NEW DISCOVERIES ABOUT HEARING LOSS ?

Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
wow good article even more better for me that feels 16 bit cd is enought that have only 96 db maybe a format with even less db would be better lol
The dynamic range available to a format doesn't really have any bearing on playback levels.

One should also bear in mind that the SPLs discussed in the various studies mentioned by that article are far beyond the scope of home audio.
 
F

Floyd Toole

Acoustician and Wine Connoisseur
The first article, without references, is a mixed bag. The hearing conservation guidelines cited are public-domain information and they apply to workers who are exposed to loud sounds five days a week, every week for a lifetime. They do NOT prevent hearing loss. The criteria by which these exposure levels and times were developed allow for hearing loss, but attempt to preserve enough that, at the end of a working career, normal conversational speech at 1 m distance is possible. Hi-fi hearing is long gone.

The workers engaged in such a hearing conservation program need to be tested on day one, so that lawyers have some defense if unexpected hearing loss is claimed later in their careers or tours of duty. It is considered acceptable for hearing loss to accumulate up to 25 dB in both ears at the 1kHz, 2kHz and 3 kHz audiometric frequencies. This means that one's dynamic range has been reduced by those amounts!. Small sounds are gone. In practical terms this translates to a loss of about 10% understanding of entire sentences, about 50% misunderstanding of monosyllabic “PB” words (words that are ambiguous because of similar sounding consonants) during conversation at normal voice levels, in the quiet, with persons one meter apart (Kryter, JASA 1973). And this is considered to be an acceptable situation −“normal” hearing. Further losses from 25 to 40 dB are described as “slight”. Really? For whom?

This is what your friendly audiologist is concerned with, not the ability to hear the finer details of music.

Hearing damage can occur as a result of many normal recreational or domestic activities like shooting, carpentry, mowing the lawn, chain-sawing, listening to personal music systems and so on. Power tools are noisy, kitchen blenders are noisy, and impact sounds like driving nails can generate very high momentary sound levels. Playing in a band, even a symphony orchestra, can be hazardous. Going to movies, rock concerts, and discos must be factored in. Over time it all adds up, and the cumulative effect is hearing loss, the amount depending on the sound levels and the exposure times. – it even has a name: “sociocusis” to differentiate it from occupational hearing loss. It is not practical to track the noise exposure resulting from casual activities like these so it is difficult to be dogmatic about what is or is not “safe”. The notable exceptions are extremely high sound levels produced by nearby guns, explosions, jet and rocket engines, etc. A single exposure to these sounds can produce permanent damage. However, not to be forgotten is that these accumulated exposures add to any occupational noise exposures.

So it is not new knowledge to say that presbyacusis (the statistical average hearing loss as a function of age) is not due to age. That, to be kind, is obvious. It is understandable that men experience higher losses than women - who has the noisy hobbies? Decades ago some scientists visited a tribe in Africa that lived a very quiet life. Their hearing was remarkable, and they could converse over large distances outdoors in near mumbles. So, if one grows old in a quiet environment it is highly probable that good hearing will be sustained over many years. However, that is not how we live our lives, and to accumulated damage as a result of noise exposure, one must add damage from ototoxic drugs, including NSAIDs, over the counter pain and inflammation medications (naprosin sodium/Aleve did it to me). Some prescription drugs are as damaging as a nearby gunshot. Instant, permanent, loss.

New data relate to our binaural hearing processes that allow us to separate multiple sounds in a complex environment, and to separate the sound source from reflections in a room. The findings indicate that these capabilities can be degraded without any change in our audiometric thresholds. This is disturbing.

Nothing is forever, so do what you can - musician's earplugs are highly recommended - while you can.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
This Old House had an episode with someone who was there specifically to address hearing protection on the job and they measured the sound from several common tasks related to construction. Hitting a nail with a hammer reached 135dB in their workshop and although being outside can diminish the SPL, being near any boundary will cause the same gains as walls/ceilings/floors do for speakers. Table saw can be in the 90db-100dB range when cutting some hardwoods and from experience, a sharp blade produces far less sound than a dull one. Dado blades are noisier, routers are terrible and small, high speed tools like Dremel and Roto-Zip are very good at causing a notch in acuity after prolonged exposure. I know a builder who has profound hearing damage from decades as a carpenter and he said it was from using Skil saws with his head very close. I wouldn't do that for any reason, especially considering the possibility of eye damage but to be so close without hearing protection strikes me as stupid.

