Is it really worth the extra moolah?

[HT4ME]

Hello one and all!

I am purchasing the following components for my home theater (questions to follow):

LF & RF: Martin Logan Ethos
Center:Martin Logan Stage X
Subwoofer: Martin Logan Descent i
SL, SR, RL, RR: Martin Logan Vanquish

Now for the questions...
1. One of the authorized dealerships indicated a high end receiver is a must for high end speakers. His recommendation is the Arcam FMJ AVR450. This puppy runs around $5000!!!! Is this really necessary? I would think a mid range receiver like the Marantz SR7008 would do the job nicely. Thoughts?

2. Same dealer, same line (expensive): The same dealer indicated I needed high end wire for a noticeable difference in sound. His recommendation: Audioquest Rocket 44. This stuff costs around $700 for a 20 foot run. Now I have been on this forum for awhile and it seems to be a mantra that wire is wire. Please confirm.

I know my speaker choices are expensive; however, this is where I chose to spend the majority of my budget. Any assistance or recommendations will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Matthew

 

[3db]

Hello one and all!

I am purchasing the following components for my home theater (questions to follow):

LF & RF: Martin Logan Ethos
Center:Martin Logan Stage X
Subwoofer: Martin Logan Descent i
SL, SR, RL, RR: Martin Logan Vanquish

Now for the questions...
1. One of the authorized dealerships indicated a high end receiver is a must for high end speakers. His recommendation is the Arcam FMJ AVR450. This puppy runs around $5000!!!! Is this really necessary? I would think a mid range receiver like the Marantz SR7008 would do the job nicely. Thoughts?

2. Same dealer, same line (expensive): The same dealer indicated I needed high end wire for a noticeable difference in sound. His recommendation: Audioquest Rocket 44. This stuff costs around $700 for a 20 foot run. Now I have been on this forum for awhile and it seems to be a mantra that wire is wire. Please confirm.

I know my speaker choices are expensive; however, this is where I chose to spend the majority of my budget. Any assistance or recommendations will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Matthew

I would take my business else where if I were you. You don't need a high end receiver to driver speakers unless the highend receiver has a distinct and significant power advantage over the one you were looking at. Even at that, most mid priced receivers will do more than adequately unless the room is overly large and you want to listen at insanely loud volume levels.

The biggest lie in audio is high end audio cables and speaker wire. That's a load of horse shite. The sales person suggesting that only wants to make money because cables and interconnects have a really large markup built into their price. A 10" cable from Blue Jeans will sound just as good as a $2000 high end cable. I would go else whereas this person is trying to scam you for everything he can get. Tell him you heard it from an Electrical Engineer who just happens to know/understand signal transmission in cables, waveguides, and fiber optic cable.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In my very humble opinion, HELLS NO FOR THE LOVE OF GODS !!!!

I am sure that $5,000 Arcam is very nice, but the last time I checked, it probably doesn't even measure any better than a $500 Sony AVR.

IMO, the $5K Arcam won't make your speakers sound any better.

No, don't spend a lot of money on AVR, pre-pros, amps, wires. Unless you are just loaded and darn rich.

Just use the AVR you already own.

If not, one sensible choice would be to call Onecall and ask if they will sell you a Denon AVR-4311 for $1200. They are retailed $2K, listed now at $1399. But Electronic Expo was selling them for $1225 shipped to some members until they ran out of stock.

 

[ImcLoud]

I agree move on to another dealer, where are you located maybe someone here can recommend a good place to get honest info..

 

[jcl]

The MLs are listed as having impedance (from the manual) of Nominal: 4 ohms, 0.8 ohms @ 20 kHz

So the dealer could be correct about getting an avr stable into 4 ohms. As others have said, you should be able get a suitable avr for less than $5k.

Nothing wrong with Monoprice or Bluejeans cables. You are smart to spend your money where it matters.

 

[PENG]

The MLs are listed as having impedance (from the manual) of Nominal: 4 ohms, 0.8 ohms @ 20 kHz

So the dealer could be correct about getting an avr stable into 4 ohms. As others have said, you should be able get a suitable avr for less than $5k.

Nothing wrong with Monoprice or Bluejeans cables. You are smart to spend your money where it matters.

The woofers have their own class D amplifiers so I would think any upper mid range AVR in a medium size room should be fine.

 

[PENG]

Hello one and all!


I know my speaker choices are expensive; however, this is where I chose to spend the majority of my budget. Any assistance or recommendations will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Matthew

You have your priority right. Any good quality 12 AWG (10 for longer runs, say 20 ft) wires should be fine for those speakers. For AVR, a $2000 Dennon AVR4520, $1300 AVR4311, or the SR7008 should be fine. If you feel the need later on, just add a 2 or 3 channel power amp to drive the front and the AVR can do the rest with ease.

The Arcam will sound sweet but so will the Denon, Marantz, or Yamaha.

 

[cpp]

Sounds like a dealer that is after one thing, your hard earned money. Cables, the snake oil of the century

 

[Hocky]

The woofers have their own class D amplifiers so I would think any upper mid range AVR in a medium size room should be fine.

