psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
Many people say that it doesn't matter, or matter too much, if your surrounds/rears are not the same brand or same series as the L/R/C.

Does this apply if the fronts and center have fabric tweeters and the surrounds/rears have aluminum tweeters?

If I were to move my Deftechs (aluminum tweeter) to surround duty and the new fronts and center have fabric tweeters, would there be an audible difference in sound between the fabric and aluminum tweeters?


Thanks.

Barry
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
would there be an audible difference in sound between the fabric and aluminum tweeters?
Thanks.

Barry
I'm going to say No. I'm a believer that all speakers should be from at least the same family. But I don't think using your Def Tech as surrounds, and using something different for mains would create an issue.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
For surround music, I like to match. For movie surround sound, not a
big deal to me. I just want to level match for movies.

I know you are aiming higher - however, this Definitive SM 55 has caught
my attention. The early word on them is good.
http://www.onecall.com/product/Definitive-Technology/Studio-Monitor-55-Ea/Speaker/_/R-112929
http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=177&catid=72&Itemid=209

Now, I hope this thread goes better than your audition thread.:rolleyes::):D
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
If I were to move my Deftechs (aluminum tweeter) to surround duty and the new fronts and center have fabric tweeters, would there be an audible difference in sound between the fabric and aluminum tweeters?
Not unless the crossover voicing is different in the midrange, which is what it boils down to.

The difference between metal and fabric might show up at higher SPLs (which surrounds won't get anyways), higher frequencies (which surrounds won't get anyways and even if they did would likely be too far off axis for them to reach you as 1" tweeters tend to beam > 8khz) but isn't likely a big deal with current state of the art drivers. They're surrounds at the end of the day.

Now the issue with surrounds is something much more problematic than just the brand of speakers you use.

The issue, is that wherever you sit besides the sweet spot, the surround speaker closest to you will dominate response. Sound falls off at around 6db for every doubling of distance, so the difference in level between your two surround speakers is the #1 issue. You will likely be close enough to the surrounds that every shift in seat makes that level difference all the more significant (more so than even your stereo mains).

The problem is that for surround sound, we rely on level similarities to experience spaciousness. If the nearest speaker dominates the surround field, then the results are mediocre - the surround field really just falls apart into "sounds coming from the speaker"

The solution extends well beyond "using the same drivers".

You need the seats to get the same SPL balance of sound from both surround speakers in the upper mids/treble... and not just the sweet spot because when it comes to recordings with surround, IE movies, you want everyone to be enveloped by the surround field.

So to answer your question after my long tangent:

There's a lot more to it than the difference between metal and silk. You could have identical speakers and even still have issues because surrounds are normally placed above ear level, so the tonal balance is affected by lobing between the drivers. There's also the ceiling reflection which changes the tonal balance again. There's the fact that sounds change timbre when firing directly into our ears compared to coming from in front of us, and again when coming from behind us. If you really want to maximize the surround experience based on , it could be argued that the surround speakers should NOT be the same as the front speakers - but they should have a similar tonal balance at the listening position. Your best bets for surround speakers are large coaxials (IE 12" or larger, aimed diagonally down at the farthest seats) and true floor-to-ceiling line arrays (only a 3db rolloff for every doubling of distance) and I wouldn't be too concerned about <100hz or >8khz performance.
 
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D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Many people say that it doesn't matter, or matter too much, if your surrounds/rears are not the same brand or same series as the L/R/C.

Does this apply if the fronts and center have fabric tweeters and the surrounds/rears have aluminum tweeters?
I wouldn't worry about it.

At the very least, given that you're buying speakers for up front anyway and you'll already have the ones you want to move back, I'd try them and see how they do.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
The problem is that for surround sound, we rely on level similarities to experience spaciousness. If the nearest speaker dominates the surround field, then the results are mediocre.

The solution extends well beyond "using the same drivers".

You need the seats to get the same SPL balance of sound from both surround speakers in the upper mids/treble...
Good points all.

Add to that, often mixers on otherwise great tracks do dumb things with surrounds. For example, the consistent cymbal splashing in the surround channels on the Brothers-in-Arms SACD.

