loudspeaker placement suggestions for new room?

[mtbound10]

Hello to all my audioholic guru's out there,

I am about to start running my speaker cable in the walls for my new home theater which will be located in my basement. I am attaching a sketch of the proposed layout. The Tv as you will see is going to be kitty cornered and most likely suspended with a TV wall mount unit for articulation. Could you please give me some ideas on loudspeaker placement based on the configuration I have drawn up. The alternate location for the tv would be above the fireplace if necessary.

Currently running a 5.1 system and will be upgrading to 7.1 or 7.2 in the near future.

Speakers:
Axiom M80's or M60's (unsure due to size of the room whether the M80's would be my best selection)
Axiom QS8 or QS4 surrounds (rear or side depending on 5.1 or 7.1(2))
EMP ECA4 side surrounds
Yamaha RX-v863
Panasonic 50" plasma HD

Thanks in advance!

 

[jostenmeat]

THIS IS THE BASEMENT. What else is going to be in there, ping pong table? exercise equipment? If nothing else, make it a REAL theater.

Take those two couches, and put one on a riser. Forget the cabinetry up front, put it all in the back. Just buy an $85 URC remote system, and you can control it no problem. 35 ft HDMI cable is $40.

You can even go nuts, and build a false wall to hide the fireplace. IN ANY CASE, why wouldn't you go front projection?

Do not forget about treating the room. If this is 100% HT, I would even sacrifice on speaker choice if that's the only way to allow budget for treatments. JMO.

 

[fredk]

You are going to have a very hard time creating a good soundtage with that layout. Is the fireplace used or decorative?

Putting the TV above the fireplace would be a lot better than in the corner. That would give you a very symetric setup for a much better sound stage.

If you go with the corner setup, don't bother with 7.1. For the above fireplace configuration, use the QS speakers as side surrounds and use the direct radiating as rear surrounds.

As to the 60s vs 80s, either will play to very high volumes unless you live in a small mansion with a HUGE basement. The 80s will give you quite a bit more low end if you listen to music in two channel mode, and will give you a little more detail/clarity on the top end.

 

[agarwalro]

Can you put some dimensions in the pic.? It is tough to recommend alternatives without knowing the sizing. For instance, can you move the TV to the long side with the door (centered between door and corner) and have your seating on the opposite side?

That would leave the fireplace side open for a bar or lounge for the fireplace...

 

[jostenmeat]

Hello to all my audioholic guru's out there,

I am about to start running my speaker cable in the walls for my new home theater which will be located in my basement. I am attaching a sketch of the proposed layout. The Tv as you will see is going to be kitty cornered and most likely suspended with a TV wall mount unit for articulation. Could you please give me some ideas on loudspeaker placement based on the configuration I have drawn up. The alternate location for the tv would be above the fireplace if necessary.

Currently running a 5.1 system and will be upgrading to 7.1 or 7.2 in the near future.

OK, now that I got the dedicated Home Theater off my chest, I'll try to answer your questions. When 7.1, aim to have the sides at 90 degrees. The persons(s) sitting on the side wall will be scrooed, no way around that. For the rears, Id consider ceiling mounting, say 5ft-ish from the main listening spot. If you wall mount them waaaay in the back, they'll have to run very hot (which might also bother someone hanging out there).

If 5.1, you may or may not want a more obtuse angle than 90 degrees, so that some rear space is filled.

I may or may not think about running extra wire for possible height speakers, or width speakers. Check out the new Audyssey DSX for instance. (Monoprice speaker wire is so cheap, might as well even if the chances are very slim).

I'd position the mains by experimentation. One of the most common compromises that I see in my wanderings is having the mains too close to the front wall. Next could be too close to the sidewall. Sometimes a large screen makes that very difficult, as in my case, but with a 50" plasma, you should have plenty of room for experimentation.

If you are dead set on a plasma, I highly recommend three identical speakers on the same plane. This is the ideal soundstage. Perfect match, perfect panning, best dispersion. HTH.

 

[mtbound10]

Thanks for the help guys...

I attached the same plan with dimensions on it this time. The idea of a dedicated home theater would be nice. However I will need to use this as man-town and a living space. So I am trying to make things work the best I can with what I have available for space. The space itself is not huge by any means which I am guessing would limit my loss of performance due to limited speaker location options since the sound field of the QS8's and especially the M80's will be more than ample to fill the room. BUT, I know there is much more to it than that, which is why I am bringing in the big guns (you, and you and you and you...)