I hate seeing the comment about Aleve- how long have you used it and how seen did the damage to your hearing occur? I started using that in about '96 and have found that it's the best for the pain I have, although I don't use it often and never as a habit- only when the pain is bad enough, and I have a high tolerance. I do have ringing, worse at times than others and, while I have been exposed to some extremely loud music, I always carry foam or silicone rubber ear plugs. I have a set of Hear-O's (musician's plugs, not custom-fitted, like Etymotic) but they're not very comfortable. I'm also a woodworker and sometimes work with metal but when the power tools are running or I need to make noises with some kind of impact, the plugs are in. Last time I went to an audiologist, he said I have the typical 'noise notch' in the 4K range but other than that, my right ear was normal below that point and slightly more sensitive than normal above, for my age (I think I was 56 at the time). I went there because mid-high frequency sensitivity in my left ear had been gradually decreasing, so he didn't bother going above 400Hz and only measured bone conduction. Turned out that it only needed to be flushed.

The test for bone conduction leads me to wonder- how much damage in the lowest frequencies occurs if hearing protection is used. I would think the ear muff type would help more WRT damage caused by sound entering the canal, but ear plugs could still allow the sound in due to their own vibrations. Maybe they had a control group who used some kind of protection.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
The first article, without references, is a mixed bag. The hearing conservation guidelines cited are public-domain information and they apply to workers who are exposed to loud sounds five days a week, every week for a lifetime. They do NOT prevent hearing loss. The criteria by which these exposure levels and times were developed allow for hearing loss, but attempt to preserve enough that, at the end of a working career, normal conversational speech at 1 m distance is possible. Hi-fi hearing is long gone.

The workers engaged in such a hearing conservation program need to be tested on day one, so that lawyers have some defense if unexpected hearing loss is claimed later in their careers or tours of duty. It is considered acceptable for hearing loss to accumulate up to 25 dB in both ears at the 1kHz, 2kHz and 3 kHz audiometric frequencies. This means that one's dynamic range has been reduced by those amounts!. Small sounds are gone. In practical terms this translates to a loss of about 10% understanding of entire sentences, about 50% misunderstanding of monosyllabic “PB” words (words that are ambiguous because of similar sounding consonants) during conversation at normal voice levels, in the quiet, with persons one meter apart (Kryter, JASA 1973). And this is considered to be an acceptable situation −“normal” hearing. Further losses from 25 to 40 dB are described as “slight”. Really? For whom?

This is what your friendly audiologist is concerned with, not the ability to hear the finer details of music.

Hearing damage can occur as a result of many normal recreational or domestic activities like shooting, carpentry, mowing the lawn, chain-sawing, listening to personal music systems and so on. Power tools are noisy, kitchen blenders are noisy, and impact sounds like driving nails can generate very high momentary sound levels. Playing in a band, even a symphony orchestra, can be hazardous. Going to movies, rock concerts, and discos must be factored in. Over time it all adds up, and the cumulative effect is hearing loss, the amount depending on the sound levels and the exposure times. – it even has a name: “sociocusis” to differentiate it from occupational hearing loss. It is not practical to track the noise exposure resulting from casual activities like these so it is difficult to be dogmatic about what is or is not “safe”. The notable exceptions are extremely high sound levels produced by nearby guns, explosions, jet and rocket engines, etc. A single exposure to these sounds can produce permanent damage. However, not to be forgotten is that these accumulated exposures add to any occupational noise exposures.

So it is not new knowledge to say that presbyacusis (the statistical average hearing loss as a function of age) is not due to age. That, to be kind, is obvious. It is understandable that men experience higher losses than women - who has the noisy hobbies? Decades ago some scientists visited a tribe in Africa that lived a very quiet life. Their hearing was remarkable, and they could converse over large distances outdoors in near mumbles. So, if one grows old in a quiet environment it is highly probable that good hearing will be sustained over many years. However, that is not how we live our lives, and to accumulated damage as a result of noise exposure, one must add damage from ototoxic drugs, including NSAIDs, over the counter pain and inflammation medications (naprosin sodium/Aleve did it to me). Some prescription drugs are as damaging as a nearby gunshot. Instant, permanent, loss.