FWIW, the best-sounding solution I've found for surrounds is coincident or Dual Concentric drivers, mounted higher than the listening position AND firing up towards the ceiling. The actual drivers aren't that important: I couldn't tell much if any difference between 5" KEFs and 8" Tannoys.

Localization is much more impaired by the geometry of the ear than the speaker. On pieces with primary content in the back channels on occasion, such as the back-balcony trumpets on Mahler 8, the extra diffusion doesn't seem to materially affect the imaging. But stupid things like the B-in-A cymbal splashes become much less annoying than with surrounds firing directly at the listener.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Many people say that it doesn't matter, or matter too much, if your surrounds/rears are not the same brand or same series as the L/R/C.

Does this apply if the fronts and center have fabric tweeters and the surrounds/rears have aluminum tweeters?

If I were to move my Deftechs (aluminum tweeter) to surround duty and the new fronts and center have fabric tweeters, would there be an audible difference in sound between the fabric and aluminum tweeters?


Thanks.

Barry
I think, the answer is it depends. Good is good and when matching speakers, it is trying to get speakers with the same faults.

I have speakers with an assortment of drivers, but they all have a remarkably similar tonal balance.

I think the worst thing in a surround or rear would be to have a speaker that draws attention to itself. You really don't want to localize to rears or backs at all.

I can tell you one thing, these new BD discs my grandchildren come with make it seem to have saved up for a home destroyers!

The two older boys seem to be getting seriously interested in all of this nonsense.

Anyhow the last disc was Real Steel. My goodness that 7.1 BD gave every speaker a huge work out. I know for a fact there was often huge power demands on all speakers at once. So the way some of these BDs are getting put together now you can't have a weak link anywhere.

My surrounds have only 100 watts going to each speaker, supplied by a now venerable Quad 405-2. Well I checked the gear after that screening, and I have never heated a Quad 405 up that much ever. The rear were OK as they are biamped and have two 405-2s. I just don't know how receivers cope with this, as I can tell you all channels were driven hard at the same time, especially in the final robot boxing match, with the large crowd screaming all round you.

The movie is not profound, but I admit I had a lot of fun watching it, especially the grandchildren screaming with delight.

The bottom line is that I think the ground is shifting on what is demanded of surrounds and rears.

So I snagged another Quad 909 this weekend for a very good price on eBay, as if the grandchildren keep this up, I will smoke an amp.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
For multichannel music, matching is the only way to go, and to go a step further they would ideally all be identical speakers. It is a bonus for movies, but I've found that it seems to matter far less for movie tracks. I had mismatched surrounds for years and it wasn't until I got matching surrounds that I really appreciated the fact that it DOES make a difference. My focus is mainly music though, so I lean more in the direction of having them match, that does not mean everyone needs to, but to say that it doesn't matter isn't correct.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
... but to say that it doesn't matter isn't correct.
While I agree with this, I agree 'more' with Mazer simply because I don't think Barry is listening to multi-channel music. I don't recall him ever talking about SACD or DVD-A. Most listen to music in 2 channel with the help of a sub. For movies I would rather have mismatched surrounds than no surrounds but the ultimate would be 5 or 7 identical speakers (center included). It's just not practical for most.

Barry, have you got a new front stage?

Anyhow the last disc was Real Steel. My goodness that 7.1 BD gave every speaker a huge work out. I know for a fact there was often huge power demands on all speakers at once.
Regarding the above I wonder where the center and surrounds get crossed, if at all. I watched this with an 80 Hz crossover and lower frequencies filtered out. I just don't bother with stuff I can't reproduce. While it was a loud movie, nothing blew up in Condoland but I'm not trying to wow a crowd either.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
For multichannel music, matching is the only way to go, and to go a step further they would ideally all be identical speakers. It is a bonus for movies, but I've found that it seems to matter far less for movie tracks. I had mismatched surrounds for years and it wasn't until I got matching surrounds that I really appreciated the fact that it DOES make a difference. My focus is mainly music though, so I lean more in the direction of having them match, that does not mean everyone needs to, but to say that it doesn't matter isn't correct.
I strongly disagree with all of that.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I strongly disagree with all of that.
Not a problem. That is your opinion and I have mine. Your comments suggest you've listened to mixed systems but you didn't say if you've done a matched setup. Just because you don't hear a difference doesn't mean there isn't one, since you yourself are saying that our ears are a compromise. With multichannel music, I DON'T like a diffused sound in the rears. There are plenty of decent multichannel tracks that like a very specific placement of the sounds such as DSoTM or Roxy Music's Avalon SACDs. When things move around the room from speaker to speaker, it is important to be able to place within the room where they are coming from, especially when they are moving in a progressive circular motion. Not ALL surround music is this way, and I completely agree that there are some multichannel mixes that are little more than gimmick. Then there are engineers who are really GOOD at 5.1 mixes like Steven Wilson.

