It just twists your... argh!

killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Boy is this one for the steam vent. Fuses are popping. Never has there been a more appropriate story.

This friend of mine who is in a kind of a similar situation like me; not having a lot of money, but really in love with music and trying to get as “much” sound as humanly possible for as little money (aren’t we all or at least most of us).

If there’s one thing I learned during my years here at audioholics it would be that acoustics are very complex and demanding. Reproducing recorded sound accurately is simply not at all easy in this atmosphere of ours and cubicles we live in.

This is why I would never be so hubris to throw advices at people like it’s nothing. Even when I know I’m right, I don’t necessarily think I’m right “for someone else”. I may think it’s only natural to seek as accurate reproduction as possible, but someone might actually enjoy his equipment adding something he likes to the overall sound. So… I tread carefully. (funniest thing, my friend is not among those)

My friend has a 2.0 stereo system. Old fashioned transistor NAD amp and a couple of B&W DM 302’s (a rather old pair but working neatly) in a room between small and medium by audioholics’ standards as published in several articles. He says he is not into 2.1 systems and that’s OK, he doesn’t like the idea, he doesn’t like it. I DID present it to him. I also told him that although NAD is a very decent company and responsible for some very useful patents, these laurels can’t compensate the 2x35W into 8Ohm fact and that power is not there just to create a lot of noise, but also to make speakers work better even with medium volumes. (Sensitivity is 91 though, which is higher than average bookshelf)
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In short; I told him a lot without ever saying: look my meat is the biggest and you should listen to me and only me! And what do I like? I like exotic amp brands so you should get one!

In comes this other prick (I don’t know the guy) and tells him: your sound stage is not quite clear; you should get better cables and a DAC. Also, you should buy a better amp (with this I actually agree to a level – although he doesn’t need better amp, but more power of decent quality could be useful and it COULD be useful precisely with clearer stereo imaging, so it could as well be a stronger NAD).

Now my friend is considering it. It is soooo ungrateful!! Not on his part, but the whole situation. You try and you try…

Incidentally, the prick has floorstanding speakers with (read it) 4 (four) bass drivers and an amp that is 2.5 times stronger than my friends, which COULD :D:D (pardon my ignorance if I’m wrong (that was sarcastic)) explain the “bigger and better” sound that my friend heard and liked and despite these obvious reasons, he goes to my friends house and when he hears his rig, he says: hmmm… yeeees, cables and a DAC. Prick.
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Of course, I don’t control other peoples lives, my friend will do what he wants. Maybe he’s overdue for a “personal experience” lesson. I don’t know. BTW my friend is a great statistics expert and ruling out variables that have no impact are child’s game for him, he also isn't smitten by expensive cables, but as soon as one finds himself in an unknown field, it seems that “big talk”, “loud mouth”, “bald claims” simply leave an impression of certainty. On the other hand, being careful or modest makes you look uncertain in the end. Are we by nature prone to be suckers whenever we face something we don’t know much about? (not ruling myself out)
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Sometimes I tell people to just do their best and we'll fix it later. :D

Everybody knows that silver speaker wire is best for that clear sound stage. :rolleyes:
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
@killdozzer So friend with bookshelf speakers who refuses to fill in the low end with a subwoofer hears towers with a half dozen more drivers and inherently extended bass range and thinks, "Hey, I need a DAC and snake oil!"

Show your friend this: Do you need a DAC?

And this:
We gathered up a 5 of our audio buddies. We took my "old" Martin Logan SL-3 (not a bad speaker for accurate noise making) and hooked them up with Monster 1000 speaker cables (decent cables according to the audio press). We also rigged up 14 gauge, oxygen free Belden stranded copper wire with a simple PVC jacket. Both were 2 meters long. They were connected to an ABX switch box allowing blind fold testing. Volume levels were set at 75 Db at 1000K Hz. A high quality recording of smooth, trio, easy listening jazz was played (Piano, drums, bass). None of us had heard this group or CD before, therefore eliminating biases. The music was played. Of the 5 blind folded, only 2 guessed correctly which was the monster cable. (I was not one of them). This was done 7 times in a row! Keeping us blind folded, my brother switched out the Belden wire (are you ready for this) with simple coat hanger wire! Unknown to me and our 12 audiophile buddies, prior to the ABX blind test, he took apart four coat hangers, reconnectd them and twisted them into a pair of speaker cables. Connections were soldered. He stashed them in a closet within the testing room so we were not privy to what he was up to. This made for a pair of 2 meter cables, the exact length of the other wires. The test was conducted. After 5 tests, none could determine which was the Monster 1000 cable or the coat hanger wire. Further, when music was played through the coat hanger wire, we were asked if what we heard sounded good to us. All agreed that what was heard sounded excellent, however, when A-B tests occured, it was impossible to determine which sounded best the majority of the time and which wire was in use. Needless to say, after the blind folds came off and we saw what my brother did, we learned he was right...most of what manufactures have to say about their products is pure hype. It seems the more they charge, the more hyped it is.
Then remind him that good sound comes from good speakers. If he's displeased with his sound, he probably needs different speakers (although a beefier amp couldn't hurt if his displeasure is only evident at high volumes). If he's pleased with all except the bass, then tell him he's a dumb shit and needs a subwoofer whether he wants one or not. If he wants something with better imaging and low end, he could build a tried-and-true DIY design (maybe pair of Solstice MLTLs?)
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I would kindly tell my friend that mr bigmouth is full of Sh.., and explain why his rig did sound good and don't waste his money, but better allocate it to something more useful like better speakers/amp. Speakers will provide soundstage and imaging. Not cables.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Yup, give it one more try. Kindly but firmly inform him that he is headed down a path of mistakes and wasted $. If he insists on proceeding after that, then he will have to learn the lessons for himself, you did your part.