New data relate to our binaural hearing processes that allow us to separate multiple sounds in a complex environment, and to separate the sound source from reflections in a room. The findings indicate that these capabilities can be degraded without any change in our audiometric thresholds. This is disturbing.

Nothing is forever, so do what you can - musician's earplugs are highly recommended - while you can.
Always thorough and precise, you are, Dr. Toole! And as always, thus far, my lack of additional knowledge on the subject at hand prevents me from adding anything else useful to the discussion.

Just, thanks!
 
F

Floyd Toole

Acoustician and Wine Connoisseur
I had a full cabinet making shop in my basement in Canada. All the goodies, including a central dust collector. I had ear defenders hanging at several places so they could be slipped on conveniently. Convenience is important because we get careless/lazy. I wore over the ear defenders or ear plugs when using power tools, mowing my 4.5 acre lawn, driving my Lotus Elan +2 but not for enjoying good music!

BTW, the hard shell, liquid-filled-cushion, over-the-ear defender was invented at the NRC by guys I worked with. Cool!

My audiograms are shown in my book Figure 19.4. I need to update the record, but I was running ahead of presbycusis for my age back then, before Aleve. Now I have tinnitus. I took up to 6 pills a day during spells of gout - prescribed by my ignorant doctor! Now I am on Allopurinol, no more gout.

A sound recording engineer I knew years ago was almost deaf in one ear. His young daughter thought to "scare daddy" with a falsetto scream in his ear. Ouch! Of course gunshots and explosives are causes of instant damage - check the VA.

There is evidence that low frequencies do "something" to our ears, but it is not clear what. What is very clear is that sounds around 4 kHz are the most damaging, and that is where the noise-induced hearing loss notch is seen in audiograms. But, as I said, much more than just the threshold has been elevated. The critical bands get wider resulting in reduced resolution for loudness summation and masking, different perceptions of musical consonance and dissonance, reduced ability to carry on conversations in noisy restaurants. The auditory world is different. It is not funny.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Of course gunshots and explosives are causes of instant damage - check the VA.
I recently read an account of a soldier who fired an AT4 without hearing protection, and that is a 184 dB sound. He lost so much hearing in that one moment that he had to be discharged for medical reasons.

There is evidence that low frequencies do "something" to our ears, but it is not clear what. What is very clear is that sounds around 4 kHz are the most damaging, and that is where the noise-induced hearing loss notch is seen in audiograms. But, as I said, much more than just the threshold has been elevated. The critical bands get wider resulting in reduced resolution for loudness summation and masking, different perceptions of musical consonance and dissonance, reduced ability to carry on conversations in noisy restaurants. The auditory world is different. It is not funny.
+1, this needs to be stressed more! Hearing damage isn't just losing sensitivity to loudness. It is losing frequency selectivity, and that may be the worst thing. You don't just lose the ability to hear soft sounds, you lose the ability to distinguish different frequencies in proximity to each other. The sounds that are heard are mushier, blurrier, and more amorphous. Hearing aids can help hearing soft sounds, but they do not help hearing as sharply as pre-damaged states. The physiology behind hearing is just amazing, and its a shame so many people are so cavalier about destroying it in themselves.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I had a full cabinet making shop in my basement in Canada. All the goodies, including a central dust collector. I had ear defenders hanging at several places so they could be slipped on conveniently. Convenience is important because we get careless/lazy. I wore over the ear defenders or ear plugs when using power tools, mowing my 4.5 acre lawn, driving my Lotus Elan +2 but not for enjoying good music!

BTW, the hard shell, liquid-filled-cushion, over-the-ear defender was invented at the NRC by guys I worked with. Cool!

My audiograms are shown in my book Figure 19.4. I need to update the record, but I was running ahead of presbycusis for my age back then, before Aleve. Now I have tinnitus. I took up to 6 pills a day during spells of gout - prescribed by my ignorant doctor! Now I am on Allopurinol, no more gout.

A sound recording engineer I knew years ago was almost deaf in one ear. His young daughter thought to "scare daddy" with a falsetto scream in his ear. Ouch! Of course gunshots and explosives are causes of instant damage - check the VA.

