  
• Advance Acoustic X-i75: if you are not from Europe you probably never heard of this amplifier, it has a warm and musical sound, very smooth, it can be used as a pre or a final; it has optical, coaxial and USB (XMOS chip, wohoo!) inputs and 75W into 8Ohm. I'm not going to lie, I f*cking love its look. Price: 580 Euros.
  
• Yamaha A-S701: this thing is the reason I don't sleep anymore at night (metaphorically), I read all what available on the Internet about this amplifier and it looks like a real beast for less than $1000. It has 100W into 8Ohm, optical and coaxial inputs, sturdy build, big heatsinks, unique components made specifically for Yamaha, the sound has a lot of clarity and definition also going from the A-S700 to the A-S701 it should have gained in tonal balance, losing some of the brightness of the old model (at least this is what happened for sure on the A-S500/A-S501, not sure for this one). What stops from buying this is the 200 Euro more compared to the Marantz, not sure if it's worth it, and the fact that for some reason Yamaha stereo integrates, at least in the lower end of the market, have an aura of mistrust around them I can't really figure out why. Price: 560 Euros.
  
• NAD C356BEE: I think this amplifier needs no presentation, it's not less beefy than the Yammy, very warm sound, maybe too warm, it has no integrated DAC but the quality is amazing. I'm a bit worried for the tonal balance and the price is the highest of the group. Price: 630 Euros.
  

I hope you can help me in my choice, for who is wondering I have no way to audition any of these amplifiers, those are the best deals on Internet, average store prices are simply too high. To give an Idea, the store price for the Marantz is 550 Euros, the Yammy goes up to 799 Euros, the AA to 650 Euros and the Nad up to ∞.

 

[PENG]

It seems that we are getting this kind of questions about integrated amp choices a lot lately. Standard responses appear to be "just get a mid range AVR from Yamaha or D&M". The fact is, low power integrated amps like those do not offer any audible advantage, but cost much more in relative terms and most likely less power for real world use. Of the listed choices here, I don't know anything about Advanced Acoustic so my choice would be, Yamaha, Marantz, NAD in descending order. If price is not a factor, then I would go Yamaha, NAD, Marantz. For better value for the money, last year model AVRs such as the 7.1 channel RX-A1050, Denon AVR-X4200, will out perform those integrated, especially in power output.

Sorry, just can't resist, but you are welcome to ignore my last sentence.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think many of us at some point (probably earlier on in our hobby) would never consider an AVR over an Integrate Amp or pre-pro or stereo preamp.

But many of us have changed our views over time based on our experiences with all these components.

An integrated amp is nothing more than an AVR with most of its internal parts removed.

I would highly recommend a Denon or Marantz AVR with AirPlay & Bluetooth. The AVR will sound at least as good as any Integrated amp in the same price range.

Otherwise, I think the Yamaha and Marantz integrated amps are both safe bets.

 

[Swerd]

I have to agree with PENG. You are thinking way too much about this.

I think you are assigning way too much importance to the integrated amplifier (or receiver, or any other type) than is deserved. As long as an amplifier has enough juice to drive the speakers, with some extra power to allow for reserve head room, it should do well. Your Boston Acoustics A26 do not seem to be difficult to drive. The manufacturer suggests they be driven by amplifiers with 10-150 watts per channel.

Simple thinking suggests you decide strictly by the cost, Euros/total watts:
€2.80 – Yamaha
€3.15 – NAD
€3.67 – Marantz
€3.87 – Advance Acoustics

I do understand that price/watt ignores other aspects. Does the amp provide enough connections, is it (and its remote control) easy to use, is the appearance suitable, and is the manufacturer's reputation for reliability good?

I find it interesting that, in the USA, Yamaha has an excellent reputation and NAD does not, while in Europe the opposite seems to be the case. This may come more from advertising and dealer sales efforts than it comes from actual user experience.

PENG is also correct in his opinion that AVRs can deliver as much or more power at a lower price, without any sacrifice in sound quality. Again, I think the dealers are at fault for the misinformation that stereo integrated amplifiers provide better sound quality than similarly powered AVRs. They do cost more, but that's where the difference stops. The price difference is due entirely to the scale of manufacturing. Many more AVRs are made and sold, allowing the manufacturers to scale up production and reduce their cost per item. If more stereo integrated amps were sold than AVRs, they would cost less to produce and sell than AVRs.