Hey, you can also get some first hand experience on his system on what not to do.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Don't tell your friend to do anything. The other person has their ear. Honestly better speakers are needed. If the room isn't large and the listening distance isn't way off 35 watts is going to do a lot with some efficient speakers.

If you want to have some fun, find out what cables he purchased, find the ones that are a price tier or two above.

Tell him the sound stage STILL sounds 'veiled' and 'smeared' and that the Pace, Rythm, and Timing(PRAT) are 'off' and that he needs to upgrade to the ones costing 3 times as much. And then DROP the matter. It will drive impressionable minds bonkers.
 
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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
@rojo - Thanks for the link, I read that and used some of it in my conversations with him (and thanks for the quote with the blind test).

I'm not about to start defending his actions, but it is a bit more complicated. He doesn't expect to achieve the sound of the other guy's system, but he seems to be taking the advice under the impression of his system's performance. Something more along this line of thought: "he did set up his system very good, he might at least tell what I could tweak for slight improvements".

That was the exact point of my post; you can be ready for 60 types of snake oil, but there's always the 61st.

It's the little things, the other guy said; surely, cables are not all that important (which is much different from "not important at all given they satisfy the minimum") and you DO have decent cables, it's just that they are very old and probably have oxidation (even this I wouldn't accept, you can just peal another inch of insulation until you get to the shiny bit and reconnect them). My friend knows cables are not something to waste money on, BUT if oxidation started to weaken the connection... And then why not go for the ones that are OFC... And then the very cheap ones are probably lying that they are OFC and so on. It's a weak spot in anyone who is into some new field.

@slipperybidness - But of course. I didn't say I'm about to give up. He is my friend, I don't give up on friends that easily, but I'm not throwing myself under his car to stop him from going to the shop.:D

@William Lemmerhirt - It is much easier to make such claims about salesmen, you have every right to treat them as someone only after your money. This is the problem with convictions; the other guy doesn't have to be full of poop (well he is, he doesn't have to know it). If he honestly believes the stuff he gobbled up, he might operate under the conviction that he is giving the best possible advice and he himself doesn't profit from it at all. When I start trashing the other guy (as he should be trashed) he looks good and I look bad.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
@rojo -

@William Lemmerhirt - It is much easier to make such claims about salesmen, you have every right to treat them as someone only after your money. This is the problem with convictions; the other guy doesn't have to be full of poop (well he is, he doesn't have to know it). If he honestly believes the stuff he gobbled up, he might operate under the conviction that he is giving the best possible advice and he himself doesn't profit from it at all. When I start trashing the other guy (as he should be trashed) he looks good and I look bad.
Understood. It sounds like your friend believes his system is good for what it is, and set up well. Only considering upgrades since it was a suggestion vs not being satisfied on his own. Those are tougher sells than a guy who's asking for help, and since the only thing that's peaked his interest is the misguided cable upgrade, maybe he needs to learn this one on his own. Unless of course he's going after some 100 dollar per foot nonsense. Suggest some blue jeans cable and call 'er good I guess.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
First, an "old fashioned NAD transistor amp" doesn't exist. The company was founded in 1972, but many of the designs that are still used have been around for a long time, in some form- things are tweaked and super-special parts are inserted, but 30+ year old equipment isn't old. 70+ year old equipment is old. The age really isn't relevant unless it's due for service because parts are failing.

Small speakers ARE NOT made to fill a large room. If your friend thinks they'll do this, he needs to learn something about acoustics and I don't mean treatment, I mean fundamentals. If he wants the speakers to sound more full, they need to be closer to at least two boundaries- whether they're walls, wall(s) & floor, wall(s) & ceiling or in a book case is less important than making sure this can be done. Also, the sensitivity of 91dB/W/M is good, but if he needs more headroom, the speakers ned to be closer. The boundaries plus the decrease in difference can make the difference between using 5W or 1-2W and with a small-ish amplifier, it matters.

