My very first Amplifier & I need help!

[Adam41591]

First time posting here and boy am I lost. Having only just gotten into Hi-Fi about nine months ago, I'm not exactly sure what my next step should be. My current setup consists of a Harman Kardon AVR-146 receiver, Infiniti Beta 20 bookshelf speakers, a Velodyne Impact 10, along with a Pioneer BDP-320 for CD & Blu-ray playback. So far I've been happy with the pretty solid performance but I'm almost positive I need more POWER. With that being said, I have absolutely no clue as to how an amplifier truly works. Being 19, my funds are limited but I've been looking at the Emotiva UPA-2 as the company seems pretty well respected among consumers, especially those with home theaters. Now I am aware of the review Audioholics has of the UPA-2 but that still doesn't tell me if this is the right move for me. Unfortunately, the only independent audio dealer in my area had to close shop because of slow business. It's a shame too because the owner had worked for years in the industry. There is a place near Raleigh but they seem to cater to more high-end clients & I have a feeling they'd turn their nose up at someone with less than a couple thousand dollars to spend. Anyway, back to my question. Should I be looking at an Amplifier as my next step? Also, how will my subwoofer factor into this situation? Thanks for any information you can offer guys. [/FONT]

 

[T2T]

Your receiver doesn't have pre-outs on it; you can't utilize a separate amp at this time.

 

[Adam41591]

With what the T2T said, does that mean I need a pre-amp? If so, how will the receiver, the pre-amp & the Amplifier work together?

 

[dalessandro12]

The pre-out from the receiver is the "input" for the amplifier and the amplifier well...amplifies the sound and then feeds that to the speakers.

The post above says that you don't have the ability to feed the amplifier. I don't know of another way to do it (maybe there is?) but it sounds like you need another receiver that can do a pre-out to the amplifier.

What are you complaints about the sound and why do you feel the need to get an amplifier?

 

[KEW]

If you are thinking of the Emotiva pre-amp, it is a great unit for a 2.1 system but it will not work with your current receiver. Unfortunately, to be able to sell your receiver at such a low price, the designers omitted any connectivity to other amp/pre-amp units.

I'm an audio only guy, so check to make sure this 2006 model covers your video needs (I'd bet it does). There is a link to a good spec sheet with large photo of rear farther down the page I linked to.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5600/Marantz/ZR6001/SR5600-Receiver-90w-X-7ch-Home-Theater-Surround/1.html

This unit gets you into an upgradeable receiver with a good amp section without costing too much. At 90 Watts Per Channel you probably won't need an amp.

How big is the room you are trying to fill?

 

[adwilk]

I don't have anything against the Infinity speakers, I actually think they are a pretty decent budget bookshelf, but if you're looking for an upgrade in sound, thats where you should spend your money IMO. I don't think adding a preamp and amp will improve the sound enough to justify the cash spent. I'd determine a budget and look to see what speakers you might be able to afford. If you don't find a speaker you really like over the infinities, then start saving for upgrades down the road.

 

[Adam41591]

If you are thinking of the Emotiva pre-amp, it is a great unit for a 2.1 system but it will not work with your current receiver. Unfortunately, to be able to sell your receiver at such a low price, the designers omitted any connectivity to other amp/pre-amp units.

I'm an audio only guy, so check to make sure this 2006 model covers your video needs (I'd bet it does). There is a link to a good spec sheet with large photo of rear farther down the page I linked to.


This unit gets you into an upgradeable receiver with a good amp section without costing too much. At 90 Watts Per Channel you probably won't need an amp.

How big is the room you are trying to fill?

Actually what I listed is what I own. The Velodyne, the Receiver & the Speakers are already purchased. Sorry if there was any confusion. I think what you're saying is a new receiver is the next best step. Correct?

 

[Adam41591]

I don't have anything against the Infinity speakers, I actually think they are a pretty decent budget bookshelf, but if you're looking for an upgrade in sound, thats where you should spend your money IMO. I don't think adding a preamp and amp will improve the sound enough to justify the cash spent. I'd determine a budget and look to see what speakers you might be able to afford. If you don't find a speaker you really like over the infinities, then start saving for upgrades down the road.

Actually I'm very happy my Infinity's. I realize they're not high-end but I'm not gonna change them. Personal attachment I guess, my Mom bought them. The Receiver on the other hand...