 

[Bucknekked]

I think many of us at some point (probably earlier on in our hobby) would never consider an AVR over an Integrate Amp or pre-pro or stereo preamp.

But many of us have changed our views over time based on our experiences with all these components.

An integrated amp is nothing more than an AVR with most of its internal parts removed.

I would highly recommend a Denon or Marantz AVR with AirPlay & Bluetooth. The AVR will sound at least as good as any Integrated amp in the same price range.

Otherwise, I think the Yamaha and Marantz integrated amps are both safe bets.

I agree audio is a journey and many of us have walked the same path and seen some of the same scenery along the way. I follow suit here with Peng, Swerd and AcuDefTechGuy, I don't put any advantage to an integrated amp over the power section in an AVR. I understand the allure and temptation, but the facts don't support the notion in 2017.

If you'd like to make an integrated amp choice anyway, that's fine. I would start with the Yamaha. AH did a review of the AS 801 and found it to be an outstanding device. I almost made the same choice when I joined the forum : an integrated amp. I was dissuaded from that choice and I have been very happy looking at that decision in hindsight.

I don't see in your post what you are using today. Do you mind sharing what you are using today for amplification? And what are you hoping to improve with your purchase of an integrated amp?

Buying new stuff is always fun, or at least it should be fun. I hope you are enjoying the process

 

[j_garcia]

Integrated amp, the way to go is used IMO. You will often find them for a lot less because they are sort of niche, and they tend to be in good shape more often than an AVR.

I personally love integrated amps, but the reality is I normally need more features than what most integrateds offer, which is often more of a flexibility thing than outright features. As mentioned, power for price will generally be similar, though I've found that integrated amps tend to have higher quality amplification than AVRs. That does not mean enough of a difference in power to create an audible improvement in most cases though.

 

[Kha-Jinn]

Thanks everybody for your opinion, an AVR could be a way to go, with my budget the best I can get is a Denon AVR-X2300W, a Yamaha RX-V681 or a Onkyo TX-RZ710, I'll start to look for these too.

Going back to the main topic I see the A-S701 is a well respected piece of equipment, which kind of confirm all the good I found on this amplifier. I think paired with the Schiit Modi Multibit should reach very good results in music playing.

@Bucknekked I didn't specify what I'm using right now because I'm quite sure no one ever heard of it, the Alientek D8. It's a small FDA (Full Digital Amplifier) that sounds impudently well for its size. Out of the box it's a bit bright and edgy, but upgrading the power adapter makes wonders. Maybe you saw the FX Audio D802 on Z-Reviews, it's available on Amazon.com too, that is a very similar amplifier that uses the same STMicroelectronics chip family. The D802 has the STA326 while the D8 has the STA328, there are minor differences between the two.

If you are wondering why I'm looking for a new amplifier despite the fact I like my D8 that much it's because even if I think D-Class is getting better day after day (look at Denon PMA-50, NAD D 3020, Peachtree Nova 300, NuPrime IDA 16 and so on, just to name some) and these cheap Chinese FDA are the way to go for whoever is looking for a cheap amplification with good performance and digital inputs, I feel like AB-Class has still the edge for smoothness and musicality (all of this rigorously IMHO).

 

[Bucknekked]

@Bucknekked I didn't specify what I'm using right now because I'm quite sure no one ever heard of it, the Alientek D8. It's a small FDA (Full Digital Amplifier) that sounds impudently well for its size. O

Kha-Jinn
You are correct. I have not had the chance to learn about the Allentek D8 yet in my audio journey. That's no slight to the product, I simply have not heard of it yet. Any product that performs "impudently well" is one worth learning about however. That description made me smile.

I wish you great success in your amplifier journey, whatever you choose to purchase

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks everybody for your opinion, an AVR could be a way to go, with my budget the best I can get is a Denon AVR-X2300W, a Yamaha RX-V681 or a Onkyo TX-RZ710, I'll start to look for these too.

Going back to the main topic I see the A-S701 is a well respected piece of equipment, which kind of confirm all the good I found on this amplifier. I think paired with the Schiit Modi Multibit should reach very good results in music playing.

