Need advice on AT screen for conference room

krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
Hey guys long time no post!

I need an AT screen for one of our conference rooms at work as we have in wall speakers that are already installed and they want to upgrade the screen size in that room from the 75" 4x3 screen to a ~110" 16x9 screen. Picture quality is not as important as cost in this situation. Any ideas?
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
Not here to help but I did want to say Hi.

I hope all is well.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
you should've just pm BMX :D

but seriously - go with bright white screen - my conf rooms always well lid - more brightness -> the better
 
krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
Sup ADK and BSA...wow you guys sound like medical conditions!

Thanks for the help, hopefully I will be able to find something on the cheap...oh forgot to mention it needs to be retractable...
 
krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
Sup Krazy ? ;):D Where have you been hiding recently?
Started a new job about 6 months ago and have been really busy which is good!

I'm the only IT guy for about 75 employees, 100 servers (15 physical), and a network that was in complete disarray.

Went from this when I got here...


To this as of last week!
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Good work on the cleanup of that f'n disaster area!

For an acoustically transparent screen, you will want to figure out if you want a quality long term solution, or just the cheapest POS screen you can put in there.

My first and main reaction would be to go to DaLite and get a tab-tensioned motorized acoustically transparent screen.

The screen should significantly outlast ANY projector purchase. I've run into screen setups where the screen is 15+ years old and they are on their 4th or 5th projector on the same screen, so getting a quality long life screen I find to be very important.

Tensioned Advantage® Electrol®

DaLite has a LOT of options on screen cases and a lot of options on fabrics to use including at least four acoustically transparent materials.

They have a parts numbers and pricing PDF here...
http://www.da-lite.com/products/pricing_pdfs/41.pdf
$3310 -> $4043 for it at 110" which probably will put you closer to $2,000-$3,000 online depending on where you get it.

I personally think DaLite is right where it's at with pricing and quality for this type of screen. You get a true lifetime of reliability without the cost of Stewart, but with far more options than most other manufacturers.

Their Tensioned Cosmopolitan Electrol offers about the same quality, with a non-ceiling recessed design and lower cost...
Tensioned Cosmopolitan® Electrol®
$2,500-$3,000 MSRP - so a fair bit of savings if you can go on-wall with the screen.

You also have the option of Screen Innovations with their Maestro acoustically transparent materials...
Reference Motorized G3 | Projector Screens | Screen Innovations

The SI screen has a blurb (at best) here...
Screen Innovations Reference Motorized G3 Screen First Look — Reviews and News from Audioholics

But, I can't find pricing. So, if pricing really matters, then you will want to dig some more on that.

I think a few things that are really important are ensuring that it is UL listed and fire retardent so you don't have insurance issues no matter what.

As well, you want to ensure that the screen can be cleaned with a soap/water just in case. The woven screens I'm not sure have this option, so double and triple check the screen material information to ensure that if the screen gets a few marks on it that you can go in and clean it up a bit without destroying the screen.

I would not think a budget of under $2,000 is appropriate for a screen of this size and of the design which is being requested for a long term solution.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
The screen should significantly outlast ANY projector purchase. I've run into screen setups where the screen is 15+ years old and they are on their 4th or 5th projector on the same screen, so getting a quality long life screen I find to be very important.
I can totally confirm this - were are on end of life of 2nd projector and about to get 3rd, yet still have original Stewart Grayhawk tension pull down screen
 
krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
Good work on the cleanup of that f'n disaster area!

For an acoustically transparent screen, you will want to figure out if you want a quality long term solution, or just the cheapest POS screen you can put in there.

My first and main reaction would be to go to DaLite and get a tab-tensioned motorized acoustically transparent screen.

The screen should significantly outlast ANY projector purchase. I've run into screen setups where the screen is 15+ years old and they are on their 4th or 5th projector on the same screen, so getting a quality long life screen I find to be very important.

Tensioned Advantage® Electrol®

DaLite has a LOT of options on screen cases and a lot of options on fabrics to use including at least four acoustically transparent materials.