 

[Adam41591]

I suppose the reason I'm looking for a change is sometimes the sound seems "congested"? Not sure if thats the right word.Maybe a more dynamic sound is what I'm looking for. Certain tracks also seem especially bright while very nice recordings sound fantastic. e.g. Sarah Mclachlan's "Surfacing"

 

[T2T]

I suppose the reason I'm looking for a change is sometimes the sound seems "congested"? Not sure if thats the right word.Maybe a more dynamic sound is what I'm looking for. Certain tracks also seem especially bright while very nice recordings sound fantastic. e.g. Sarah Mclachlan's "Surfacing"

Are you only using CDs as your source of music? There are many bad recordings out there - unfortunately, we're also stuck with them and deal with them each and every day. If you were playing MP3s through your system, that could be part of the problem. MP3s ripped via different methods and bit rates can have a dramatic effect on the sound quality your system produces.

Actually I'm very happy my Infinity's. I realize they're not high-end but I'm not gonna change them. Personal attachment I guess, my Mom bought them. The Receiver on the other hand...

The Beta 20s are actually quite good speakers. Good speaker efficiency and sound.

 

[Adam41591]

I always use CDs, never mp3s, they give me the willies. When I started to find out how much "the man" has been screwing us over, I was so disheartened. Think of all the music they ruined. And it's not just Jay-Z, it's everywhere.

Also, does anyone have Keane "Under the Iron Sea"? That record seemed especially bright & harsh, and I love Keane.

 

[TLS Guy]

Actually I'm very happy my Infinity's. I realize they're not high-end but I'm not gonna change them. Personal attachment I guess, my Mom bought them. The Receiver on the other hand...

If you continue to have an emotional attachment to those speakers, your sound will stay congested. In fact if you put more power to them you will have even more thermal compression.

Speakers are everything my friend.

 

[Adam41591]

Thanks for the quick reply, I guess I need some time to think about what's next. BTW your gallery is..well it's just...wow.

 

[T2T]

Some other items to consider:

1) Are you tweeters for your speakers at ear level?

2) Are the speakers stand-mounted on 24-26" stands to ensure the tweeters are at ear level when you're sitting?

3) Are the speakers positioned in an equilateral triangle, with you, the listener, being the 3rd point of the triangle?

4) Have you adjusted the toe-in or toe-out on the speakers to see if the sound changes?

5) Have you considered having a hearing test conducted? Or, even having your ears cleaned? (serious question)

There could be many things that are making the sound of your system seem congested.

 

[Adam41591]

Some other items to consider:

1) Are you tweeters for your speakers at ear level?

2) Are the speakers stand-mounted on 24-26" stands to ensure the tweeters are at ear level when you're sitting?

3) Are the speakers positioned in an equilateral triangle, with you, the listener, being the 3rd point of the triangle?

4) Have you adjusted the toe-in or toe-out on the speakers to see if the sound changes?

5) Have you considered having a hearing test conducted? Or, even having your ears cleaned? (serious question)

There could be many things that are making the sound of your system seem congested.

1) Yes they have always been at ear level, amazing what a difference that made.

2) Seeing as the tweeters are at ear level, I'm sure the stands are the right height.

3) Yes they're positioned correctly.

4) They are in fact toed in, but I've never tried toe-out. Wouldn't that affect the imaging incorrectly? Then again, maybe that would help with especially bright recordings.

5) Haven't had a hearing test in quite some time, but yes, my ears are squeaky clean.

6) Thanks so much for taking the time to help a rookie. Finding good advice at stores is like looking for a good vein on Amy Whinehouse.

 

[Adam41591]

In case anyone wants to see this, here you go. BTW, it's really fantastic that sites like Audioholics, AVS & Blu-ray.com seem to really care about their users.

The Beginning...

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=Adam41591

 

[KEW]

Actually what I listed is what I own. The Velodyne, the Receiver & the Speakers are already purchased. Sorry if there was any confusion. I think what you're saying is a new receiver is the next best step. Correct?

Yes, I understood that you already own the HK receiver. Unfortunately you cannot build upon that receiver - you'll have to replace it before you can improve your amplification.

With the HK at 30 Watts, depending on the size of your room, it is possible that you are running into headroom limits, and I think the Marantz would give you the upgrade capability but probably eliminate the need for it.
Your receiver would no longer be the weak link in your system.

However, you would be wise to check the factors addressed by T2T. The fact that you do get clear sound from your system sometimes gives credence to his suggestion that it is not your gear.

I just looked up your speakers and at 90db, they are pretty efficient for bookshelfs. However, most bookshelfs are not made to fill a large room, so TLS Guy may be right that the problem is with your speakers.

What are the dimensions of your room? LxWxH
Do you really like to crank it?
Is your system a 2.1? 5.1? or otherwise?