In short I am hoping to come up with the best possible solution to utilize the space as best that I can since my house is not big at all to begin with. This finished basement for instance will almost double the living space in my home.

I am planning also to build "cubby" holes into the wall space for possible speaker placements, book shelving, and cd/DVD storage. So I will be able to recess speakers for sides into the wall which does open up my options a bit I believe.

 

[Loren42]

Thanks for the help guys...

I attached the same plan with dimensions on it this time. The idea of a dedicated home theater would be nice. However I will need to use this as man-town and a living space. So I am trying to make things work the best I can with what I have available for space. The space itself is not huge by any means which I am guessing would limit my loss of performance due to limited speaker location options since the sound field of the QS8's and especially the M80's will be more than ample to fill the room. BUT, I know there is much more to it than that, which is why I am bringing in the big guns (you, and you and you and you...)

In short I am hoping to come up with the best possible solution to utilize the space as best that I can since my house is not big at all to begin with. This finished basement for instance will almost double the living space in my home.

I am planning also to build "cubby" holes into the wall space for possible speaker placements, book shelving, and cd/DVD storage. So I will be able to recess speakers for sides into the wall which does open up my options a bit I believe.

Here are my thoughts. It is not too easy to read your dimensions, but it looks like the room 18' 11" by 12' 7".

The first thing that struck me was the distance from the seating position to the screen. In your case it is 52", which is small for a design eye distance of 10 to 12 feet away.

Were you planning on moving the TV when you watch it and returning it to its corner when done?

The second issue that comes to mind is the position of the speakers relative to the TV. If you plan to relocate the TV each time, then you are fine, but if you offset the speakers from the viewing screen (or vica versa) then you will have an issue with where the sound appears and where the image appears. They won't match.

Why not go for a simple 5.1 system and move the components as follows?

You can add a sub in one of the corners if you want.

The rear speakers should ideally be 6" from the ceiling and about 2 feet above your head height when sitting. Someone recommended in-ceiling speakers and I think that is a good choice.

I would try to pull the sofa away from the wall a bit if you can, but some sound absorbent material (i.e., an Iranian Rug (Persia is long gone, you know)) hanging behind it may help some of the wall echos.

The advantage of my layout is that you can centrally locate the screen relative to the speakers and you have the long sofa available for the family and even the side sofa is still usable for viewing, too. Notice that the distance to the screen is better for viewing as well.

All the electronics can go next to the TV where you can aim a remote. The center channel should go either above or below the TV as close to the screen as possible.

The fireplace is its own entity and will not disturb your home theater when in use. And you can still enjoy just the fireplace for quiet times.

 

[fredk]

Loren42's layout is a good compromise, but will give you the most uneven bass because of boundry effects.

Don't put the QS speakers in cubby holes. That will compromise their performance because they have up and down firing drivers as well as the two that fire forward at 45 degrees.

 

[Loren42]

Loren42's layout is a good compromise, but will give you the most uneven bass because of boundry effects.

Don't put the QS speakers in cubby holes. That will compromise their performance because they have up and down firing drivers as well as the two that fire forward at 45 degrees.

Talk to me more about boundary effects with bass response.

 

[jostenmeat]

Agreed with fredk, you don't want to put your speakers in cubby holes. Not if you prefer accurate reproduction in any case. If the back wall is only 6ft or so from viewers, then I think that's a perfectly fine place to mount the rears (not side surrounds). If 5.1 only to begin with, I'd prefer that they were more to the sides than the rear, if that was manageable. I agree that 50" is small for 10-12'. Even with perfect 20/20 vision, you need to be at 8' just to begin enjoying some benefit of 1080p. At 10-12 at least you can enjoy 720. At over 13' ft, you don't even get enjoy any benefit of 720, and 480 is perfectly adequate.

Also, lengthwise setup is recommended for audio. The one thing I like about Loren's setup is the surround placement seems to be more ideal than what you attached. If doing any setup like that, I'd put sliders on the couch feet to firstly get away from any boundary (rear wall) and perhaps enjoying a better surround effect.

 

[mtbound10]

Here are my thoughts. It is not too easy to read your dimensions, but it looks like the room 18' 11" by 12' 7".

