Need Advice on System for Music Only

[2ManyShoes]

Some subs are designed to work exactly the way the people at Spearit suggested with a full range going to the main speakers. You might want to look at REL subs for example. The REL T3 is on sale for $400: Amazon.com: REL T3 BLACK Acoustics T3 Series 8", 150W Subwoofer: Electronics. You might want to look at the manual for that sub; REL is a very well respected sub manufacturer and it has a different ideas than most in how to blend a sub in with the mains.

I read the manual. That's very interesting. So this sub could be added (in fact is intended to be added) to a standard 2-channel system by simply piling up the leads from the main speaker outs so they run to both the sub and the main speakers. The manual claims this actually works better than the traditional method.

Has anybody else tried this?

 

[GranteedEV]

That would actually get me some use out of the "redundant" components. But would it work?

Bi-amping itself, is redundant.

You have to realize that the surround channels use the same power supply. So this receiver is rated 60w(8ohm)/120w(4ohm) but when you simply don't use anything but the two main channels, you get closer to 100w(8ohm)/200w (4ohm) thanks to the robust power supply designed for multiple channels.

the crossover on the sub will take care of its frequencies, and they think sending the full signal to my speakers (old low-end Paradigm towers) will produce a better overall mix anyway.

That's got me a little confused--I thought bass management was my #1 issue.

I can see where they're coming from... In the bass frequencies (especially ~40hz - 120hz), a single omnipolar source will cause lots of peaks and dips in the frequency response. Adding a second will smooth that out greatly. Adding a third (a sub) will further smooth that out and over multiple seats too. Ideally you want three, even four subwoofers rather than just one.

The problem is that without a method of setting proper delays and levels, you won't be able to set up the sub properly, and your power handling will be limited by the main speakers rather than by the much more powerful subwoofer. If the sub is receiving the signal late (which is very possible given its internal circuitry) or early (which is also possible) then it could really muddy things up.

I believe strongly in bass management. There`s some select scenarios where I feel running mains full range can be great, especially if your mains are sealed and designed for high power handling, like these Geddes speakers. Abbey

I feel vented speakers can`t handle tones below their Fb so it`s not recommended.

 

[2ManyShoes]

Bi-amping itself, is redundant.

Maybe the manual for my Paradigms is overly enthusiastic--they say you're not getting the most out of them if you don't bi-amp. (I've always felt guilty abut just using the bridges between the two inputs.)

 

[GranteedEV]

Maybe the manual for my Paradigms is overly enthusiastic--they say you're not getting the most out of them if you don't bi-amp.

Of course the fact that Paradigm is also an amp manufacturer (anthem) might have something to do with that.

 

[sholling]

I disagree with their assessment. Although a sub has filtering capabilitities, iIts much easier to set it up on a receiver and use a receiver's built in room eq to adjust the levels of the sub and mains for a proper balance.

I would take 3db's advice and let the receiver deal with bass management. There really isn't any reason to over think this because what you're trying do isn't rocket science. Start with a simple automated setup process and then tweak the crossover setting.

As for setting the mains to full range and using a sub as well ("double bass" in the Onkyo setup menu) I'm not big on that. Instead I prefer to set the crossover 10-20hz higher than the lower rated limit of the speaker. In other words if the speaker is rated 50-20khz I'll set the crossover at 70hz to give the crossover some room to do its job which is to create a seamless blended transition between speakers and subwoofer. Letting the sub deal with deep bass also eases the load on the receiver.

I also agree that biamping doesn't bring a lot to the party. But it doesn't hurt anything if you want to try it. One nice feature with a solid receiver like the TX-NR708/709 series Onkyos is a a full set of preouts so that you can always add an external amp (should you want one) down the road.

The other thing I haven't seen addressed is how big of a room are you expecting the sub to pressurize? Unlike other speakers which are sized based on seating distance, subwoofers are sized based on total room volume including any space open to your listening room. If you're on a tight budget I'd pass on $600 receivers and stay with a $350 budget and put the rest into a more capable sub. That's a suject that deserves its own thread but just bear in mind that small entry level subs tend to do best in sealed rooms not much bigger than a small bedroom.

 

[2ManyShoes]

The other thing I haven't see addressed is how big of a room are you expecting the sub to pressurize? Unlike other speakers which are sized based on seating distance, subwoofers are sized based on total room volume including any space open to your listening room. If you're on a tight budget I'd pass on $600 receivers and stay with a $350 budget and put the rest into a more capable sub.

I should have mentioned that sooner. This system is for a bedroom. It's a master bedroom, but not too big (let's say 400 square feet), quite full of furniture, and (given that the point here is Wagnerian opera, which my wife doesn't want to hear) the door will be closed.

 

[GranteedEV]

I should have mentioned that sooner. This system is for a bedroom. It's a master bedroom, but not too big (let's say 400 square feet), quite full of furniture, and (given that the point here is Wagnerian opera, which my wife doesn't want to hear) the door will be closed.

In such a small room, i think sealed subs will need minimum EQ, but I also think that most of the sealed subs at that price are going to have some steep filters in place which I don't like for a small room sub dedicated to music.

