Low Volume Fidelity VS Power Ratings

[Hetfield]

I guess every amp sound the same is the conclusion huh? A 279 dollar receiver with it's processing and amp will sound the same as a 10,000 dollar amp? No money doesn't n mean everything, but it means something. Ya know recently read that a Ferrari drives the same as pinto too so this all makes sense now.

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[lovinthehd]

What i mean is a more clear and sharp mostly on the midrange side crisp clean distinction in voices and instruments thats what i mean im sorry im not too savy in describing or knowledgeable in audio systems but all this is helping me learn. Not sure what all this eat the hat and other coments mean but i think its a concensus about the speakers having a bigger impact and that extremely low distortion levels might not even be an audible difference so not worth the money.

As was said, may be volume related as to how we hear certain frequency ranges at a given volume. Try this article http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/human-hearing-amplitude-sensitivity-part-1

 

[lovinthehd]

I guess every amp sound the same is the conclusion huh? A 279 dollar receiver with it's processing and amp will sound the same as a 10,000 dollar amp? No money doesn't n mean everything, but it means something. Ya know recently read that a Ferrari drives the same as pinto too so this all makes sense now.

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You'd probably be surprised how it doesn't always follow the $. Operated within their respective limits and level matched and excluding your bias (such as cost, aesthetics, reviews you've read, etc)....you just might surprise yourself.

 

[LuisEcho]

Imagine at what levels those soft passages would be? Inaudible, LOL. And the lows would be almost inaudible as well.

Im Going off of memory and might be wrong on this number

 

[Swerd]

What i mean is a more clear and sharp mostly on the midrange side crisp clean distinction in voices and instruments thats what i mean im sorry im not too savy in describing or knowledgeable in audio systems but all this is helping me learn.

Good, you're talking about the mid range, not the low or high frequencies. My first guess is that it could be the off-axis performance of your speakers can be best heard only at high volumes. Try this:

1. Find a quieter musical passage, ideally with a single voice or instrument. A female voice or brass horn (trumpet or french horn) is a good choice because it often has first harmonic overtones at about the same frequencies as the crossover between mid woofer and tweeter.
2. Listen with only one speaker not both. Listen at low volume and at high volume.
3. Walk around the room, listening directly in front of the speaker and off to the sides. Does the sound of the voice or instrument loose any sound quality as you move off to the sides?

If so, the off-axis performance of your speakers is much weaker than the on-axis performance. Your speakers tend to beam, rather than spread those sounds around the room. At high volumes you may be able to hear enough off-axis sound for things to sound good. But at low volumes you mainly hear only the on-axis sound. It can be hard to pin down, but it sounds like something is missing. From what you said, I think this may be going on.

As you probably normally listen in stereo and while sitting in the sweet spot, what you hear is a combination of the direct on-axis sound and the off-axis sound, much of which can be reflected off walls. This combination is what makes for a more realistic and pleasant sound. The balance in a speaker's on-axis and off-axis performance is what makes for that "out of the box" sound where musicians seem to be sitting in your room, rather than inside your speakers.

Not sure what all this eat the hat and other coments mean but i think its a concensus about the speakers having a bigger impact and that extremely low distortion levels might not even be an audible difference so not worth the money.

There too many snarky comments here for my tastes too.

Amps and their distortion levels seem to have little to do with your question. In my experience, I don't hear amp distortion levels until they are higher than 1%. And I don't remember any amp I've heard in decades with performance that poor. Speakers can distort at levels 10 times higher that, especially in the bass frequencies.

 

[LuisEcho]

Good, you're talking about the mid range, not the low or high frequencies. My first guess is that it could be the off-axis performance of your speakers can be best heard only at high volumes. Try this:

1. Find a quieter musical passage, ideally with a single voice or instrument. A female voice or brass horn (trumpet or french horn) is a good choice because it often has first harmonic overtones at about the same frequencies as the crossover between mid woofer and tweeter.
2. Listen with only one speaker not both. Listen at low volume and at high volume.
3. Walk around the room, listening directly in front of the speaker and off to the sides. Does the sound of the voice or instrument loose any sound quality as you move off to the sides?