The first thing that struck me was the distance from the seating position to the screen. In your case it is 52", which is small for a design eye distance of 10 to 12 feet away.

Were you planning on moving the TV when you watch it and returning it to its corner when done?

The second issue that comes to mind is the position of the speakers relative to the TV. If you plan to relocate the TV each time, then you are fine, but if you offset the speakers from the viewing screen (or vica versa) then you will have an issue with where the sound appears and where the image appears. They won't match.

Why not go for a simple 5.1 system and move the components as follows?

You can add a sub in one of the corners if you want.

The rear speakers should ideally be 6" from the ceiling and about 2 feet above your head height when sitting. Someone recommended in-ceiling speakers and I think that is a good choice.

I would try to pull the sofa away from the wall a bit if you can, but some sound absorbent material (i.e., an Iranian Rug (Persia is long gone, you know)) hanging behind it may help some of the wall echos.

The advantage of my layout is that you can centrally locate the screen relative to the speakers and you have the long sofa available for the family and even the side sofa is still usable for viewing, too. Notice that the distance to the screen is better for viewing as well.

All the electronics can go next to the TV where you can aim a remote. The center channel should go either above or below the TV as close to the screen as possible.

The fireplace is its own entity and will not disturb your home theater when in use. And you can still enjoy just the fireplace for quiet times.

Nice perspective Loren,

I do not oppose the idea of moving the tv over. You mentioned 52" for the tv to the sitting position as I have it laid out however... it would more than likely be over or around ten feet if it is kitty cornered and the couches stayed where they are. I know my dimensions were a little difficult to read sorry bout that.

As for the TV, I was planning on mounting it to a wall unit so i can cantilever the tv out from the corner and direct it towards the couches... otherwise if I have it in the corner I would need to kitty corner it and it would take up to much space. This way I would be able to tuck it back in if I was not using it and not take up so much space with a corner cabinet and counter. So yes, to answer your question I would be moving the tv around. Right now with my setup upstairs the tv is located roughly 8 feet which does not seem to be an issue for me... are you saying that the closer the better or farther the better?

As for speaker location... I could place one speaker to the right of the tv and one speaker to the left closer to the fire place. With the surrounds, I mentioned a cubby and that would only be for the EMP compacts that I have which only have front firing drivers... this would not impact the directional value of the speaker since the would not be sitting to deep inside the wall nor do they have bottom firing or top firing speakers. If I was to creat a 7.1 system I would use these speakers in that scenario. Othewise I am looking more towards a 5.1 which due to the size of the room and the lacking number of 7.1 formatted tv, dvd or otherwise 5.1 seems to be the way to go. The surrounds on the other hand (QS8's) might be a problem. You don't think the QS8's will be effective on the back wall? my only concern with placing them behind the sofa would be the position relative to seating.

Do you think some sound absorbing insulation would be a good idea in this room?

Also, am I wrong to think with the sound field that the M80's would create that speaker location would be less important... in other words with a smaller room and a relatively low ceiling height wouldn't these speakers fill more space regardless of their location?

As for the fireplace it will probably not be used so it is a non-issue.

And as for the built in cabinets on each side of the fireplace... those come second to space for speakers if needed...

 

[Loren42]

Agreed with fredk, you don't want to put your speakers in cubby holes. Not if you prefer accurate reproduction in any case. If the back wall is only 6ft or so from viewers, then I think that's a perfectly fine place to mount the rears (not side surrounds). If 5.1 only to begin with, I'd prefer that they were more to the sides than the rear, if that was manageable. I agree that 50" is small for 10-12'. Even with perfect 20/20 vision, you need to be at 8' just to begin enjoying some benefit of 1080p. At 10-12 at least you can enjoy 720. At over 13' ft, you don't even get enjoy any benefit of 720, and 480 is perfectly adequate.

Also, lengthwise setup is recommended for audio. The one thing I like about Loren's setup is the surround placement seems to be more ideal than what you attached. If doing any setup like that, I'd put sliders on the couch feet to firstly get away from any boundary (rear wall) and perhaps enjoying a better surround effect.

I was thinking that he could also add a nice set of bookshelf speakers either side of the fireplace if he wanted to listen to stereo only and then switch to the 5.1 setup for video.