@Bucknekked I didn't specify what I'm using right now because I'm quite sure no one ever heard of it, the Alientek D8. It's a small FDA (Full Digital Amplifier) that sounds impudently well for its size. Out of the box it's a bit bright and edgy, but upgrading the power adapter makes wonders. Maybe you saw the FX Audio D802 on Z-Reviews, it's available on Amazon.com too, that is a very similar amplifier that uses the same STMicroelectronics chip family. The D802 has the STA326 while the D8 has the STA328, there are minor differences between the two.

If you are wondering why I'm looking for a new amplifier despite the fact I like my D8 that much it's because even if I think D-Class is getting better day after day (look at Denon PMA-50, NAD D 3020, Peachtree Nova 300, NuPrime IDA 16 and so on, just to name some) and these cheap Chinese FDA are the way to go for whoever is looking for a cheap amplification with good performance and digital inputs, I feel like AB-Class has still the edge for smoothness and musicality (all of this rigorously IMHO).

Where did you get the phrase FDA (Full Digital Amplifier)? Class D isn't digital. You need analog for your speakers It can handle digital inputs and provides analog amplification....but that's about it.

 

[Kha-Jinn]

FDAs are amplifiers that work on digital signals, there is no DAC between the digital input and the chip, in this case the STA328, also there is an ADC stage between the analog input and the power chip. If I got it right, the output of the chip is filtered like a class D.
The main difference is that you feed an analog signal to a regular class D and a digital signal to an FDA. The output is always analog otherwise drivers can't work, never said that class D stands for digital, I know it's called like that just because it comes after class C.

Here you can find more information on this specific chip, but there are more.
http://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/cd00043329.pdf

 

[Mark of Cenla]

I have the same Boston Acoustic speakers and an Onkyo A-9050 integrated amp. To me they are a match made in heaven. I use them in my man cave / home office / spare bedroom. The DAC in the Onkyo sounds quite good with disc players. Peace and goodwill.

 

[PENG]

Where did you get the phrase FDA (Full Digital Amplifier)? Class D isn't digital. You need analog for your speakers It can handle digital inputs and provides analog amplification....but that's about it.

Can you get the Denon AVR-X3200W or Yamaha RX-A1050 (last year model) for roughly the same price as the Yamaha A-S701? If not, then I would say go with the A-S701.

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-A1050-7-2-Channel-MusicCast-Bluetooth/dp/B00YMN6FIM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489102757&sr=8-1&keywords=yamaha+RX-A1050
https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-S701BL-Natural-Integrated-Amplifier/dp/B00MXUCR5G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489102801&sr=8-1&keywords=yamaha+A-S701
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B011HNXIAM/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1489102825&sr=8-1&keywords=denon+avr-3200&condition=new

In North America the difference between them are within $100. I wouldn't recommend the X2300W because it does not have pre-outs.

 

[<eargiant]

For whatever it's worth I just ordered a Yamaha A-S801 for a secondary system. Personally, I would never- ever consider a comparably priced AVR unless I needed multi channel capabilities and all the bells and whistles. But that's me.

 

[lovinthehd]

FDAs are amplifiers that work on digital signals, there is no DAC between the digital input and the chip, in this case the STA328, also there is an ADC stage between the analog input and the power chip. If I got it right, the output of the chip is filtered like a class D.
The main difference is that you feed an analog signal to a regular class D and a digital signal to an FDA. The output is always analog otherwise drivers can't work, never said that class D stands for digital, I know it's called like that just because it comes after class C.

Here you can find more information on this specific chip, but there are more.
http://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/cd00043329.pdf

When I looked up your amp it was described as class D....sorry to imply you thought digital meant class D, but many do think just that. Will look into these "digital" amp chips....

 

[Bucknekked]

For whatever it's worth I just ordered a Yamaha A-S801 for a secondary system. Personally, I would never- ever consider a comparably priced AVR unless I needed multi channel capabilities and all the bells and whistles. But that's me.

eargiant:
I have been watching and reading about the A-S801 since I came to this forum. I don't need an amplifier, I just want another amplifier. You can be of great service by giving us a review. Maybe a little A/B testing. Some measurements perhaps. I would be thoroughly interested in how it performs for you. The Yamaha has been on my short list and it would be great to read a first hand account. I may not need an amp, but we can all dream !