I do like sholling's suggestion of shifting some of the receiver budget to the sub. The Marantz SR5005 should be a nice choice:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5005A/MARANTZ-SR5005-100w-X-7ch-3-D-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html

It should have decent amps, and I doubt you need more power in such a small room. Even if you did you could easily add an external amplifier like a crown XLS1500. I think the EQ applied by the audyssey is well worth it in such a small room in order to flatten out room gain which can be a headache for bass sound quality.

And that extra 150 can go to a better sub.

 

[slipperybidness]

Personally, if for music only, then I would go with the integrated like the 356BEE and a good sub. Bass management will amount to adjusting the sub gain, the xover freq, and the phase. All very simple really, and you can tune it in for your tastes without fancy-shmancy algorithms on the reciever. Also, back to the reciever option, you will be spending money for features that you will never use i.e. video connections. If for music only, put the money into the sub-components on the HW that will be best suited for music and not waste it on useless (to you) features.

Also, I have really been eyeballing the emotiva USP-1 preamp, but that is about $500 and you would still need an amp to connect it to.

 

[Knucklehead90]

Room correction should be pretty much useless in a 2ch stereo setup.

This simply is not true. Reflections and absorption rates of sound with with it's peaks and valleys don't change simply because you've turned off the multi-channel AVR and turned on the 2 channel unit. That is unless you have an anechoic chamber for your listening space.

 

[2ManyShoes]

The Marantz SR5005 should be a nice choice:

MARANTZ SR5005 100w X 7ch 3-D Home Theater Surround Receiver | Accessories4less

It should have decent amps, and I doubt you need more power in such a small room. Even if you did you could easily add an external amplifier like a crown XLS1500. I think the EQ applied by the audyssey is well worth it in such a small room in order to flatten out room gain which can be a headache for bass sound quality.

And that extra 150 can go to a better sub.

Hmmm, assuming I went that way, what's the best (music) sub I can get for $550?

 

[Knucklehead90]

Take a look at the 12" Emotiva Ultra sub. Great bargain and it is a sealed design which is great for music. I have a 12" sealed DIY sub in my bedroom which is about the same size as yours. I don't have equalization or bass management other than what is on the sub's amp - but I've played around with placement so I don't have a huge peak. It sits in a corner next to the bed which seems to be the best place.

 

[slipperybidness]

This simply is not true. Reflections and absorption rates of sound with with it's peaks and valleys don't change simply because you've turned off the multi-channel AVR and turned on the 2 channel unit. That is unless you have an anechoic chamber for your listening space.

True, but the real solution here would be room treatments, not EQ

 

[Knucklehead90]

True, but the real solution here would be room treatments, not EQ

Agree - I wonder how that'll pass the WAF smell test?
That is the best of all possible solutions. Correction software is for us lazy slobs.

 

[2ManyShoes]

Take a look at the 12" Emotiva Ultra sub. Great bargain and it is a sealed design which is great for music.

That's the one I've already been looking at, for $379. What would $550 buy me?

 

[GranteedEV]

That's the one I've already been looking at, for $379. What would $550 buy me?

Commercially, i'd be looking at an epik legend.

 

[sholling]

I should have mentioned that sooner. This system is for a bedroom. It's a master bedroom, but not too big (let's say 400 square feet), quite full of furniture, and (given that the point here is Wagnerian opera, which my wife doesn't want to hear) the door will be closed.

That's not a small room. 400sqft is at least 3200 cubic feet (assuming an 8' ceiling). Mine (see signature) is 3000cuft and I can guaranty you that the little Ultra 12 will be totally lost in there. It's really best in a room less than 1500cuft. For a room that size you're probably better off with Hsu VTF-2 or a Rythmik FV12 - probably the $500 Rythmik.

This simply is not true. Reflections and absorption rates of sound with with it's peaks and valleys don't change simply because you've turned off the multi-channel AVR and turned on the 2 channel unit. That is unless you have an anechoic chamber for your listening space.

+1 room correction is a big help in a small room. Room treatments help (if the wife allows them) but you still want room correction.

 

[3db]

That's the one I've already been looking at, for $379. What would $550 buy me?

This bad boy which will eat the Emotiva. HSU VTF-2 MK 3 Subwoofer

It would cost me an additional $170 to ship it to Ontario but seeing as how you sit nearly on top of Califronai, you may get it alot cheaper than me.

 

[Sam013]

Denon AVR 1610

Hello , everyone I am new user , any recomendations about online store to buy Denon AVR 1610? having HDMI passthrough which is a must, nearby sydney,i want to buy the product in best prices. something I can add a preamp to in the future.

 

[3db]

Commercially, i'd be looking at an epik legend.

They don't ship to Canada? WTF?

 

[2ManyShoes]

Trigger Pulled

For a gigantic number of reasons (and taking into consideration everything so helpfully posted here), I settled on a Marantz SR6005 (bi-amped--incredibly, they devote a page of the manual to this) and one Emotiva Ultra 12. A mere $278 over budget, but a nice upgrade.

Next year, a new CD player, a wi-fi dongle, new tower speakers, and maybe a second sub. Oh, yeah, and a chair to sit in.

Thanks to all who posted!

Cheers.