Is There a Breaking-in Period for an Amplifier?

highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
An excellent observation. Too close to reality for some folks on this thread and therefore I'm sure they will pass it by. I'm with the pantergastk on this thread: the OP started off quoting thermodynamics and then followed it up immediately with the thought of coldening.
I thought 'coldening' was the opposite of 'hottening'.

That's it! I'm getting a new Roger's Thesperus! I heard something about a book by someone called Roget- I'll have to check it out.

'Colden'and 'hotten' are actually old English words and it isn't wrong to use them, just not common.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/colden#English

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hotten
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
I thought 'coldening' was the opposite of 'hottening'.

That's it! I'm getting a new Roger's Thesperus! I heard something about a book by someone called Roget- I'll have to check it out.

'Colden'and 'hotten' are actually old English words and it isn't wrong to use them, just not common.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/colden#English

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hotten
highfigh
it is for these dollops of wisdom that I live and search the AH forum. I am indebted to you.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Hey, Bose isn't so bad. Just look at the 901 measurements. :D


A couple of points about the 901...
  • Major bass resonance @ 200Hz..
  • EQ box has selectable (6) EQ curves
  • EQ box boosts the bass up by 12dB
  • EQ box boosts the treble up by 8dB
If it sounds good to ur ears then all is well..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Hey, but if these ultra perceptive people can imagine all of these changes, they really ought not leave nothing out. I wonder if they notice the difference of when the new electronics smell gets cooked out of their electronics too. I mean, surely their sense of smell must be killer too.

It just tickles me a little to think that so many people consider their superior senses must be at a constant state of calibrated perfection. It could not possibly be their imaginations being better at adapting to something new than they can control. It has to be the equipment breaking in! What kind of walking, instrument of audiophilic precision could they possibly be, with that amount of slop between their ears?
If they are imagining them, there is no effect.

If they are hearing them, there is.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
And there can be much imagining in what some hear....
funny you say that for it amazes me the number of audiophiles that refuse to admit to the powers of psychoacoustics. Myself, I fully accept the fact and have no problem with it's presence.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
funny you say that for it amazes me the number of audiophiles that refuse to admit to the powers of psychoacoustics. Myself, I fully accept the fact and have no problem with it's presence.
Such as?
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Take simple, varying degrees of distraction, as an example. Like listening to music while reading, perhaps, or a phone call. Some evenings, it takes me a few to get into it. I suppose I could as well say that the speakers finally warmed up. :D
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
highfigh
it is for these dollops of wisdom that I live and search the AH forum. I am indebted to you.
I'll send a bill. Please pay promptly.

I had an uncle who would ask my aunt to 'Could you hotten my coffee?' when it was cold. I think he was born in about 1915, so....
 
R

roguemodel

Audiophyte
I realize this is an old thread, but, as Gene would offer 'you can't measure break in,' my words not his. My buddy brought over a Marantz 7025 because I wanted more power for transients in my system. I have a BC Aoustique EX332.2 Integrated at 100 wpc and it is an excellent int. The Marantz is rated at 140 wpc and if you know Marantz it is authentic and conservative. I loved the sound produced by the Marantz. On par with the 332.2. I bought the Maratiz and used the 332.2 as a preamp, which is excellent as it is completely isolated in mono configuration from the other circuits. My Marantz sounded muffled, female voices sounded masked. did a blind A/B and 4 "audiophiles" chose the sound of the 2-year-old Marantz. Fast forward to 150 hr run time. Now the amps were identical in sound. The female voice is astonishing to measure what one hears. Try listening to Can't Help Falling in Love with You by Kinna Grannis, a true acid test for your system.

