Looking for 5.1 set for $1,500

[FirstReflection]

I don't mean to highjack this thread, but I'm looking to buy my first sub. I had planned on getting a HSU VTF 2 mk3, but seeing the positive reviews of Emotiva subs has me doubting my choice.

A search for the new x-ref brought me here.

Someone here mentioned that Emotiva would be a bad choice for movies. Would that still be the case with the 600w amp in the new x-ref? I know marketing specs lie, but that is more than double the power of the HSU sub I had picked out. The HSU is bigger and ported, but I've heard it can produce port noise.

I'm looking to spend around $500, but will be streching to ~$600 for both of these.

I will be using it for 90% TV/Movies and 10% Music. The room is roughly 15x12x9 with smaller open doorway openings to 12x9 room and another small door wall leading to a hall.

I could get behind an HSU purchase or an Emotiva sub purchase - they both make very good subwoofers! But if you have around $500 to spend on a sub for both music and movies, I really think the best offering out there right now is the Rythmik FV12. The FV12 plays a little bit lower than either the HSU VTF-2 MK3 or the Emotiva subs - but that small extra bit of extension makes the difference in movies! With most subs at this price, you kind of have to choose between getting that deep extension and keeping tight, clean performance for music. The Emotiva subs give up a bit of extension in order to keep extremely clean performance for music. The HSU VTF-2 MK3 sort of splits the difference. And the $500-ish Elemental Designs (eD) subs tend to favor deep extension and high output at the expense of a bit of tightness and transient response. But the Rythmik FV12 manages to hit deep, play loud AND play with very tight, clean transient response. To me, that makes it the best choice for a system where you want to listen to both movies and music and it "moves the goal posts" at the $500 price point, IMO.

 

[shadyJ]

I really doubt the FV12 can play as deep as the VTF2, the port volume and enclosure size are not as large.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I really doubt the FV12 can play as deep as the VTF2, the port volume and enclosure size are not as large.

You mean other way around - as FV12 has bigger box and driver

 

[jonnythan]

You mean other way around - as FV12 has bigger box and driver

They both have a 12" driver.

The FV12 has a box that's externally 6688 cubic inches. The VTF-2 is 7590 cubic inches.

So, no, he doesn't

 

[upallnight312]

They both have a 12" driver.

The FV12 has a box that's externally 6688 cubic inches. The VTF-2 is 7590 cubic inches.

So, no, he doesn't

The Emotiva x-ref 12 is tiny by comparison. 3542 cubic inches

WAF never really entered into my thought process, until you pointed out the size difference.

Eh, I don't care that much. I still want the best performance I can buy, regardless of size.

 

[ObsceneJesster]

In regards to modern day subwoofers, every year, company's are defying the logic of bigger drivers equals bigger bass. Any $500 SUB you go with is going to have to sacrifice one thing for another in order to keep the price down. Some sacrifice in the amp and crossover while others sacrifice the materials used to build the enclosure and cone.

The new X-ref Emotiva SUBS are going to dig deeper and play louder while still being accurate. When company's upgrade their products, they usually don't downgrade their performance. Unlike other company's subwoofer manufacturers, Emotiva makes their own amps and they make a pretty good one at that. I would venture to say, after the reviews of the X-Ref's comes out, some of them are going to say that you do not find amps and crossovers of this quality in subwoofers at this price range.

 

[jonnythan]

Just because they'll be better than what they're replacing doesn't mean they'll be better than the competition. We'll see what the FR plots and power compression graphs look like once someone does a good review.

 

[upallnight312]

Just because they'll be better than what they're replacing doesn't mean they'll be better than the competition. We'll see what the FR plots and power compression graphs look like once someone does a good review.

And once all that information comes out, they will no longer offer the introductory pricing, and I will have to wait for another sale that could be 6 months away. The VTF2 seem to go on sale a few times a year, I have no idea about the Rythmic and I know Emotiva has a couple sales a year, but I don't know if they will offer them at this price again.

Right now they are all in the same ball park.

Grammar Rob had me leaning towards the Rythmic, until I realized how small the Emotiva is by comparison. Then again, I've always heard good things about HSU. I know they are all relatively good subs, I'm stumped right now. I'm probably going to order in the next week. Maybe someone will have measurements on the x-ref 12 by then.

 

[sholling]

In regards to modern day subwoofers, every year, company's are defying the logic of bigger drivers equals bigger bass. Any $500 SUB you go with is going to have to sacrifice one thing for another in order to keep the price down. Some sacrifice in the amp and crossover while others sacrifice the materials used to build the enclosure and cone.

By simply switching to a ported design you can reduce the amount of amplifier power required and put that into better drivers while playing deeper than a too small sealed sub. There is also, as they used to say in drag racing, no substitute for cubic inches. Cubic inches in the enclosure and cubic inches from the combination of driver diameter and excursion.

The new X-ref Emotiva SUBS are going to dig deeper and play louder while still being accurate.

Dig deeper and play louder than what? The Ultra 12? Maybe a bit but it doesn't have all that much more power and if it's using more internal equalization to extend the bass to be a bit less anemic below 30hz then that equalization is gong to suck up a bunch of amplifier power. Personally I'd much rather have the Rythmik FV12.