They have a parts numbers and pricing PDF here...
http://www.da-lite.com/products/pricing_pdfs/41.pdf
$3310 -> $4043 for it at 110" which probably will put you closer to $2,000-$3,000 online depending on where you get it.

I personally think DaLite is right where it's at with pricing and quality for this type of screen. You get a true lifetime of reliability without the cost of Stewart, but with far more options than most other manufacturers.

Their Tensioned Cosmopolitan Electrol offers about the same quality, with a non-ceiling recessed design and lower cost...
Tensioned Cosmopolitan® Electrol®
$2,500-$3,000 MSRP - so a fair bit of savings if you can go on-wall with the screen.

You also have the option of Screen Innovations with their Maestro acoustically transparent materials...
Reference Motorized G3 | Projector Screens | Screen Innovations

The SI screen has a blurb (at best) here...
Screen Innovations Reference Motorized G3 Screen First Look — Reviews and News from Audioholics

But, I can't find pricing. So, if pricing really matters, then you will want to dig some more on that.

I think a few things that are really important are ensuring that it is UL listed and fire retardent so you don't have insurance issues no matter what.

As well, you want to ensure that the screen can be cleaned with a soap/water just in case. The woven screens I'm not sure have this option, so double and triple check the screen material information to ensure that if the screen gets a few marks on it that you can go in and clean it up a bit without destroying the screen.

I would not think a budget of under $2,000 is appropriate for a screen of this size and of the design which is being requested for a long term solution.
Thanks a lot BMX, this is great advice and I will see if the boss will go for splurging on a nice screen.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Hey krzywica, it's good to hear things are going well for you. It's been about nine months or so since I've posted here, and I probably won't post again after today for a long time, but I wanted to help you today. If you still have that PSB speaker, I hope it's still treating you well btw.

Firstly, I've never set up a conference room, and it's hard for me to know where we can take compromises. Are terrible aesthetics ok? (I may get to why later.) Is rather poor audio ok? Is having it pretty dim ok? How far can we take each of these compromises? (I know, impossible to explain in a short post.)

Ok, so just about every damned AT screen out there is perf'd. From Dalite, to Stewart, or SMX, etc.

IMO, for the following combination: 1) excellent engineering, 2) excellent value, 3) excellent audio, you need to go with Seymour XD. The big compromise here could be brightness; the mftr spec is 1.2, however Jeff Meier measured it at .94 onaxis, and .93 offaxis (for him, this was 18deg to the side, 6deg down, respectivey).

http://accucalhd.com/documents/accucal_front_projection_screen_report.pdf

What's wrong with perf? It needs considerable space from the speakers to avoid lobing issues. How bad are these lobing issues? I have no freaking clue. Probably completely unacceptable for an AHer, but for the purposes of a conference room, maybe no one would possibly know. This is where you wait for BMX to chime in with personal anecdotes.

If not a microperf, you may see a hole pattern depending on the material and distance. There are also microperfs. With the XD weave, the texture is viewable rather easily at less than double digit ft away. Past that, it's there but subtle, and I dunno, maybe 13-15ish, it's imperceptible. However, this is in a cave. Right- the textures will be most visible when the screen is all lit up bright white; perhaps bad news for a conference room.

If interested, you need to contact Chris Seymour directly. Fortunately for you, he is an example of what excellent customer service is. Unfortunately for the perf'd world, SMX is impossible to reach.

Oh, the weave is EXTREMELY durable (the opposite end of the spectrum from Dalite High Power, which I used to use). There is a video of a kid jumping up and down on a Seymour screen like a trampoline. I bloodied my knuckles at first, pulling the stuff taut when going DIY with this stuff. I wore gloves from then on. It is pretty easy to clean, Seymour can tell you. Also, even if permanently stained, but not all the way through, just flip the material around; the properties for audio/video are identical. The visible weave pattern will look a bit different, but the performance is identical nevertheless.