There is evidence that low frequencies do "something" to our ears, but it is not clear what. What is very clear is that sounds around 4 kHz are the most damaging, and that is where the noise-induced hearing loss notch is seen in audiograms. But, as I said, much more than just the threshold has been elevated. The critical bands get wider resulting in reduced resolution for loudness summation and masking, different perceptions of musical consonance and dissonance, reduced ability to carry on conversations in noisy restaurants. The auditory world is different. It is not funny.
My machines are in the garage, which is unfortunate, because I'm in the Milwaukee area and I have reached the point of hating Winter, so I rarely go out there when it's cold, snowing, etc. The setup and cleanup take enough time without having to deal with moving vehicles, cleaning them off and moving them back in.

6 Alleve per day? That's twice the recommended maximum! I bet your liver and kidneys thanked you when you stopped taking it. The problem- that stuff works great!

Two restaurants that are less than ten miles from my house have pine tongue & groove boards on every surface and they're two of the most annoying places I have been, in my life. I avoid them, completely.

I think people need some kind of indicator that lets them know when their sound exposure has reached a critical point. Maybe, like the little red button that pops up on a Butterball turkey when it's done.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I had a full cabinet making shop in my basement in Canada. All the goodies, including a central dust collector. I had ear defenders hanging at several places so they could be slipped on conveniently. Convenience is important because we get careless/lazy. I wore over the ear defenders or ear plugs when using power tools, mowing my 4.5 acre lawn, driving my Lotus Elan +2 but not for enjoying good music!
All the goodies, eh? My father is bidding on an old Delta shaper, as ours is having extreme difficulty coping with rail and stile cutters. Surprising, as I anticipated the 6" raised panel cutter to be it's weakness!

Hoping a machine that hasn't sat in a garage with no vapor barrier (don't get me started) will be more up to the task. Or I'll just start joining boards, planing them, and making those 'fancy' new flat panel 'euro' cabinet doors! :rolleyes:


BTW, the hard shell, liquid-filled-cushion, over-the-ear defender was invented at the NRC by guys I worked with. Cool!
Liquid filled? I use 3M Peltor which appears to be nothing but foam. And as I have to be meticulous with checking for spiders anyway, multiple pairs will leave me confused as to which have been inspected!

What is an example of this liquid filled device?


My audiograms are shown in my book Figure 19.4. I need to update the record, but I was running ahead of presbycusis for my age back then, before Aleve. Now I have tinnitus. I took up to 6 pills a day during spells of gout - prescribed by my ignorant doctor! Now I am on Allopurinol, no more gout.

A sound recording engineer I knew years ago was almost deaf in one ear. His young daughter thought to "scare daddy" with a falsetto scream in his ear. Ouch! Of course gunshots and explosives are causes of instant damage - check the VA.

There is evidence that low frequencies do "something" to our ears, but it is not clear what. What is very clear is that sounds around 4 kHz are the most damaging, and that is where the noise-induced hearing loss notch is seen in audiograms. But, as I said, much more than just the threshold has been elevated. The critical bands get wider resulting in reduced resolution for loudness summation and masking, different perceptions of musical consonance and dissonance, reduced ability to carry on conversations in noisy restaurants. The auditory world is different. It is not funny.
I notice tinnitus much more during the winter (which as mild as ours was this year, was appreciated!) and after sustained strenuous activity. Some tweeters have also caused this problem after more than 20 minutes or so of listening. But if I am simply fatigued, I'll skip the ringing, and can just have painful sensitivity...

I saw your audiogram previously, but perhaps I need to re-read - why are sounds at 4 kHz that damaging? Has that been identified? Or is it that we are particularly sensitive to this frequency (range), and that, much like the muscles in our eyes wear, the ear drum just hardens too much to effectively absorb that frequency?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
All the goodies, eh? My father is bidding on an old Delta shaper, as ours is having extreme difficulty coping with rail and stile cutters. Surprising, as I anticipated the 6" raised panel cutter to be it's weakness!

Hoping a machine that hasn't sat in a garage with no vapor barrier (don't get me started) will be more up to the task. Or I'll just start joining boards, planing them, and making those 'fancy' new flat panel 'euro' cabinet doors! :rolleyes:

I saw your audiogram previously, but perhaps I need to re-read - why are sounds at 4 kHz that damaging? Has that been identified? Or is it that we are particularly sensitive to this frequency (range), and that, much like the muscles in our eyes wear, the ear drum just hardens too much to effectively absorb that frequency?
Nice pun! Cabinet doors have stiles and rails, but the other name for that kind of work is 'cope and stick'. Can't cope? HA!