If so, the off-axis performance of your speakers is much weaker than the on-axis performance. Your speakers tend to beam, rather than spread those sounds around the room. At high volumes you may be able to hear enough off-axis sound for things to sound good. But at low volumes you mainly hear only the on-axis sound. It can be hard to pin down, but it sounds like something is missing. From what you said, I think this may be going on.

As you probably normally listen in stereo and while sitting in the sweet spot, what you hear is a combination of the direct on-axis sound and the off-axis sound, much of which can be reflected off walls. This combination is what makes for a more realistic and pleasant sound. The balance in a speaker's on-axis and off-axis performance is what makes for that "out of the box" sound where musicians seem to be sitting in your room, rather than inside your speakers.
There too many snarky comments here for my tastes too.

Amps and their distortion levels seem to have little to do with your question. In my experience, I don't hear amp distortion levels until they are higher than 1%. And I don't remember any amp I've heard in decades with performance that poor. Speakers can distort at levels 10 times higher that, especially in the bass frequencies.

Thanks for this analysis it makes sense ive learned so much from this thread retailers just want to sell sell sell and it might be much simpler than investing in amps or speakers. I don't think im changing the CM 10's any time soon but will work on looking into better position and maybe just crank up the volume! Thanks guys

 

[KEW]

I guess every amp sound the same is the conclusion huh? A 279 dollar receiver with it's processing and amp will sound the same as a 10,000 dollar amp? No money doesn't n mean everything, but it means something. Ya know recently read that a Ferrari drives the same as pinto too so this all makes sense now.

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I would consider your statement a little too broad of a generalization, but mankind has been making damn fine amps for easily 40 years. Over that time manufacturing and science have used advances to lower the cost and increase reliability, but really haven't done anything to audibly improve the sound quality because it was already perfectly fine! Quality sound from an amplifier is a very well understood and mature science.
Obviously if you have speakers that drop to very low impedance levels and/or are very inefficient, you will need lots of power and often more than a mid-level receiver (and more than a pro-level receiver if you have something like the Status Acoustic 8T's Gene owns).

I totally believe you hear a difference between amps. I know my system sounds better when I am in a good mood as compared to when I feel crappy. The question is, is it really the amp or is it psychological. Instruments/measurements don't lie, but our minds are far too tied to emotion/feeling (especially when music is involved) to be consistently honest.
I feel pretty confident that were I to bring home and hook up a pair of top end Macintosh monoblocks, they would sound better to me...I mean, just look at 'em!!!

As an analogy, here is a great example of how our perceptions are strongly affected by our feelings/expectations:

Or maybe a tamer analogy is the thought scenario of two women that kiss absolutely identical, but one is your ideal of an attractive woman and the other, not at all attractive to you. Kissing them would never be an identical experience between the two (even though it is... before your brain gets a hold of it!).

You don't have to agree with me, but at least you have a better perspective of why you can never convince me short of a double blind study or showing measurements understood to make an audible difference.

 

[KEW]

Not sure what all this eat the hat and other coments mean

Sorry about the distractions!
Most of it is kidding around, some of it is on-going debates. This is a community of sorts and sometimes it shows more than others.
Glad you properly gleaned the relevant information!
I think Swerd is on the mark with his comments.
I would also encourage you to consider setting up a nearfield arrangement if you need to listen to such quiet music (assuming headphones have been ruled out). Try setting up an equilateral triangle with two speakers and your head as the corners with something like 3' on each side and see if you are not impressed by how full the sound is! This generally works a little better with smaller speakers because this close, the distance between the tweeter and woofer become a source of some audio weirdness.

 

[panteragstk]

So, I'll agree with the rude and snarkyness in this thread. Unnecessary.

I will say that I seem to remember Gene measuring a newer Yamaha receiver and finding it under-powered.

It was actually the A860. He even went as far as to say "I'd actually caution people against using 4 ohm speakers or even running 8 ohm tower speakers on the “large” setting"

So, the guys with the Yamaha receivers that bought external amps could have easily heard a big difference in SQ since it would appear that the Yamaha amp is lacking depending on the situation.