 

[upallnight312]

By simply switching to a ported design you can reduce the amount of amplifier power required and put that into better drivers while playing deeper than a too small sealed sub. There is also, as they used to say in drag racing, no substitute for cubic inches. Cubic inches in the enclosure and cubic inches from the combination of driver diameter and excursion.


Dig deeper and play louder than what? The Ultra 12? Maybe a bit but it doesn't have all that much more power and if it's using more internal equalization to extend the bass to be a bit less anemic below 30hz then that equalization is gong to suck up a bunch of amplifier power. Personally I'd much rather have the Rythmik FV12.

So you own HSU, SVS and Emotiva subs, but in my case you would recommend Rythmik?

 

[ObsceneJesster]

By simply switching to a ported design you can reduce the amount of amplifier power required and put that into better drivers while playing deeper than a too small sealed sub. There is also, as they used to say in drag racing, no substitute for cubic inches. Cubic inches in the enclosure and cubic inches from the combination of driver diameter and excursion.


Dig deeper and play louder than what? The Ultra 12? Maybe a bit but it doesn't have all that much more power and if it's using more internal equalization to extend the bass to be a bit less anemic below 30hz then that equalization is gong to suck up a bunch of amplifier power. Personally I'd much rather have the Rythmik FV12.

By switching to a ported design you can also lose tightness and accuracy. Like I said in a earlier post. When it comes to sub woofers, manufacturers need to make trade-offs. In the $500 price range, there is no such thing as the perfect sub.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

By switching to a ported design you can also lose tightness and accuracy. Like I said in a earlier post. When it comes to sub woofers, manufacturers need to make trade-offs. In the $500 price range, there is no such thing as the perfect sub.

Ah, but that is where the Direct Servo technology comes in.

From Rythmik Audio regarding Direct Servo:
A sensing coil provides immediate feedback to ensure the cone precisely follows the input signal. The result is very tight, accurate and dynamic bass.

Thus, even in the case of ported design, a Rythmik sub can still have a Q value of 0.5, which is tight, tight bass.

 

[sholling]

By switching to a ported design you can also lose tightness and accuracy.

Compression of very low frequency output by sealed subs is just another form of distortion and another form of inaccuracy. I happen to like sealed subs for music and dislike them for movies because once again they have trade-offs. A sealed sub with a natural ~45hz roll-off flogged into a semblance of linear output down to its lower limits by internal equalization circuits and shear amplifier power does not eliminate compression.

Like I said in a earlier post. When it comes to sub woofers, manufacturers need to make trade-offs. In the $500 price range, there is no such thing as the perfect sub.

Here we agree and I'll go further and say that there is no such thing as a perfect at $1000 sub either. Each subwoofer design has tradeoffs - size vs performance, extension vs output, a bit more tightness vs a lot more impact etc. It just a matter of which tradeoffs are most important to the buyer and why we have more than one brand to choose from. If we all had the same taste the only variation would be output levels to match the room. But in the end there are a couple of pretty good subs in the $500 range.

Thus, even in the case of ported design, a Rythmik sub can still have a Q value of 0.5, which is tight, tight bass.

Exactly. Not that a Hsu VTF-2 could even vaguely be considered sloppy but I'd go with the Rythmik.

 

[Phrank]

Hsu vtf-2 MK3

I have had this sub for at least 3-4 years and it is absolutely incredible. I have a 20X20 8 ft ceiling room and I can't even begin to scrape the surface of its power. Music and movies are stunning. I'm running 6.1 with my other speakers being Infinitys.

It sits next to my garage door and the family is constantly putting crap on top of it, drinks, bags, keys, etc. and the finish has been bulletproof so far.

Of all the electronics purchases I have ever made I would rank this subwoofer among the top 10 in terms of overall satisfaction. I absolutely love it.

 

[yveletnik]

Changes to plan

Just wanted to reopen an old topic. Went for some auditions and dragged the better half alone too. After lots of fighting I was almost ready to settle for a pair of bookshelves to save my marriage.

My test CD consist of following:
(Eagles) Hotel California
(AC/DC) Hell Bells
(Red Hot Chilly Pepers) The Adventures of Rain Dance Maggie
(Santana) Europa
(Nirvana) The man who sold the world
(Pink Floyd) Comfortably numb
(Rainbow)The temple of the king
(Metallica)Master of puppets


Martin Logan Sources ($900/pair used) were on top of my list and I expected it to be the best speaker money can buy, so we went to Best Buy
1. ML (theos i think what they had on display):
Eagles Hotel California sounded really nice, I was soooo happy but when i got to rock (Red Hots, Metallica) the sound just started falling apart, highs hurt my ears, bass was just jumping all over the place. I felt like a kid that had his candy taken away.
2. B&W 684 ($1,100/pair at BB) worse sound on Hotel California but reasonably good on the rock music. Red Hots bass just shook the speakers like crazy, kinda sloppy boomy bass. Switched to 685 bookshelves in the middle of a song and in that moment wife sad that I can have the towers and she don't want the bookshelves, thanks to super boxy sound of those bookshelves the fight is won
3. B&W CM9 sounded defiantly better, but 3k/pair is out my league