[Cheapest Weave Idea] Now to the aesthetics, if you guys are ok with butt azz ugly, here's the kicker- the screen material is probably about $200, actually probably less than that, unframed. Maybe there's an extremely cheap way for you guys to mount this material. When you talk to Chris, he will tell you right away what the maximum angled tilt you can get with chosen screen material (the weave is not totally horizontal/vertical, but tilted to avoid any possible moire effect; this is typically only an issue with 3LCD, which happens to have the lowest fill ratio of the competing techs; the tilt makes this moot even for LCD though).

I almost forgot, the audio will need to be boosted, probably in the rough area of a couple of db. I can't quite remember. Another thing I forgot; how far away does a (edit) [strike]weave[/strike] perf need to be? Well over a foot, if memory serves.

[Relatively Cheaper Weave Idea] There was a guy some time ago, I think his name was Brad, who came up with a nice compromise for DIY- buy a Jamestown screen, prebuilt, fit it with the weave. Cheaper than Seymours prebuilt, but much less work than full DIY. Well last I checked, they're now selling the Seymour material on their frames. If I am mistaken about this, forgive me, but definitely check it out if interested.

[Least Cheapest] $1028 for the Seymour 109", (model H095). Seymour AV | Store



[Throwing you the curveball] Would it be just as cheap, maybe, and much brighter, by forgetting the existing speakers, throwing up a couple of cheap monitors, and putting up whatever material you may want?

If you were looking at as much as the $3k ballpark for a Dalite or something, just how much size would that money get for you, but instead looking at a Screen Innovations Black Diamond? You need to check out the YT vids on this stuff man. Or again, just ask BMX.

Black Diamond Fixed | Projector Screens | Screen Innovations

Oops- now I understand, he's pushing for tab tensioned. Probably so that it's tucked safely away when not in use. Ok, Seymour's 109" is at $1,710 I believe. Just go to "store" to see prices, and below is the bit on the retractables. If you want to see more of the Seymour XD in action at AH, just for the hell of it, look up some pics/threads of GO-NAD!, rmk, mperfct, basspig, myself, and perhaps others.

Seymour AV | Center Stage screens

Seymour either owns or is at least in charge of stateside Screen Excellence, another weave, but mega freaking fine, ISF cert'd for 4k; you can't see the weave from an arm's distance away. The catches: cost, and dimmer than XD. BTW, I believe George Lucas uses the XD for his home (coupled to some $$$$$$ light cannon of a PJ).

Seymour Screen Excellence


Good luck!
 
Last edited:
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Hey krzywica, it's good to hear things are going well for you. It's been about nine months or so since I've posted here, and I probably won't post again after today for a long time
Good to see you are around. Long time no type. Hope all is well with you and yours.

Your ears must have been burning because I started a thread asking where you had gone off to:D

Take care.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I didn't realize that Seymour made tensioned electric screens.

Just like the DaLite woven screens, this screen will have care issues, and you will want to check UL and fire code certifications with them prior to purchase due to the multitude of headaches associated with commercial installations and your potential insurance/fire risk with a permanently mounted screen.

Other than that, I've heard nothing but good things about Seymour Screens and their focus on AT screens with direct to consumer pricing tends to be a win-win for everyone involved.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Ok, maybe just this one last post before I take my leave, to throw up the advices on cleaning. It appears Seymour has been making electric retractables since late 2007.

I honestly have never heard of a Da-Lite weaved/woven AT screen, that's a first for me. I tried looking for one, ran some searches, I still can't find any that specifically are weaves. I do see perfs though. Anyway, what do I know, maybe it's a very recently introduced product or something.

So, I looked up a few things C.S. said about cleaning the XD stuff particularly, and here are some snippets.