That could also be why @Pogre didn't hear as much of a difference. His Marantz 6011 was already pretty good.

I sold Pro amps for awhile and I can tell you that amps do sound different depending on the situation. We had a sub that was difficult to drive (dropped down to 2 ohms) and that sucker could sound totally different depending on the amp used. That wasn't to say that the amps used were defective, but that the speaker had an effect on how well the amp was able to drive it.

So, SPEAKERS make the most difference. Hands down, but nobody can say that a particular speaker/amp/receiver combo sounds a specific way. The receiver amp might suck with that particular set of speakers. Or not.

 

[Hetfield]

So, I'll agree with the rude and snarkyness in this thread. Unnecessary.

I will say that I seem to remember Gene measuring a newer Yamaha receiver and finding it under-powered.

It was actually the A860. He even went as far as to say "I'd actually caution people against using 4 ohm speakers or even running 8 ohm tower speakers on the “large” setting"

So, the guys with the Yamaha receivers that bought external amps could have easily heard a big difference in SQ since it would appear that the Yamaha amp is lacking depending on the situation.

That could also be why @Pogre didn't hear as much of a difference. His Marantz 6011 was already pretty good.

I sold Pro amps for awhile and I can tell you that amps do sound different depending on the situation. We had a sub that was difficult to drive (dropped down to 2 ohms) and that sucker could sound totally different depending on the amp used. That wasn't to say that the amps used were defective, but that the speaker had an effect on how well the amp was able to drive it.

So, SPEAKERS make the most difference. Hands down, but nobody can say that a particular speaker/amp/receiver combo sounds a specific way. The receiver amp might suck with that particular set of speakers. Or not.

Bingo!

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[PENG]

I guess every amp sound the same is the conclusion huh? A 279 dollar receiver with it's processing and amp will sound the same as a 10,000 dollar amp? No money doesn't n mean everything, but it means something. Ya know recently read that a Ferrari drives the same as pinto too so this all makes sense now.

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Really? Who said that?

 

[KEW]

However, at low volumes, our hearing perception is not the same and both the low and the high frequencies are not heard as loud as the mid-range frequencies. The full frequency range becomes imbalanced. The Fletcher-Munson Curve shows exactly what happens to the human hearing for low SPL levels:
http://www.lindos.co.uk/cgi-bin/FlexiData.cgi?SOURCE=Articles&VIEW=full&id=17

Verdinut brings up a good point here. fortunately all you need to do is make sure you turn on Audyssey Dynamic EQ. As I understand it, Dynamic EQ alters the EQ curve to tailor the sound based on your listening level. However note that it will turn up the bass. If you are listening at low-levels so as not to disturb someone, extra bass could be very counterproductive!

Audyssey Dynamic EQ provides precision tonal tailoring for full range clarity at any listening level.

 

[Andrein]

Thanks for this analysis it makes sense ive learned so much from this thread retailers just want to sell sell sell and it might be much simpler than investing in amps or speakers. I don't think im changing the CM 10's any time soon but will work on looking into better position and maybe just crank up the volume! Thanks guys

I would try another amp before even thinking about changing speakers. You can try and return if it sounds the same. Dont be afraid by some of the 'bias' guys. Not everything can be measured. What you hear is much more important than what some ... think.

 

[PENG]

So, I'll agree with the rude and snarkyness in this thread. Unnecessary.

I will say that I seem to remember Gene measuring a newer Yamaha receiver and finding it under-powered.

It was actually the A860. He even went as far as to say "I'd actually caution people against using 4 ohm speakers or even running 8 ohm tower speakers on the “large” setting"

So, the guys with the Yamaha receivers that bought external amps could have easily heard a big difference in SQ since it would appear that the Yamaha amp is lacking depending on the situation.

That could also be why @Pogre didn't hear as much of a difference. His Marantz 6011 was already pretty good.