So with Martin Logan of the list and 684 as a possible fit we went to a local NHT dealer (Edge Home Entertainment in Chicago area, very nice sales guy spent an hour on my noob questions and auditions).
1. Classic 3 made me WOW for a bookshelf connected to a Peachtree Audio Decco2 with 40w per channel, it didnt go deep in base or playd loud but I could see the band on the stage when I closed my eyes. It didnt shake playing Red Hots bass part maybe because it just does not go that low in frequency.
2. Absolute tower sounded better than classic 3 but not by much. Sound was really "pollite" not sure if it's even a term, pretty neutral. No base, but that's why I'm getting the sub, right? Mid base was really nice, but if I could define base as 'boom', 'punch' and 'flap' with punch being the best I heard more of the 'flap' where I wanted a 'punch'.
3. Didn't want to listen to Classic 4 because I thought it's a classic 3 on top of a 10" passive sub, or is it? Now I kinda feel sorry I didn't give those a chance. but 6ohms and 250W requirement just scares me.

All speakers played was without sub so maybe comparison is not really fair.
So far NHT Absolute tower is a winner, but it left me wanting more, maybe just because it looks too small or I dint play it loud enough.

So with my hands untied in WAF department and now budget of $800 - $1200 for a front pair (those will define the rest). I'm debating staying with Absolute Tower ($675/pair) or going for KEF Q700 ($1K/pair, maybe less if I hustle around) or Q900 for $1,100 half used.
having troubles finding a dealer with KEF Q series on display, so will have to rely on research.

So the question is how does Absolute tower compare to q700 and q900. Could I get away without using a sub-woofer if I go with q900?, i like my pants shaking from bass but hate a loose, boomy bass or humming sound coming from speakers (which some people claim KEF does).

hope there is an easy answer like NHT kicks Q series *** or the other way around. or is there a better speaker for a $1,000/pair, can be open boxed...

any input is welcome...
thanks

 

[sholling]

So with my hands untied in WAF department and now budget of $800 - $1200 for a front pair (those will define the rest). I'm debating staying with Absolute Tower ($675/pair) or going for KEF Q700 ($1K/pair, maybe less if I hustle around) or Q900 for $1,100 half used.
having troubles finding a dealer with KEF Q series on display, so will have to rely on research.

With that budget bump you could go with a pair of Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 bookshelves or perhaps the (off-menu) upgraded NrT version. There is a 30 day home trial. It's a pretty darn good speaker and beautiful. I have three of them in my bedroom and love them. Review

 

[MacNThorens]

Klipsch G-16 Home theater:
"h t t p : / / w w w. k l i p s c h . c o m/gallery-g-16-home-theater"
No reviews on the net whatsoever!!! It cost the same as RF-52 system will it sound the same? Will flat panel be an equal in that price category? White option and flat design will sure make my wife happy.

Kef T205:
"h t t p : / / w w w . k e f . c o m/us/surroundsound/t-series/t205"
That system got whole bunch of awards, some reviews even say that it sounds like a $20,000 set of speakers. I’m having troubles finding a dealer that have those in showroom in Chicago area.

So I guess the question is for the 1,500 set of speakers does it make sense to go with tower or buy the flat panels? On one hand I always thought that you need to have a big box to make a good sound, but times change…
Or is there a better solution for my price?
Any input appreciated

Hi all! I am new here, I just joined today and I am glad I found this site and more importantly this thread. I am in the same situation but a bit different. I have been into A/V for for many years.....I am no youngster anymore. I have had many different set-ups over the years but I am downsizing now and we have just relocated to a new area and we are in an apartment. The room that I am working on is approx 16 X 16 as a living/family room. I have gotten away from my separates and now have a pretty new Pioneer Elite VSX-33, Panasonic TC-P60GT30 Plasma, a Sony PS3, Paradigm Phantoms (F), CC100 (C) ?, PS-1000 Sub (the Paradigms will probably sell or I may keep for the garage) and my Thorens TD 110 Belt drive TT (original owner, Sell also), getting new turntable. Anyway I wanted to give you an idea of what I have to deal with. I want a system like "yveletnik" listed above but I want everything on the walls now. No more floor standers or B/S speakers. I am interested in the Klipsch Gallery G-16 5.1, KEF T305 or the GoldenEar SuperCimema 50. These seem to offer what will give me rewarding sound and imaging for both Movies and Stereo and compliment the room set-up. I realize I will be giving up a bit but I do not blast music anymore (although I do have quite an extensive album collection), and I no longer want to be confined to one spot in the room to be at the perfect listening position. If you have any input on these systems I would appreciate hearing your views. Thanks for any advise that you can give and its good to be hear

Oops......forgot to add that I have seen these systems from about $1250 - $2200, which is in my range...I know its wide!

 

[sholling]

Hi all! I am new here, I just joined today and I am glad I found this site and more importantly this thread. I am in the same situation but a bit different.

You'll probably get a better response if you start a new thread. This one was been beaten to death.