My quest for stereo loudspeakers under $3,000

[perpetualglass]

As is a common experience that I read here online, I first started off with my dream bookshelves, the B&W 685s. After about a week, I realized that the bookshelves just did not put out enough real musical sound. After taking them back to the local Best Buy, I gave the CM9s a listen with my dedicated 7 cds or so, and thought "Wow, that's exactly what I'm looking for. The harshness of the Kevlar midranges have finally been perfected at volume!" (compared to what I had experienced years ago).

Or so I thought. After taking these speakers home, and after playing them for about 4 days on my amplifier (I'll get to that later), I finally had a good 8 hour listening day, while working on the computer and going about life as usual. The next morning, my ears felt like I had been at a concert, not ringing, but not comfortable. I thought "Gee, I hadn't cranked them that loud", but upon firing the system back up, it became apparent that it was the speakers, specifically the Kevlar midrange.

Now of course acoustics of the room are paramount, and due to the room treatments and the relatively low listening levels, I knew it couldn't be that. Many dealers, insisted that it must be the Marantz 5007 that I was using to power these, yet listening to the CM9s on whatever Rotel/ATI/available tube amp yielded the same result.

Maybe it's something that can only be heard by us whom have supersonic hearing, who can hear the RF whine of a running, yet blackened television several rooms over, or those of us who brace ourselves before quickly walking past anti shoplifting radio towers that emit their blaring whine.

...

So far, my listened to unit include

Everything that is available at Best Buy, minus the Diamond series.
Paradigm Studio series
GoldenEar Triton 2
HSU Research
Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers with NRT domes
Ed Frias Enterprises T-42s & T-50s

Listened to units and my opinons in the next post

 

[perpetualglass]

My main demo CDs are The Art of Noise' Seduction of Claude Debussy, Andreas Vollenweider's Cosmopoly and Kryptos, Hooverphonic's A Stereophonic Sound Spectacular, Tom Petty's Wildflowers, Stanley Clarke's School Days, and Daft Punk's Da Funk.

I initially visited Audio & Video Today to listen to the GoldenEar Triton 2s, which I had had on order, simply so I could demo them in home, since no place in Arizona had them on demo. Naturally, these were the first speakers I listened to.

I found them to be quite amazing as far as imaging, transparency, and overall sound production. Their sound was soft and detailed. Far more detailed than one assumes due to their lack of tweeter sibilance. They were both laid back and detailed, exactly what I was after! However, they had one major drawback, their narrow vertical dispersion meant that if I was standing up, I could not hear the tweeters, unless I was standing some 15 or 20 feet away. In fact, those tweeters were nothing short of laser beams as far as their dispersion goes, which is why the tow in is so important for proper imaging. Some people may like a speaker than gives them only one sweet spot, but that's a job for headphones in my book.

Other drawbacks of this speakers (for me) include their side loaded subwoofer, which is extremely dependent on room placement, and their lack of musicality. I think these would be PERFECT for most people who want a setup that is at least 50% or moreso home theater driven. Their sound was exceptional for the value...they just seemed cold and dry, I'm not sure how else to describe their musical quality. This is something that the B&W CM9s, CM8s, Paradigm Studio 60s did not lack, as stated earlier, however, I just can not stand the piercing midrange found in the B&Ws. I found that the Paradigm studio 60s performed like a smoother, more detailed version of the CM8, and would have loved to have heard the Studio 100s, unfortunately, they were out of my price range. I briefly listened to the B&W 803 (or were they 804s?), but I would need to win the lottery before I could even begin considering those, so the listen did not include any of my music.

So off I drove to HSU research, just to hear their mythical hornloaded tweeters, and as has been stated in every review, they are simply magical. If only they had made a full range tower speaker.

Then off to Ascend Acoustics...

Upon first hearing the Sierra Towers with NRT tweeters, I knew that I was hearing a speaker that was in an a completely different league than anything I had heard previously. I now wish I had given the B&W Diamonds a good listen to have a basis of comparison. Up until this point, I have never heard a soft dome tweeter that was as detailed as an aluminum dome, down to the metallic pings of snare drum hardware and scratches of callouses on strings. I didn't really have much time to listen to them, as wanted to beat the SoCal traffic that I had moved away from, but I knew that my new dilemma was to spend the extra dough for some RAAL tweeters.