They do, but impedance gets worse as frequency rises, dipping down to sub 1 ohm. Those internal amps don't help a lot. You need proper amplification.... especially with 6 channels of true ESL. I would question whether that Arcam will even get it done. I would buy a $1-2k receiver/processor plus outboard amplification.

 

[M Code]

In my very humble opinion, HELLS NO FOR THE LOVE OF GODS !!!!

I am sure that $5,000 Arcam is very nice, but the last time I checked, it probably doesn't even measure any better than a $500 Sony AVR.

IMO, the $5K Arcam won't make your speakers sound any better.

No, don't spend a lot of money on AVR, pre-pros, amps, wires. Unless you are just loaded and darn rich.

Just use the AVR you already own.

If not, one sensible choice would be to call Onecall and ask if they will sell you a Denon AVR-4311 for $1200. They are retailed $2K, listed now at $1399. But Electronic Expo was selling them for $1225 shipped to some members until they ran out of stock.

I would steer far away from Electronics Expo since they are in bankruptcy proceedings..

Just my $0.05...

 

[mtrycrafts]

They do, but impedance gets worse as frequency rises, dipping down to sub 1 ohm. ....

Yes, this may be so but the power needed at those high frequencies is low and will not need an amp rated to 1 Ohms with continuous power at 100 watts. Lucky if it will need 1 watt.

 

[RichB]

I would steer far away from Electronics Expo since they are in bankruptcy proceedings..

Just my $0.05...

good to know.

inflation is everywhere, I remember when your advice only cost $.02

- Rich

 

[Hocky]

Yes, this may be so but the power needed at those high frequencies is low and will not need an amp rated to 1 Ohms with continuous power at 100 watts. Lucky if it will need 1 watt.

That is all great in theory until the power supply is constantly dealing with near dead short conditions and gives up.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would steer far away from Electronics Expo since they are in bankruptcy proceedings..

Just my $0.05...

Good point.

Vanns is also under the economic storm.

The only reason to buy online from an authorized dealer is to get a significant saving. Otherwise, buy locally.

Personally, I would use Electronic Expo only for price match and purchase from my local Best Buy store.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, this may be so but the power needed at those high frequencies is low and will not need an amp rated to 1 Ohms with continuous power at 100 watts. Lucky if it will need 1 watt.

There is no way of knowing how some people set up and use their systems. That's why we see reports of AVRs going into protection mode. I've owned speakers with minimum measured impedance of under 2 ohms, and I've driven them w/ 50WPC AVR withOUT any kind of issues in my 18 x 20 room.

And then I see people with Klipsch and other higher efficiency speakers (> 95dB/2.83v/m, 4 ohms min) and they somehow manage to put their AVRs into protection mode.

Too many variables.

But like you, I also believe that for most people, they will not need all that power and amps.

 

[Cos]

I still kick myself when I bought my first Anthem AVM 30 and paid $150x4 for a H1000i Monster interconnects x 1m. I have been using Blue Jeans Cables ever since and will never get scammed like that again.

As for AVR, I bow down to what has already been said, I doubt you will find any difference between the suggested models, and for 5k you can get a nice pre/pro and amp setup if you really want to.

 

[Hocky]

There is no way of knowing how some people set up and use their systems. That's why we see reports of AVRs going into protection mode. I've owned speakers with minimum measured impedance of under 2 ohms, and I've driven them w/ 50WPC AVR withOUT any kind of issues in my 18 x 20 room.

And then I see people with Klipsch and other higher efficiency speakers (> 95dB/2.83v/m, 4 ohms min) and they somehow manage to put their AVRs into protection mode.

Too many variables.

But like you, I also believe that for most people, they will not need all that power and amps.

I never actually ran my stuff on a receiver, but a friend brought over his Onkyo 1010, I think, and we measured it out for giggles. My main amp measured smooth FR toward the top end. The AVR's measurements were very jagged and allow over the place, +/- 10db at least, from ~14k-20k. That was the case with several external amps, too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I never actually ran my stuff on a receiver, but a friend brought over his Onkyo 1010, I think, and we measured it out for giggles. My main amp measured smooth FR toward the top end. The AVR's measurements were very jagged and allow over the place, +/- 10db at least, from ~14k-20k. That was the case with several external amps, too.

But is it a case of "power" or "impedance"?

Would a 50 WPC amp that is stable into 1 ohm measure and PERFORM as just great?

 

[jcl]

I think this is a good example where it would be nice to be able to trust the dealer. Where a brick and mortar dealer could really add value, but appear to be falling down. Ideally they would have experience with the product and setup with different customers and would have good advice. However, with the other recommendations it's hard not to think they're just trying to get more money out of you.

If it were me I'd get a reasonably priced avr with preouts and an external amp from the likes of Emotiva or a b stock ATI to power at least the front 3.

 

[Hocky]

But is it a case of "power" or "impedance"?

Would a 50 WPC amp that is stable into 1 ohm measure and PERFORM as just great?

It was not power... we were doing sweeps at like 80db. It was definitely related to stability at those crazy swings.