In the end it will depend on what are his preferences for the room. Obviously, he has stated that it can't be 100% dedicated to home theater, so there are a factors to compromise with and some factors may be more important to him than others.

It is hard to peer through someone else's eyes when you know so little about what is critical and what is not so important to their needs.

I know we tend to look at the problem critically from an audio perspective since that is dear to our hearts, but we don't know the original poster's point of view as well as we do our own.

 

[Loren42]

Nice perspective Loren,

I do not oppose the idea of moving the tv over. You mentioned 52" for the tv to the sitting position as I have it laid out however... it would more than likely be over or around ten feet if it is kitty cornered and the couches stayed where they are. I know my dimensions were a little difficult to read sorry bout that.

As for the TV, I was planning on mounting it to a wall unit so i can cantilever the tv out from the corner and direct it towards the couches... otherwise if I have it in the corner I would need to kitty corner it and it would take up to much space. This way I would be able to tuck it back in if I was not using it and not take up so much space with a corner cabinet and counter. So yes, to answer your question I would be moving the tv around. Right now with my setup upstairs the tv is located roughly 8 feet which does not seem to be an issue for me... are you saying that the closer the better or farther the better?

As for speaker location... I could place one speaker to the right of the tv and one speaker to the left closer to the fire place. With the surrounds, I mentioned a cubby and that would only be for the EMP compacts that I have which only have front firing drivers... this would not impact the directional value of the speaker since the would not be sitting to deep inside the wall nor do they have bottom firing or top firing speakers. If I was to creat a 7.1 system I would use these speakers in that scenario. Othewise I am looking more towards a 5.1 which due to the size of the room and the lacking number of 7.1 formatted tv, dvd or otherwise 5.1 seems to be the way to go. The surrounds on the other hand (QS8's) might be a problem. You don't think the QS8's will be effective on the back wall? my only concern with placing them behind the sofa would be the position relative to seating.

Do you think some sound absorbing insulation would be a good idea in this room?

Also, am I wrong to think with the sound field that the M80's would create that speaker location would be less important... in other words with a smaller room and a relatively low ceiling height wouldn't these speakers fill more space regardless of their location?

As for the fireplace it will probably not be used so it is a non-issue.

And as for the built in cabinets on each side of the fireplace... those come second to space for speakers if needed...

I am not knowledgeable with the particular speakers you are selecting, so I can't comment there. I selected the layout based on how I thought you could retain the overall setting of the room and maximize the surround sound effect.

Going 7.1 is probably a wasted effort in that room unless you are determined to put home theater first on the priority for that room. In other words, if your intent is to make the best home theater system and to hell with the fireplace, then 7.1 is doable.

However, your proposed location for the TV is a severe compromise in itself. A 7.1 system simply isn't a good fit. Heck, even a 5.1 system isn't a good fit with the TV in the corner.

As I stated originally, if you need a dual purpose room (like I do) I would place the components in the position I cited and you will have a pretty good compromise.

It's your house and your room and whatever you decide to do is okay, so I don't want to make you feel pressured. You have your own set of priorities and there is nothing wrong with that. I just want you to understand that the configuration you are leaning towards probably would be a waste to try to go 7.1. You simply won't realize the benefit you are paying for.

As far as room treatments go, that depends on the final arrangement, what you have on the walls, floor and ceiling.

There will only be so much you can do. You don't want it to be too dead as much as you don't want it too live.

Yes, you are wrong to think that speaker placement is not that important. Speaker placement relative to walls and other objects will make a big difference. I would start looking for books on room acoustics to learn more. The room itself and speaker placement in that room is probably the single most important factor in a good sound system and is often neglected. No speaker, no matter how good, can overcome a bad room setting.

Worse yet, a bad room will have very inconsistent sound. Move your head a few inches and things change dramatically. No electronics can fix that problem and make a bad room good.

However, since this is a multi-purpose room you won't have the option of moving speakers two to four feet away from walls to get optimum performance. So, everything is a compromise, and there is probably no sense in buying the top of the line gear if you can't support the room it needs.

Just consider your priorities and needs and list them on a paper in order of importance.

 

[fredk]

Also, am I wrong to think with the sound field that the M80's would create that speaker location would be less important... in other words with a smaller room and a relatively low ceiling height wouldn't these speakers fill more space regardless of their location?