Actually, applying a few coats of paste wax on the bare cast iron with moving blankets on top do a great job of keeping condensation from being a problem. Draping a blanket over an un-waxed cast iron surface does not, however. I found that out the hard way when I forgot to wax my jointer and the next time I wanted to use it, everything had a uniform coating of rust because I had fired up my torpedo propane-fueled heater. I lost interest in that particular heater as soon as I saw the rust and it took hours to clean it up. My table saw had a few spots but nothing major and since then, I have waxed it before there was any chance of a repeat performance. I gave up on that spray-on Top Coat stuff, too- more wipes off than stays on and Johnson's paste wax wipes on easily. Just make sure the wax doesn't have any silicone.

It wasn't addressed to me, but human hearing is most sensitive not far from 4KHz and that's generally the upper limit of testing because most audiologists are concerned with our ability to understand speech, not listen to music. I have had some interesting questions from audiologists, though- I would hear a tone and ask them to repeat it and recognize it sooner. That always results in better sensitivity because I know what I'm listening for.

Fletcher-Munson Equal Loudness Contour shows our sensitivity to sounds at various frequencies. The graph shows the level needed to hear the sounds as equally loud and you'll notice that around 4KHz, the SPL doesn't need to be as high as the rest.

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/graphics/Fletcher-Munson.gif

Some of the loss is due to the membrane hardening, but if you look at the link to the inner ear below, it shows cilia, which are like tiny hairs and each is attached to auditory nerve endings. When sound causes the cilia to move, they stimulate the nerve endings. The cilia become damaged over time and with repeated bombardment, so we lose sensitivity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereocilia_(inner_ear)
 
Last edited:
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Nice pun! Cabinet doors have stiles and rails, but the other name for that kind of work is 'cope and stick'. Can't cope? HA!

Actually, applying a few coats of paste wax on the bare cast iron with moving blankets on top do a great job of keeping condensation from being a problem. Draping a blanket over an un-waxed cast iron surface does not, however. I found that out the hard way when I forgot to wax my jointer and the next time I wanted to use it, everything had a uniform coating of rust because I had fired up my torpedo propane-fueled heater. I lost interest in that particular heater as soon as I saw the rust and it took hours to clean it up. My table saw had a few spots but nothing major and since then, I have waxed it before there was any chance of a repeat performance. I gave up on that spray-on Top Coat stuff, too- more wipes off than stays on and Johnson's paste wax wipes on easily. Just make sure the wax doesn't have any silicone.

It wasn't addressed to me, but human hearing is most sensitive not far from 4KHz and that's generally the upper limit of testing because most audiologists are concerned with our ability to understand speech, not listen to music. I have had some interesting questions from audiologists, though- I would hear a tone and ask them to repeat it and recognize it sooner. That always results in better sensitivity because I know what I'm listening for.

Fletcher-Munson Equal Loudness Contour shows our sensitivity to sounds at various frequencies. The graph shows the level needed to hear the sounds as equally loud and you'll notice that around 4KHz, the SPL doesn't need to be as high as the rest.

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/graphics/Fletcher-Munson.gif

Some of the loss is due to the membrane hardening, but if you look at the link to the inner ear below, it shows cilia, which are like tiny hairs and each is attached to auditory nerve endings. When sound causes the cilia to move, they stimulate the nerve endings. The cilia become damaged over time and with repeated bombardment, so we lose sensitivity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereocilia_(inner_ear)

I use camellia oil on everything from iron table tops to all my bits and blades. Rust can mostly wipe clean! The key is that it will not inhibit stain/finish from penetrating wood that would of course come in contact from tooling, unlike other oils.

Overall the tools are in decent condition (because I cleaned them all!), but watching the way wood deteriorates after being stored in there is what is clueing me in. The shapers lift mechanism is jammed, so I have to set the spindle height manually. And I suspect that may be applying pressure to the other end of the spindle as I am able to stall the cutter using the rail and stile cutters! Yes I switched the belt back to 10k rpm, instead of 7k for the raised panel cutter.

BTW I was born in Sheboygan, so I suspect you are naturally in-tune with my style of humor ;-)

That said, thank you for the insight! I did not realize our ears have cilium like our lungs do. (or mine did)

I guess the real point here is that I should see if this doctor that will be teaching me the vestibular therapy exercises, can also establish a baseline audiogram. I don't have high hopes for the therapy, but at least an audiogram could be useful!
 

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