If I had your system and was looking to upgrade on a budget, I would get the Marantz first, then move the Betas to the rear and get Infiniti P362's for mains (I'm guessing you have a 2.1 system). The P362's are a sweet spot (sound vs cost). However, you would still run into crappy sound out of CD's which are simply not recorded well enough to sound good on a quality system.

One more thing to check. Do you have your Betas set to small in your receiver? I don't know how your bass management works but you need to be sure that you are letting the sub handle the low end and that your Beta's and receiver are freed from having to produce the demanding low frequencies. That could really suck the power out of your receiver in a hurry!

 

[Adam41591]

Yes, I understood that you already own the HK receiver. Unfortunately you cannot build upon that receiver - you'll have to replace it before you can improve your amplification.

With the HK at 30 Watts, depending on the size of your room, it is possible that you are running into headroom limits, and I think the Marantz would give you the upgrade capability but probably eliminate the need for it.
Your receiver would no longer be the weak link in your system.

However, you would be wise to check the factors addressed by T2T. The fact that you do get clear sound from your system sometimes gives credence to his suggestion that it is not your gear.

I just looked up your speakers and at 90db, they are pretty efficient for bookshelfs. However, most bookshelfs are not made to fill a large room, so TLS Guy may be right that the problem is with your speakers.

What are the dimensions of your room? LxWxH
Do you really like to crank it?
Is your system a 2.1? 5.1? or otherwise?

If I had your system and was looking to upgrade on a budget, I would get the Marantz first, then move the Betas to the rear and get Infiniti P362's for mains (I'm guessing you have a 2.1 system). The P362's are a sweet spot (sound vs cost). However, you would still run into crappy sound out of CD's which are simply not recorded well enough to sound good on a quality system.

One more thing to check. Do you have your Betas set to small in your receiver? I don't know how your bass management works but you need to be sure that you are letting the sub handle the low end and that your Beta's and receiver are freed from having to produce the demanding low frequencies. That could really suck the power out of your receiver in a hurry!

Thanks for getting back. The size of my room is 11x13 with 9ft ceilings. There are times when cranking really brings out the dynamics, but living with other people puts limitations on how loud you can go. To your other question, I currently have a 2.1 system and I don't see that changing, not with the size of my room. Besides, a simple stereo setup is VERY satisfying in itself. I think I'm going to start heading in the direction of upgrading my receiver. Marantz will be at the top of my list, but is there any other brands you recommend staying away from? It seems like Denon is a little expensive, Pioneer isn't chosen much until you get to the elite Line. Am I way off base? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

BTW, I just set the speakers to small & I'm going to see how that works out. Thanks so much guys, I really appreciate this.

 

[indulger]

BTW, I just set the speakers to small & I'm going to see how that works out. Thanks so much guys, I really appreciate this.

Doh!!

I think everyone has covered everything. I just wanted to say great photos. Looks like something out of a magazine the way they were taken.

 

[KEW]

Thanks for getting back. The size of my room is 11x13 with 9ft ceilings. There are times when cranking really brings out the dynamics, but living with other people puts limitations on how loud you can go. To your other question, I currently have a 2.1 system and I don't see that changing, not with the size of my room. Besides, a simple stereo setup is VERY satisfying in itself. I think I'm going to start heading in the direction of upgrading my receiver. Marantz will be at the top of my list, but is there any other brands you recommend staying away from? It seems like Denon is a little expensive, Pioneer isn't chosen much until you get to the elite Line. Am I way off base? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

BTW, I just set the speakers to small & I'm going to see how that works out. Thanks so much guys, I really appreciate this.

Setting the speakers to small will definitely make a difference and I suspect it may solve the issue entirely. Your room is not too big for Betas in a 2.1 bookshelf system.

On the subject of receivers, The reason I chose it was simply because Accessories4less sells it as a factory refurb. I have bought two receivers and two CD players from them and all have been excellent. I actually returned a receiver (which I mistakenly thought was defective) and was amazed at how easy the process was (they didn't treat me like I was trying to "cheat" them). I realized later that I misunderstood how the settings were supposed to work. If you search this forum for Accessories4less, you will find lots of posts from happy buyers.

A4L also sells Onkyo, which is a good manufacturer of receivers, However, among the currently available offerings, I felt the Marantz offered better value - it is an extremely capable unit for that price! The HK units are also good (you just have the misfortune of getting one of their "economy" units), and, I have to say that they do look slick - with the the blue volume knob. If you want to upgrade and stick with HK, there is "Harman Audio" on ebay. However, I'm not sure of they sell HT receivers. All I see today are stereo receivers.
http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio

Cheers,
Kurt