I was planning on demoing some VonSchweikert VR-22s, but nobody got back to me until I had left Southern California, which is unfortunate since I was staying in my hometown of Riverside (where VonSchweikert is based).

Now to drive to Ed Frias on the drive home tomorrow...

 

[Swerd]

You got it right in your first post !

It's not the aluminum tweeter, its not the receiver or amplifier, its not the room…

It really is the harshness of B&W's Kevlar midrange that you find so objectionable.

Seriously, there has to be some kind of award for this. I can't tell you how many people have heard that harshness and blamed it on anything other than the Kevlar mid driver. For reasons I do not understand, B&W insists on crossing it over to the tweeter at an unreasonably high frequency of 3,500 or 4,000 Hz (depending on the model). That makes the harshness more audible.

The B&W 800 series speakers do not suffer from that harshness, but they come at a much higher price. It has been said that they seem like they were made by a different company than the one that makes the 600 and CM series speakers.

There are other speakers in your price range that deliver on both detail and smoothness. You found one already in the Sierra tower. I suggest trying to find some Salk SongTower speakers.

The real key to achieving smooth and detailed sound is in the crossover and not in the materials of the mid range cone or the tweeter.

 

[perpetualglass]

You got it right in your first post !

It's not the aluminum tweeter, its not the receiver or amplifier, its not the room…

It really is the harshness of B&W's Kevlar midrange that you find so objectionable.

Seriously, there has to be some kind of award for this. I can't tell you how many people have heard that harshness and blamed it on anything other than the Kevlar mid driver. For reasons I do not understand, B&W insists on crossing it over to the tweeter at an unreasonably high frequency of 3,500 or 4,000 Hz (depending on the model). That makes the harshness more audible.

This is something that I learned early on, maybe 15 years ago when I was initially into the whole DIY car audio thing. If I remember it correctly, it was somewhere in the 3.2k-4.4k range, with maybe 2 or 3 distinct peaks being the culprit, which would be verified by your instilled wisdom.

 

[perpetualglass]

Continued from above

...So at this point, I was thinking that the Ascend Sierras were the end all-be-all of audio bliss within my price range, and then Ed Frias goes and messes all that up. His T-50s are easily the best speakers that I've had the privilege of hearing, and in a sonically untreated room! For the first time it becomes what is truly meant by soundSTAGE, in addition to the transparency that most of the above speakers demonstrate. My biggest qualm is their size...not large by any means, but at 50" tall, and a base that is 14" wide by 16" deep, it's bigger than what I had wanted to put into my bedroom. I'm sure his T-42s were magical as well, but they were kind of dwarfed by everything that the T-50s are. I'm fairly certain the T-42 would be in the same category as most of the other under $3k per pair speakers that I have considered....


Fast forward to today, where I got delivery of my SVS Ultra Towers.

These seem to be solid performers in all aspects of music and home theater, and without having the Sierra Towers right next to them, it will be tough to say which is better for music, but I think the edge for music would go to the Ascend Sierras, who also lead in footprint. These SVS towers, produce extraordinary bottom end, but do so out of a ridiculously large enclosure. There is no way I could have guessed that their enclosures were pyramidal, based upon the photos on their website. I would give them the edge over the Sierras in the HT world. They also tend to focus their sweet spot at seated level much more so than the Sierras or the CM9s, HOWEVER, the full range music and tweeter can still be heard while standing in front of them, unlike the GoldenEar Tritons.


In summary, I guess I'll need to find somebody out in AZ with some Ascend Sierras (and hopefully of the RAAL) variant, before I truly makeup my mind. Before I started this little journey, GoldenEar Tritons were my initial want, but after hearing them and dealing with their Tucson distributor, they became a distant last. I guess I would describe their sound as thin and sterile in the midrange (Added here, since I can't edit my above post). The Ascend Sierras were almost not heard due to the difficulty of making contact with Ascend (it took a several emails, calls, and days before they would get back to me), but I'm glad I did! I'm only a little wary of their lack of payment options (AMEX cough cough, or even another payment service that allows me to use AMEX to transfer funds) and by the different answers I receive about minutia such as warranty and shipping options. SVS has by far been the easiest company to deal with, and Ed Frias was an absolute joy to deal with! Now if only Madisound still sold his DIY kit...