They would certainly fill the room, but its how they fill the room thats important. One of the really nice things about this site is that it has a really good learning library. Go to the AV University section of this site and read some of the articles on room acoustics to get a better idea of how sound interacts with a room. It will help you a lot in laying out your room properly.

As I wrote earlier, your best bet is to set up the TV above the fireplace as this will give a you good symetric layout for your speakers.

 

[mtbound10]

So I am leaning towards trying the fireplace mount for the tv which will let me place the tower speakers somewhere along the wall on the side of the tv and let me place the center chanel inside the fireplace (if this will not create an acoustical nightmare). But Lorens plan is still in there too with the tv next to the door. The only thing I do not like about that plan is the distance from the wall to the sitting area with the speakers more than anything.

Ideally if I can find a happy medium with the speakers on each side of the fireplace and a decent location for the surrounds on the back wall I am going to just stay with a 5.1 system. Given the arrangement and the size of this room I am obviously going to have to make some sacrifices I just wanted to find out which sacrifices would be less detrimental to the sound/vision quality so I can base my decision against that.

 

[jostenmeat]

It is hard to peer through someone else's eyes when you know so little about what is critical and what is not so important to their needs.

I know we tend to look at the problem critically from an audio perspective since that is dear to our hearts, but we don't know the original poster's point of view as well as we do our own.

Which is why I always try to think in terms of the ideal. Lots of posters don't know a whole lot about acoustics, and furthermore, don't share all of the necessary information to begin with. If you select some compromises for them, without explaining what they are, you are doing them a disservice.

Explain the compromises, then have them choose their evils. You can't explain the compromises without the ideal as a baseline. I wish people explained to me what I now explain to others, when I first started a couple of years ago. See below.

Given the arrangement and the size of this room I am obviously going to have to make some sacrifices I just wanted to find out which sacrifices would be less detrimental to the sound/vision quality so I can base my decision against that.

mtbound10, can you please explain why you do not consider, at least explicitly here, the identical three front speakers, upright, on the same plane? You simply think it looks funny? It would be a small dream of mine to be able to do that. Heck, it's not even a small dream, I'd say medium-large.

I bet the center speaker in the fireplace will work, but it's definitely less than ideal. Even if it's not the identical speaker, vertically arrayed drivers are best. If you are dead set on a horizontal speaker, for whatever reason, try to avoid the horizontal mtm if you can. That may or may not be difficult depending on budget. For horizontal speakers, you can try coaxial or WTMW for instance. This will help reduce lobing effects to a lower passband where we are less sensitive (assuming the coincidental drivers are flanked by redundant bass drivers to begin with).

 

[mtbound10]

"mtbound10, can you please explain why you do not consider, at least explicitly here, the identical three front speakers, upright, on the same plane? You simply think it looks funny? It would be a small dream of mine to be able to do that. Heck, it's not even a small dream, I'd say medium-large. "

I am not planning on mixing and matching front speakers, I never was. My intention all along was to upgrade my current speaker set which is comprised of all Compact speakers. I want a larger speaker that works well on 2 channel as well as H/T. As for the center channel I know that I will not be able to mix and match with this since the to towers (M80 or M60) will be completely mismatched by anything less.

As for "looking funny" I dont know where this is coming from. I never had any intention of sacrificing the architectural aspect of the room to lend itself soley to a home theater. My intent has always been to keep the room as practical as possible while losing the least amount of acoustical quality possible. Which is why I started looking for suggestions to begin with. The room itself is far from ideal in terms of setup, no matter where the tv and speakers are placed, I knew that from the very beginning.

 

[jostenmeat]

If I understand your post correctly, then you are going to have three identical speakers on the same plane. Well done. I'm sorry that it was not clear to me before; there wasn't anything explicitly said that made this abundantly clear to me. I'm glad that is cleared up.

I think that ideal front soundstage has such a HUGE impact on AQ that you can afford many other compromises, and yet still have an HT to die for. Really.

 

[mtbound10]

I do not know if we are talking about the same thing here... You mentioned having three identical speakers on the same plane. If you mean matching brand name and quality then yes that will be the case. I will be using two M80's or M60's for front channel and for the center channel a VP150v2 or 100v2. On the other hand if you meant taking three M60's and using one as a center channel, that will not be happening.