And that is the point, you cannot measure break-in. You cannot measure break-in on a speaker cable, which I doubt exists. Although according to some the electric signal that passes through speaker cable does align the grains in the copper. However, capacitors, resistors, and triodes do need to have current run through to settle in. Current resistance can be measured through specific parts. Can I hear the difference in a loudspeaker that uses sonicaps, foil inductors, and mills resistors compared to steel inductors, sand cast resistors, and cheap capacitors? Yes, easily. Reviewers of high-end gear developed their own vocabulary to describe what they hear. It is subjective. One of my friends who has more money than god, runs D'agostino amps into Von Schweikert Audio Ultra 9s. He actually likes my system, a very modest low-end system. Do I like his system? It is pretty to look at, but the sound is to refined? To sterile? again....descriptions which belie actual measurement. How can you describe the sound of a $100,000 amplifier against an amp that sells for $150,000? Made up subjective words designed to justify a reviewer's existence and the existence of a $150,000 amp. Roy Kimber was asked once why he sold expensive cables. He answered because he could. People will buy. "I run an $8000 8 gauge power cable out of a Niagara 3000 into my Esoteric amp"....which then funnels all that power through a tiny wire in a fuse, then even tinier wire in the circuit. COMING from a crap electrical grid including the wires in my house (sic) Come on man! Can the music you play through your system move your emotions? If yes, then you are there, no need to move forward. And, as Steve Meijas once wrote, "any real hi-fi system has got to be better than an imaginary one, right?"
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I'm definitely in the camp that it must be measurable. Almost custom printed to the querry, this from a new article here:

The transfer function of a piece of electronics fully encompasses everything coming out of that piece of electronics. Nothing can hide. If you look at the difference In the transfer function between a piece of equipment using two different cables and there is no difference in the transfer function, then nothing changed. If nothing changed, there cannot be an audible difference.

In other words, for a cable to make a difference, it must either change the signal or fail to change the signal (as compared to some base reference). If it changes the signal, it’s flawed. If it fails to change the signal, then a difference assumes the base reference cable used in testing is itself flawed. If there is no difference, there is no difference. Our ears are not needed to know if that is true.

While we know that cables have enough differences in their electrical properties to make very small differences in the transfer function (which we can argue about audibility all day), I have never seen evidence that audiophile cable companies are somehow providing superior measuring cables as compared to the best commercial stock used in professional settings (i.e. Belden and Mogami).
The same would seem to apply to electronic break-in time. A new piece of equipment would measure differently as the components "settle in," as you said.

Beyond that, many claim that Crossover components matter, and many others still say they don't. Why would skilled and talented designers say that there is no difference in basic vs premium components... an Audyn Q4 cap against a Mundorf Silver-Gold Oil, say?

Mind, I don't have the knowledge to answer this problem, but I do accept that a difference, if it exists, would be measurable.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
As someone who has built, and rebuilt some amps, I find the idea of an audible break-in, preposterous, past initial warm up, and well into the degradation, end of life period. Why? Because my final bias settings would change, and that could be problematic, especially from one channel to the next. Capacitors, for example, by default, tend to have a margin of error that can measurably vary as much as 2-10%, for even reputable brands. What if all, or most the capacitors, managed to skirt the maximum of that value in one unit? In a mass production sense, that has to happen at least some of the time. In other words, the unit would at least have to be broken-in at the factory.

As it stands, when building, or rebuilding an amp, I only have to let it come up to operating temperature once, for about 20 minutes, to set the final bias settings. Just to be sure, I check them again after it's warmed up and played under load for awhile. I usually give it a week or so on the bench. My settings don't change, provided I wasn't drunk when I soldered the thing up. The pots used to set these values with, are so incredibly sensitive sometimes. Even just relieving the directional pressure from the screwdriver can change it.

What does change? I change. My mood changes and my sinuses due to dust and allergies sometimes, or if it's been a particularly noisy day at work. I can warm up to pieces of equipment as I play them. Sometimes, my sensory attention span is more clear. I have a pair of wide band speakers that are a little thin when first turning them on. After about 10 mins though, they sound incredibly detailed and the midrange, incredibly clear. I have to warm up to something that precise, it seems. The variable here is dependent on how much I am paying attention. It's much less noticeable say, if I am reading while listening, perhaps.

It's not a bad thing to admit 'self' break-in. It happens with the way a car feels the first day you sit in the seat, to a week from then, how food tastes and everything else. Even girlfriends and such, and is certainly more explainable than electronic voo-doo.
 
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