Loudspeaker Upgrade

[mudrummer99]

This is more or less a continuation of another thread I started in general A/V discussion. I have a couple options before me and a couple questions to go with it. First is I have the option to either buy a pair of front speakers and a center channel within the next month or so for about $1500 or wait about 6 months or so and spend about twice that around $3k or so. I'm not in sore need of new speakers, mine are acceptable atm but I would like to hear some people weigh in on this. Secondly I would like to ask for suggestions to add to my audition list for said speakers. I would like suggestions at both price points. The source will be an Oppo 981 and the receiver is a Yamaha HTR-5840 (oldish but has never disappointed me). I will be upgrading the receiver after the speakers. Thanks again for everyones help.

Mike

Edit: On my listening list already are Klipsch RF-82 and 83's and Paradigm Monitor 11's and Studio 100's at their respective price ranges

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I would skip the monitor series from Paradigm, the Studio's are awesome as are the sigs if you want to spend that kind of money.

I used to recommend a lot of different speakers but for 2008, I decided to keep it simple.

B&W
Paradigm
PSB
Dyna audio

Why would anyone need more?

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I dreamed of expensive speakers until I heard the Mirage Omni 150s. They sounded so freakin' incredible that I have ordered the 350s. If they are as awesome as I expect them to be based on the 150s, they will be the last speakers I ever buy.
Make sure you hear Mirages before committing to anything else.

 

[WmAx]

I dreamed of expensive speakers until I heard the Mirage Omni 150s. They sounded so freakin' incredible that I have ordered the 350s. If they are as awesome as I expect them to be based on the 150s, they will be the last speakers I ever buy.
Make sure you hear Mirages before committing to anything else.

How will you be setting them up? I can help with proper/optimal acoustical treatment and location placement for omnipolar speakers. This is a huge factor in SQ for such a speaker; considerably more so than a monopole unit due to the increased level of room interaction.

Another issue: I do presume the cabinet on this speaker will be substantially resonant. If you have any basic wood working skill, you know I will usually recommend modification - but this speaker has a curved cabinet and as such successful modification becomes questionable. But if you would make new cabinets(to my specification) you could increase SQ by a substantial degree.

Using stereo subwoofers and an optimal DSP processor such as Behringer DCX2496 would top off the combo to achieve the highest sound quality possible from that particular set-up.

-Chris

 

[Joe Schmoe]

How will you be setting them up? I can help with proper/optimal acoustical treatment and location placement for omnipolar speakers. This is a huge factor in SQ for such a speaker; considerably more so than a monopole unit due to the increased level of room interaction.

Another issue: I do presume the cabinet on this speaker will be substantially resonant. If you have any basic wood working skill, you know I will usually recommend modification - but this speaker has a curved cabinet and as such successful modification becomes questionable. But if you would make new cabinets(to my specification) you could increase SQ by a substantial degree.

Using stereo subwoofers and an optimal DSP processor such as Behringer DCX2496 would top off the combo to achieve the highest sound quality possible from that particular set-up.

-Chris

My room is 10' X 20', with my primary listening position centered on one of the short walls. The way I set up the 150s was 9' from the back wall (11' from the listening position) and 2' from the side walls (hence 6' apart) with minimal toe-in. At this point, I plan to set up the 350s the same way, and there are multiple factors preventing large changes. I have already ordered pyramidal foam panels to absorb/diffract treble at the first reflection points. The room has wall-to wall carpet and the back wall is completely covered with acoustic ceiling tile (no deposit back for me!)
The curvature is likely to significantly reduce resonances (as will the fact that I never listen at high volume.) The last thing I want to do with brand new speakers is disassemble them!
They arrive Tuesday. Full report after that.

 

[WmAx]

My room is 10' X 20', with my primary listening position centered on one of the short walls. The way I set up the 150s was 9' from the back wall (11' from the listening position) and 2' from the side walls (hence 6' apart) with minimal toe-in. At this point, I plan to set up the 350s the same way, and there are multiple factors preventing large changes. I have already ordered pyramidal foam panels to absorb/diffract treble at the first reflection points. The room has wall-to wall carpet and the back wall is completely covered with acoustic ceiling tile (no deposit back for me!)
The curvature is likely to significantly reduce resonances (as will the fact that I never listen at high volume.) The last thing I want to do with brand new speakers is disassemble them!
They arrive Tuesday. Full report after that.

With proper set up, absorption of the 1st reflection points has a substantially negative effect with a true omnipolar speaker system. However, you must also have a substantial degree of acoustical treatment to take care of general problems such as excessive room echo in the front of the room(but not at the 1st reflection points) as well as try to reduce inter-channel crosstalk of the speakers. Ideally, you want an omnipole about 4-5' from the front wall, and 1.5-2' from the side wall. Listening position should be anywhere from 6-9' away from each speaker to keep a favorable balance of direct sound vs. room ambient sound. Substantially exceeding these ranges will start to create an unfavorable balance. Using 1st reflection point absorbers on an omnipole and experiencing an increase in SQ is a strong sign that the existing set up and treatment is sub-optimal.