I use monopole surrounds, that is, 5 identical speakers. The surrounds fire toward the center of the room, not directly at the listener. In my former rooms this worked extremely well. In my current room, I probably won't be able to pull it off, so I will most likely move to a 3.1 setup and listen either in 3.1 or stereo. I have a second place though, with a huge room and that one has been stereo for years, so some of the gear will go up there and that will be my multichannel rig now.
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
Barry, have you got a new front stage?
No. I have decided that I am getting these by next week;

EMP Tek E55Ti Tower Speakers--March Madness Sale 3/2012

With this;

EMP Tek E56Ci Large Center Channel Speaker--March Madness Sale 3/2012

My room is kind of small, (16'11"Long and 14'2" wide) and the couch is against the back wall. 14' from the front wall to the front edge of the couch. The surrounds are on stands with tweeter positioned slightly forward and slightly higher than ear level. They are 11" from the rear wall and 6" from the side wall.
I'm having trouble loading room pics..I'll post them later.

Music 90% Movies/tv 10%

When I listen to music it's 2.1. Movies/tv it's either Dolby PLllz movie, or all channel, (5.1)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
That ain't a knife, THERE'S a KNIFE....I mean how about THIS as less than ideal :) Been a while since I had this setup. Was like the first week in the house.

 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
I strongly disagree with all of that.
J_Garcia is absolutely correct. If multi channel music is your thing then matching speakers or speakers from the same family are recommended.

I also think that for home theater all speakers should be the same for absolute seamless sound quality. But this is unrealistic is many homes because of many reasons (room size, furniture, placement issues, visual appearance, ext.). That is why speakers in the same family (series) come in many sizes.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I think LH just scored those towers and is waiting to pull the trigger on that center.
Did you 'audition' them? :D

Music 90% Movies/tv 10%

When I listen to music it's 2.1.
No doubt you will eventually get surrounds from the same family and be able to answer the original question but
for now based on use I think it's not likely to make much of a difference.

Speaking of less than than ideal situations here's my surrounds from the primary listening position.

Left



Right



According to one set of rules they are about right, a couple of feet above the listening position and pointed slightly
ahead of it which is fine except that they're jammed into the corners and of course according to another set of rules
for MCM they would be way closer to the same height as the listener. It's like when you figure you got all the answers,
they change the questions.
 
A

ack_bak

Audioholic
J_Garcia is absolutely correct. If multi channel music is your thing then matching speakers or speakers from the same family are recommended.

I also think that for home theater all speakers should be the same for absolute seamless sound quality. But this is unrealistic is many homes because of many reasons (room size, furniture, placement issues, visual appearance, ext.). That is why speakers in the same family (series) come in many sizes.
I have to say, I have mixed and matched surrounds and mains (brands of speakers, tweeter type was the same) for years for home theater, and combined with EQ, I always thought it sounded pretty seamless.

For the new house I went with a matching brand and series that, per the manufacturer, is timbre matched, and after EQ, it sounds great but not any more seamless to me than when I matched different brands and speakers for the surrounds. Again this is strictly for home theater, and I suppose if you have the budget it is smart to match speakers when possible, but I really don't think most people would notice a drastic difference assuming you are matching speakers with similar characteristics and quality.

Now matching completely different styles of speakers, or going with a really low end speaker for surrounds, could definitely have an impact on the sound quality. Have not tried that one yet :)
 

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