 

[perpetualglass]

The real key to achieving smooth and detailed sound is in the crossover and not in the materials of the mid range cone or the tweeter.

After much discussion with Ed while listening to his wonderful lineup, it sounds as though the crossover is the culprit of many of the disagreeable qualities found in the speakers that I had heard, including the laser beam like projection of the Tritons.

 

[Goat1]

Maybe you should try Martin Logan Electromotion ESL's. I tried all the speakers you mentioned except for the internet direct speakers. The Logan's spanked all. I listened to the CM9's a lot and I thought it was more the metallic sounding tweeter that offended. Just couldn't get over it. Pairing the speakers with the right receiver/amp is extremely important.

 

[perpetualglass]

Maybe you should try Martin Logan Electromotion ESL's.

I completely forgot to write my review for these! I thought they sounded quite amazing, but they have an even worse case of unidirectional sound than the GoldenEar Tritons. I tend to prefer headphones when considering audio sources with sweet spot issues.

 

[perpetualglass]

Perhaps I should look at some DIY kits. Any suggestions? Or threads one could point me toward? My energy and OCD does run out, unfortunately.

 

[3db]

Have you looked at the PSB Synchrony 1 or their Imagine T2 towers?

 

[jp_over]

If I didn't have Salk Song Towers, I'd take a serious look at these: RBH Sound SX-6300/R Tower Speaker Review

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would get a Rythmik FV15HP for $1200 + bookshelf or towers for $1800.

2m SPL @ 32/40/50/60 Hz:
Epik Empire: 109.7/113.2/116.4/119.2
Paradigm Sig Sub2: 109.9/113.2/116.9/120.2
Hsu VTF-15H: 113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
Velodyne DD18+: 113.0/115.8/116.8/115.3
SVS PB13 Ultra: 115.5/117.5/117.8/116.6
Chase HT VS18.1: 116.0/118.1/117.8/117.2
Rythmik FV15HP: 117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8

These Focal Electra monitors were $3500 MSRP, and I bet you could talk them to selling for $1700 (listing $1995). I bought the TAD 2201 for $1691 and they are listed for $1900.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-38925-focal-electra-1007-s-bookshelf-speakers-pr.aspx

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-104628-tad-tsm-2201-lr-studio-monitor-pr.aspx

 

[Goat1]

I'd love to see your review. Did you actually have the Logan's in your house? I think they sound absolutely glorious! But to each his own.

 

[perpetualglass]

I have listened to a full setup of what I believe was T4 towers and found them only to be listenable if I put tape over the tweeters. Never have been a fan of Titanium tweeters.

 

[mtrot]

Willing to buy used?

If you are willing to consider used speakers, you can pick up some pretty nice Dynaudios or Revels for $3000 or less. The Revel F32 is going for as low as $1500, and the F52 as low as $2700 now. I bought my Dynaudio Audience 82s for $1200.

 

[Swerd]

Perhaps I should look at some DIY kits. Any suggestions? Or threads one could point me toward? My energy and OCD does run out, unfortunately.

A DIY design that competes very well with commercial speakers in your price range is the ER18 MTM.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/68531-new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-dennis-murphy-paul-kittinger.html

The complete write-up is available in pdf form here
http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonicaudio/images/ER MTM Ribbon or Dome Tweeter copy.pdf

The parts are now available through Meniscus Audio DIY Speaker Components | Replacement Speakers | and Speaker kits from Meniscus Audio Group.

There are several build threads of these speakers with nice photos in the Audioholics DIY Corner. Look for any thread with ER18 MTM in the title.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/82317-my-er18mtm-build.html

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/84035-er18-mtm-first-time-build.html

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/79724-er18-build-real-time.html

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/80945-my-long-delayed-er18-mtm-still-progress.html

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/81235-yet-another-er18-build-time-sweden.html

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Revel F52 as low as $2700 now.

That would be a great buy right there!