I sold Pro amps for awhile and I can tell you that amps do sound different depending on the situation. We had a sub that was difficult to drive (dropped down to 2 ohms) and that sucker could sound totally different depending on the amp used. That wasn't to say that the amps used were defective, but that the speaker had an effect on how well the amp was able to drive it.

So, SPEAKERS make the most difference. Hands down, but nobody can say that a particular speaker/amp/receiver combo sounds a specific way. The receiver amp might suck with that particular set of speakers. Or not.

So, I'll agree with the rude and snarkyness in this thread. Unnecessary.

I will say that I seem to remember Gene measuring a newer Yamaha receiver and finding it under-powered.

It was actually the A860. He even went as far as to say "I'd actually caution people against using 4 ohm speakers or even running 8 ohm tower speakers on the “large” setting"

So, the guys with the Yamaha receivers that bought external amps could have easily heard a big difference in SQ since it would appear that the Yamaha amp is lacking depending on the situation.

That could also be why @Pogre didn't hear as much of a difference. His Marantz 6011 was already pretty good.

I sold Pro amps for awhile and I can tell you that amps do sound different depending on the situation. We had a sub that was difficult to drive (dropped down to 2 ohms) and that sucker could sound totally different depending on the amp used. That wasn't to say that the amps used were defective, but that the speaker had an effect on how well the amp was able to drive it.

So, SPEAKERS make the most difference. Hands down, but nobody can say that a particular speaker/amp/receiver combo sounds a specific way. The receiver amp might suck with that particular set of speakers. Or not.

Agree, but you are almost stating the obvious because most people here would not say all amps sound the same unconditionally. They typically would add certain qualifiers such as driven well within their limits, well designed....etc. I have also used the RX-A860 as an example.

I hope everyone would try not to be so sensitive in any discussions on this never ending topic on amp sounds.

 

[Andrein]

I would say we should be normal humans rather than not being sensitive and still rude. What is acceptable in Texas is not in the rest of the world.

 

[Hetfield]

Agree, but you are almost stating the obvious because most people here would not say all amps sound the same unconditionally. They typically would add certain qualifiers such as driven well within their limits, well designed....etc. I have also used the RX-A860 as an example.

I hope everyone would try not to be so sensitive in any discussions on this never ending topic on amp sounds.

I'm not sensitive. I was attacked plain simple because of my opinion and what I heard. I didn't attack anyone for what they heard or what Porge heard. All I said was don't tell me what I heard or didn't hear. Such a ridiculous discussion. There are a lot of smart asses on forums like this.

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[Andrein]

Wonder how speaker sensitivity changes depending on the frequency range? Guess it is changing in non linear way diferently in each of freq bands. Dont know much on this though. Also believe some freq are most important for one persone and diff for another. So you will never have the same perception from the same amp and speaker combination. Hence 'bias' thing is irrelevant.

 

[everettT]

Wonder how speaker sensitivity changes depending on the frequency range? Guess it is changing in non linear way diferently in each of freq bands. Dont know much on this though. Also believe some freq are most important for one persone and diff for another. So you will never have the same perception from the same amp and speaker combination. Hence 'bias' thing is irrelevant.

Of course impedance, sensitivity, phase , etc change over the spectrum. That's part of getting verified measurements. If one wants to understand how their speakers perform in room post purchase they should have a viable way to do measurements.

 

[PENG]

I'm not sensitive. I was attacked plain simple because of my opinion and what I heard. I didn't attack anyone for what they heard or what Porge heard. All I said was don't tell me what I heard or didn't hear. Such a ridiculous discussion. There are a lot of smart asses on forums like this.

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Okay so I must have missed a post or two.

 

[panteragstk]

Agree, but you are almost stating the obvious because most people here would not say all amps sound the same unconditionally. They typically would add certain qualifiers such as driven well within their limits, well designed....etc. I have also used the RX-A860 as an example.

I hope everyone would try not to be so sensitive in any discussions on this never ending topic on amp sounds.

Totally agree on stating the obvious. It just wasn't stated in this thread and I thought it worth pointing out in case anyone would benefit.