 

[<eargiant]

eargiant:
I have been watching and reading about the A-S801 since I came to this forum. I don't need an amplifier, I just want another amplifier. You can be of great service by giving us a review. Maybe a little A/B testing. Some measurements perhaps. I would be thoroughly interested in how it performs for you. The Yamaha has been on my short list and it would be great to read a first hand account. I may not need an amp, but we can all dream !

Sure, I'd be happy to as long as you can wait two weeks. I wanted it in silver but the dealer didn't have one in stock so he placed an order. I will not be able to pick it up until next Saturday.

I'll probably start a separate thread and post my impressions with some internal/external pictures. As for measurements, I think this guy did a pretty good job

http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/yamaha-a-s801-amplifier-review

 

[VMAT4]

Maybe the ELAC Element Integrated amplifier is worth consideration?

 

[sharkman]

I'll be the contrarian one. I have an old integrated amp from the early 1980's, a Harman Kardon PM625. It puts out 20 wpc. I compared it to a Denon AVR 3801(from about 2001) in pure stereo mode. For sound reproduction at moderate to medium levels, they both had good frequency response. For imaging, the HK wiped up the floor with the Denon. This was with small bookshelf speakers from Tannoy, the DC4.
On one track with Dianna Krall, her piano was mic'd to present the higher keys to the right and the lower to the left of the sound stage. The Denon re-created none of that, and there was nothing wrong with the Denon functionally.

Now, the group think in this forum is that all amps sound the same, and this simply is not so. AVR's try to be an all-in-one solution, but they are best at recreating the digital realm of multiple channel movie reproduction.

As for your integrated amp short list, I'm a fan of Nad once you replace the pre-out jumpers with some good quality cables. That can open the sound up quite nicely. But really, if you like your old Marantz, you can't go wrong with one of them.

 

[Verdinut]

I'll be the contrarian one. I have an old integrated amp from the early 1980's, a Harman Kardon PM625. It puts out 20 wpc. I compared it to a Denon AVR 3801(from about 2001) in pure stereo mode. For sound reproduction at moderate to medium levels, they both had good frequency response. For imaging, the HK wiped up the floor with the Denon. This was with small bookshelf speakers from Tannoy, the DC4.
On one track with Dianna Krall, her piano was mic'd to present the higher keys to the right and the lower to the left of the sound stage. The Denon re-created none of that, and there was nothing wrong with the Denon functionally.

Now, the group think in this forum is that all amps sound the same, and this simply is not so. AVR's try to be an all-in-one solution, but they are best at recreating the digital realm of multiple channel movie reproduction.

As for your integrated amp short list, I'm a fan of Nad once you replace the pre-out jumpers with some good quality cables. That can open the sound up quite nicely. But really, if you like your old Marantz, you can't go wrong with one of them.

What's wrong with jumpers? By adding cables, you just increase resistance.

 

[PENG]

I'll be the contrarian one. I have an old integrated amp from the early 1980's, a Harman Kardon PM625. It puts out 20 wpc. I compared it to a Denon AVR 3801(from about 2001) in pure stereo mode. For sound reproduction at moderate to medium levels, they both had good frequency response. For imaging, the HK wiped up the floor with the Denon. This was with small bookshelf speakers from Tannoy, the DC4.
On one track with Dianna Krall, her piano was mic'd to present the higher keys to the right and the lower to the left of the sound stage. The Denon re-created none of that, and there was nothing wrong with the Denon functionally.

Now, the group think in this forum is that all amps sound the same, and this simply is not so. AVR's try to be an all-in-one solution, but they are best at recreating the digital realm of multiple channel movie reproduction.

As for your integrated amp short list, I'm a fan of Nad once you replace the pre-out jumpers with some good quality cables. That can open the sound up quite nicely. But really, if you like your old Marantz, you can't go wrong with one of them.

That defies physics, but that Denon 3801 may be defective. The Denon 3800 series performed very well against integrated amps that costs more, that's confirmed by more than one bench test.

I have compared my 3805 (4 years newer than the 3801 I assume) with my separate amps including my Halo A21 many times, with other people too. No clear winners, though I am sure under some scenarios (source material, very difficult to drive speakers, spl et.), one can detect some minute difference and prefer the A21, can't say that for sure though.