 

[perpetualglass]

At this point, I'm fairly certain that I'm going to going with the a DIY rig even though I lack most woodworking tools (precut would be ideal) or with the Ascends (possibly with RAALs), unless I can find any of the listed speakers for listening in Phoenix or Prescott, although I may be willing to travel to some shops in SoCal on my next drive out. I suppose my lack of tooling limits most of my DIY options unless kits are available.

I should add that looks are not important to me, and titanium domes are out of the question, unless they have been tuned to remove the ear piercing sibilance.

It's all about the sound for me, without requiring a huge amount of floorspace.


Refraining from a beaming sweetspot is paramount. I have headphones for that.

 

[perpetualglass]

SVS Ultra Tower review:

First, let me say that I have never owned a real subwoofer, so the amount of bottom end from these things is startling. Startling in their ability to cleanly integrate realistic bass, that was even missing with the CM9s which I had. Unfortunately, that's where my favoritism of them ends. The midrange from these drivers lacks warmth, and even seems to have a dip, in relation to their wonderful mid bass, bass, and slightly overbearing highs. Transparency is a term that belongs nowhere in describing their sound, it is very obvious to me that there are metallic domes involved, and frankly, the midwoofers remind me of some of the older and unrefined aluminum cones. Whether the overbearing highs translate into harshness at volume, I do not know, since I'm not a loud listener, but they are far friendlier to my ears the the B&W CM9s.

These kind of remind me of some of the older high end JBL monitors that semi professional DJs would bring with them to parties...excellent in every aspect, EXCEPT the midranges, perhaps that's a bit exaggerated. It's for this reason, that I would delegate them to being recommended for home theater. Also of extreme dissatisfaction, is their enormity. I contacted SVS today to let them know about how they need an overhead shot and perhaps a line drawing to show dimensions. Yes, I know they have them listed, but even just seeing the dimensions does not help everybody to understand the footprint of these guys, and it's not really on par with the great customer service that SVS has shown me otherwise.

If it weren't for the footprint issue, and the lack of midrange, these would be my new faves. Believe me, I REALLY WANT to love these, every visual detail down to the black oak veneer is amazing. They just look fabulous, high tech, and modern. Their sound would be PERFECT for me if they were to go into a mixed HT setup, but I am not one to watch many movies, nor do I have the available space to accommodate them. Oh well.

 

[Swerd]

At this point, I'm fairly certain that I'm going to going with the a DIY rig even though I lack most woodworking tools (precut would be ideal) or with the Ascends (possibly with RAALs), unless I can find any of the listed speakers for listening in Phoenix or Prescott, although I may be willing to travel to some shops in SoCal on my next drive out. I suppose my lack of tooling limits most of my DIY options unless kits are available.

I should add that looks are not important to me, and titanium domes are out of the question, unless they have been tuned to remove the ear piercing sibilance.

It's all about the sound for me, without requiring a huge amount of floorspace.

Refraining from a beaming sweetspot is paramount. I have headphones for that.

At this point, I don't know of any kit cabinets for the ER18 MTM. Meniscus Audio (in Michigan) sells the parts as a kit, and they also build speaker cabinets. Ask them what they would charge to build a pair.

Also ask Dennis Murphy and Ed Frias if they can recommend a speaker cabinet builder.

I'd like to think that a local cabinet building shop could also build these. They certainly can do excellent woodwork, veneering, and finishing. However others who have tried this have warned that local cabinet builders, who often make furniture or kitchen cabinets, may say that can build these better than what is specified in the instructions. While they may know how to make better furniture or kitchen cabinets, don't let them change the design. It's a speaker not a kitchen cabinet. It would be ideal to find a local cabinet shop that has prior speaker cabinet experience. Good luck with that!

If you want painted cabinets instead of veneer, I strongly suggest getting an estimate from an auto body shop. They can prime, paint, and apply glossy finishes better and quicker than anyone at home. It may cost less than you think. Auto body paints and clear coats are probably much better than any materials you may find at the usual retail outlets.

Once someone does all the woodwork and finishing, maybe you could do all the assembly and wiring. If you choose to go this route, please contact me by PM. There are some steps (installing polyester stuffing, crossover boards, and wiring) that are much much easier to do before the cabinets are assembled and completely glued up. The instructions don't clearly spell all that out.