You can easily wash the screen fabric with mild cleaners and soap and water. The vinyl extrusion over the threads means it won't care about water, however vinyl doesn't like heat or folding. So if the common vacuum brush maintenence doesn't clean what you need, spot cleaning is easy.
First, I'd use a vacuum brush to get the loose stuff off. Then, step it up to a damp cloth, then a mild multi-surface cleaner, and if all else fails use a kitchen/bath cleaner that has a bit of bleach content to it. You may find the discoloration you see is because you cleaned a spot and moved the schmutz around. You might find yourself needing to clean the entire screen if you have accumulated enough on it.

If you have an uncleanable stain, consider reversing the material if the backside is blemish-free. It looks barely different but specs the same.
This one is not as relevant, as it's regarding fixed frame.

A woven AT screen is actually much more durable than most non-AT screens because the fiber thread cores reinforce it. You can area-clean the screen using a vacuum brush or rag with the milder cleaners or soap. If you have our fixed frame screen, the o-ring tension system allows you to area clean it or gently spot clean it without stretching it enough to cause waves. The o-rings will just eat it back up like a trampoline. If you really have to scrub something, put the screen flat on a table or otherwise reinforce the back so you're not poking as much of a dimple into the material.

If that doesn't do it, let me know. We have some more aggressive steps that can be used too.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Shoot - I think I was just looking at the SI site at the same time I was looking at the Dalite site. SI has woven screens, DaLite is just a perf screen.

It does worry me about the cleaning, but I have no first hand experience about how it would truly go in a head-to-head "we got something nasty on this" competition.

Would be interesting to get some screen material from both companies and try them out head-to-head. See how each manufacturer does.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Did you say low priced, retractable?

How about the Elite Cinetension2 with AcousticPro1080 material?

Not knocking the other suggestions, but if you want acoustically transparent and a low price in an electric screen that comes with pretty much every type of control option in the box, you can't beat the price on the Elite Screen products :)
 
krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
I've been doing more digging and I think the boss will go for ~$2k. He mentioned that the screen cannot be "shiny" though...not sure if any of the suggestions would have a reflective surface or not...I'm such a projector noob...
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
None of the woven screens are "shiny". They don't have micro-beads, a sheen or a retro-reflective surface.

There are perforated screens with high gain, but not the woven ones - none that I know of in any case. Pretty much all of the woven screens are basically a nominal zero gain - just a plain, white fabric. I'm not aware of any less expensive woven AT screen than Elite's. Elite has also recently introduced a tighter weave option - the AcousticPro1080P2 It's a bit more expensive than the original AcousticPro1080 material and most vendors don't seem to have it listed in stock just yet, but you can probably order it if you call directly.

With the woven screens, it's definitely best to have a tab tensioned frame if you're going with a retractable drop-down screen. They definitely show waves if you go with an untensioned screen - at least in my experience. It's too bad VApex doesn't offer an AT material, since their tab-tensioned screen is about as inexpensive as tab-tensioned screens get! But Elite's Cinetension2 isn't too pricey - a fair bit less expensive than a lot of the competition. It's not fancy. The tension is provided by string that you can ratchet if it starts to come a bit loose over the years. It isn't a stiff cord like most other tab-tensioned screens. But it does the job and is easy to manage and it keeps the cost down :)
 
krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
Ok so I ended up going with a CineTension 2 135" from Elite Screens. Installed it this morning and it sure is perty! Now we need a projector...

However we have a bit of a tricky installation, projector needs to be mounted on a beam 7'2" from the screen, and needs to throw 135" of projection goodness while also having pretty good brightness output. Does something like this exist?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Krazy, from my own experience kinda similar to your - selecting projector with existing screens the process should really start with determinate on what exactly "pretty good brightness output" means to you. For us in large and very brightly lit conference room and (unfortunately) gray screen this number is about 5000 Ansi lumens, but in your room it might differ considerably. Try to talk to local A/V vendors and ask for a demo unit or two

After that you obviously must decide on projector resolution.

Use this tool to get rough idea use this tool:
Find Projectors By Feature

My own favorite choices are:
NEC NP-PA550W and NEC-NP-PA500U
both come with various lenses and as a kit too (kits are better value)
 

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