If he's on a tight budget, the last thing he needs is that other pinhead getting his attention- cables and a new, fancy DAC will only waste money. Please tell me he listens to mostly analog sources- that would make my day. It would also show that the other pinhead didn't listen to him when he described what he wanted.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Don't tell your friend to do anything. The other person has their ear. Honestly better speakers are needed. If the room isn't large and the listening distance isn't way off 35 watts is going to do a lot with some efficient speakers.

If you want to have some fun, find out what cables he purchased, find the ones that are a price tier or two above.

Tell him the sound stage STILL sounds 'veiled' and 'smeared' and that the Pace, Rythm, andTiming(PRAT) are 'off' and that he needs to upgrade to the ones costing 3 times as much. And then DROP the matter. It will drive impressionable minds bonkers.
That is SO something I would do. Well, mebbe not to a friend. My wife has a friend with a husband whom I can't stand. Big time one upper. I told my wife to go ahead and invite him in so he can hear my system. He listened intently and when I turned it up his eyes got big. I know it won't be long before he shells out thousands and will likely buy into snake oil and set everything up wrong.

I might even suggest exotic cables.

I love it.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
That is SO something I would do. Well, mebbe not to a friend. My wife has a friend with a husband whom I can't stand. Big time one upper. I told my wife to go ahead and invite him in so he can hear my system. He listened intently and when I turned it up his eyes got big. I know it won't be long before he shells out thousands and will likely buy into snake oil and set everything up wrong.

I might even suggest exotic cables.

I love it.
I know a few people like that, always must have the latest and greatest and the best of everything.

Nevermind if they won't use it to its full potential. Always broke, and if an unexpected expenditure comes up, they are in trouble, but hey they have nice things :rolleyes:

I'm more of the school of "what's the least $ I can spend to do the job, and not feel a need to upgrade any time soon".
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I know a few people like that, always must have the latest and greatest and the best of everything.

Nevermind if they won't use it to its full potential. Always broke, and if an unexpected expenditure comes up, they are in trouble, but hey they have nice things :rolleyes:

I'm more of the school of "what's the least $ I can spend to do the job, and not feel a need to upgrade any time soon".
You know him! :p

He'll just run up his cc even more than he already has. It's all gonna come crashing down on him sooner or later. I can't stand that guy. Lives off the government, spends thousands on a whim and flaunts it. He's an idiot. Talk about things that make your... argh!
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Don't tell your friend to do anything.
jinjuku
Don't tell your friend to do anything is a great piece of life advice. If a friend asks for some advice, its pretty safe to give opinions on what you feel may be appropriate. If a friend isn't asking for advice and you still feel compelled to give it : its largely a waste of time and effort. Adult males are remarkably resistant to accepting advice. They will go to outrageous lengths to avoid a good suggestion.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
That is SO something I would do. Well, mebbe not to a friend. My wife has a friend with a husband whom I can't stand. Big time one upper. I told my wife to go ahead and invite him in so he can hear my system. He listened intently and when I turned it up his eyes got big. I know it won't be long before he shells out thousands and will likely buy into snake oil and set everything up wrong.

I might even suggest exotic cables.

I love it.
Tell him, "Yeah it's no Bose, but it's not bad, and it's not like I have Bose money to throw around" and then secretly laugh your ass off when you hear he bought a set of 901s.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Please tell me he listens to mostly analog sources- that would make my day. It would also show that the other pinhead didn't listen to him when he described what he wanted.
:D Next best thing - he has a rather decent audio card/DAC in his desktop PC (50 - 60$) that does all what is needed. The guy wasn't satisfied with the fact that it's a long running (nonsense, it is 3 meters) cable from the PC audio card to the amp.

I'm more of the school of "what's the least $ I can spend to do the job, and not feel a need to upgrade any time soon".
Yeah, this is it; you're not set on a piece of equipment, the sound is your aim and you're always asking yourself how can I get it for least buck spent.

jinjuku
Don't tell your friend to do anything is a great piece of life advice. If a friend asks for some advice, its pretty safe to give opinions on what you feel may be appropriate. If a friend isn't asking for advice and you still feel compelled to give it : its largely a waste of time and effort. Adult males are remarkably resistant to accepting advice. They will go to outrageous lengths to avoid a good suggestion.
I completely agree. I started questioning myself. I was thinking why do I genuinely feel bad even when I see a complete stranger being fooled. But... I do... I feel bad. I don't think that it should be fair game - as much as you can fool someone kudos to you. Even if the snake oil vendor truly believes what he sells he should be stopped.

This is a funny story, I remember when one healer wanted to visit my country for the second time and he didn't get permission for his sessions. And he started complaining and name-dropping, like "do you know all the celebrities I healed" and he goes into naming every each one of them and they were all dead from the diseases he was "treating". :D:D:D:D Some black comedy right there.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I don't have anything to add to this thread, only that I'm glad to see it. A few years ago we had a tradition of occasionally posting threads about things that bothered us. Search for "What Grinds My Gears", they're worth re-reading. Nearly all were fun to read – some were hilarious.

Anyway, I'm glad to see someone has done it again. Thanks killdozzer!
 
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