In practice, a curved speaker system has minimum benefit, as it is not actually effective against the inherent resonances. Just think of a small metal pipe. Extreme rigidity. Yet, it rings like a bell at it's inherent resonant frequency. Such design must be combined with other factors to be effective, such as a constrain layer with a high loss damping material between the layers, combined yet with a very dense bracing system.

As for acoustic ceiling tile covering the back of the room: this is not a very effective broadband absorption material, and you don't want to prevent reflections at the 1st rear reflection point(in an optimal omnipolar set up).

-Chris

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Using 1st reflection point absorbers on an omnipole and experiencing an increase in SQ is a strong sign that the existing set up and treatment is sub-optimal.

-Chris

I ordered the panels while I was still using monopoles. I guess I won't use them (only out $30.) The speakers cannot be moved farther from the walls, but they can be moved a few feet closer to the listening position (Mirage recommends 9' for 6' spacing). My integrated amp has active crosstalk cancellelation (Carver "Acoustic Holography"), though I have never used it.
Thanks.

 

[WmAx]

I ordered the panels while I was still using monopoles. I guess I won't use them (only out $30.) The speakers cannot be moved farther from the walls, but they can be moved a few feet closer to the listening position Mirage recommends 9' for 6' spacing). My integrated amp has active crosstalk cancellelation (Carver "Acoustic Holography"), though I have never used it.
Thanks.

I meant, move the speakers closer to the rear wall, as I believe you said you had a 9' spacing from the rear wall(?). 4-5' is the ideal target range, with 9' maximum distance from you and the speaker itself. 2' is fine for the side wall distance. As for crosstalk, I mean the acoustic crosstalk in the room(L speaker reflecting sound to R side of room, and angled reflection to center front of room reflecting back to other side in a complex reflection path). I find this crosstalk to substantially decrease the clarity and interfere with the imaging in a full range omnipolar speaker system. A diagram of your room and furniture from a top view with accurately marked sized/distances and features would be very helpful here.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

I dreamed of expensive speakers until I heard the Mirage Omni 150s. They sounded so freakin' incredible that I have ordered the 350s. If they are as awesome as I expect them to be based on the 150s, they will be the last speakers I ever buy.
Make sure you hear Mirages before committing to anything else.

Unfortunately, even if the omnipolar speakers are linear and with low cabinet resonances(not a common set of features to be found), the way a typical dealer has them set up will negatively effect the sound, thus preventing most people from hearing the benefit of an omnipolar system. Combine this with the difficult set-up and room acoustics needed to use an omnipolar to it's potential, and generally, omnipolars are not practical for most people unless they can dedicate/lay out a room around the speakers instead of the other way around.

-Chris

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Unfortunately, even if the omnipolar speakers are linear and with low cabinet resonances(not a common set of features to be found), the way a typical dealer has them set up will negatively effect the sound, thus preventing most people from hearing the benefit of an omnipolar system. Combine this with the difficult set-up and room acoustics needed to use an omnipolar to it's potential, and generally, omnipolars are not practical for most people unless they can dedicate/lay out a room around the speakers instead of the other way around.

-Chris

I think you are too concerned with "optimal" or "ideal" set up which is never going to be a possibility in my apartment. What I care about is what sounds excellent to me. This was very easy to achieve with the 150s and should be equally easy with the 350s as they are the same except for bass.

 

[3db]

This is more or less a continuation of another thread I started in general A/V discussion. I have a couple options before me and a couple questions to go with it. First is I have the option to either buy a pair of front speakers and a center channel within the next month or so for about $1500 or wait about 6 months or so and spend about twice that around $3k or so. I'm not in sore need of new speakers, mine are acceptable atm but I would like to hear some people weigh in on this. Secondly I would like to ask for suggestions to add to my audition list for said speakers. I would like suggestions at both price points. The source will be an Oppo 981 and the receiver is a Yamaha HTR-5840 (oldish but has never disappointed me). I will be upgrading the receiver after the speakers. Thanks again for everyones help.

Mike

Edit: On my listening list already are Klipsch RF-82 and 83's and Paradigm Monitor 11's and Studio 100's at their respective price ranges

Throw the PSB Image T65s on your audition list.

 

[mazersteven]

I think you are too concerned with "optimal" or "ideal" set up which is never going to be a possibility in my apartment. What I care about is what sounds excellent to me. This was very easy to achieve with the 150s and should be equally easy with the 350s as they are the same except for bass.

 

[mazersteven]

First is I have the option to either buy a pair of front speakers and a center channel within the next month or so for about $1500 or wait about 6 months or so and spend about twice that around $3k or so. I'm not in sore need of new speakers, mine are acceptable atm

I would audition speakers (as many as you can) during the next 6 months until your funds are ready. Nothing says you have to spend the whole $3K at that time. But at least you will have auditioned a bunch of speakers. Take notes, and bring your own material to audition (CD's & DVD's). Take your time, and have fun with it.

Paradigm
Bowers & Wilkins
PSB
Klipsch
Monitor Audio

Internet Only

AV123 (Rockets)
Ascend Acoustic (Sierra)
SVS (MTS)
Salk (SongTower)

 

[Joe Schmoe]

It did kind of end up that way.