Interesting AVS Loudspeaker Thread Spurts Audioholics Article Idea

[gene]

This thread at AVS Forum has inspired me to co-author a new article with Paul Apollonio about Loudspeakers titled:

Loudspeakers: Is Your Favorite Manufacturer Cutting Costs?

In it I will be discussing the benefits of using higher quality drive units, crossovers and bracing and the importance of proper execution in the design. We will explore if buying Internet Direct speakers really offers the end user a better value product or if its just another marketing tactic to increase profit margins by cutting out the middle man.

I will also be discussing the nonsense surrounding most Double Blind tests which are typically really only Single Blind Tests, run and controlled by the manufacturer whose product is in the shootout with their own panel of trained listeners who can pick out the sonic signature of their speakers both sighted and blind.

We will discuss the notion of "similarly good" and how its a brilliant marketing scheme to ensure the manufacturer making that claim can NEVER lose in a faceoff even if pitted up against much costlier and sonically superior speakers.

This should make for an interesting read and I hope you all enjoy it.

In the meantime, I suggest reading Audio Measurements: The Useful vs the Bogus as a primer.

 

[MinusTheBear]

If there are employees sitting on the listening panel as well then it is not even a single blind test. It's just marketing nonsense. Like as you said, there is a good chance OR potential they would be able to pick out there own speaker. That is a HUGE bias. Nobody wants to offend their boss. The kicker would be the guy's designing the speaker sitting on the listening panel. LOL

 

[gene]

Last year when I hosted our $1k Floorstanding Speaker Faceoff, both myself and Clint were able to identify the speakers after only a few short listening trials. Each brand typically has a defined sonic signature that a trained listener can identify. Imagine being around speakers you build all day long how easy it would be to pick yours out blind. The arrogance in denying this as a bias amazes me. A speaker shootout, either sighted or blind should always list all sources of bias like we typically do so the reader can really get an understanding of the limitations of the test.

 

[billy p]

Well you know if you implicate Axiom in those finding ....because of your past histroy with them...they'll bill it as a vendetta?

 

[MinusTheBear]

For a true double-blind you would need a knowledgable 3rd party conducting the experiment and a 3rd party listening panel (not tied to any manufacturer) and the resources equivalent to what Harman uses for their controlled listening tests. Another thing about some of the so called double blind listening is that with using a handful of employees, there is no statistical significance to the results, which makes the listening test and 'science" behind it pointless.

Double-blind is ULTRA critical testing adhering to the strictest scientific methodology. To pull off a true double blind is not only costly it would take a ton of time to put together. And like you said, bias will still exist.

 

[gene]

Well you know if you implicate Axiom in those finding ....because of your past histroy with them...they'll bill it as a vendetta?

I am not implicating any brands in this article nor am I bashing any. Instead I am praising those that go the extra mile to delivering a true high performance speaker.

 

[zieglj01]

I for one tend to be a little concerned - and really based on suggested retail prices.
I recently bought the former Destination Audio F300R (RBH family) bookshelf speaker
off Ebay - the suggested retail price at the time was $320.
It did poor on the door knock test - no block bracing inside - no cross bracing - also
very thin damping material. To me, this contributed to coloring the sound, that I hear
in the midrange. It also seemed to effect the sound of brass instruments, and female
singing voices. Also, speaking voices in general, seemed some what weak. Just to
test this - I treated the side panels and bottom panel, and added more damping to
the box. To me, this brought the speaker up, to another level. The drivers are good,
the crossover looks good - The box was playing a part in the sound character. I do
hope that the current crop is better.

 

[gene]

For a true double-blind you would need a knowledgable 3rd party conducting the experiment and a 3rd party listening panel (not tied to any manufacturer) and the resources equivalent to what Harman uses for their controlled listening tests. Another thing about some of the so called double blind listening is that with using a handful of employees, there is no statistical significance to the results, which makes the listening test and 'science" behind it pointless.

Double-blind is ULTRA critical testing adhering to the strictest scientific methodology. To pull off a true double blind is not only costly it would take a ton of time to put together. And like you said, bias will still exist.

Yep that's an older cabinet and a budget product which is discontinued that could certainly benefit from what you did. Smaller cabinets typically don't need much bracing since the panel length is so small and resonance is higher but what you did can help. Again this exemplifies why what is inside the cabinet, including the cabinet itself really makes a difference.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'd like to see some serious analysis on any consequences (or lack thereof) using iron core inductors for woofer/mid crossovers

 

[gene]

I'd like to see some serious analysis on any consequences (or lack thereof) using iron core inductors for woofer/mid crossovers

This has already been done in these articles:

Crossover: Brains of your Loudspeaker

and this:

Crossover: Brains of your Loudspeaker Part II

In a nutshell, its usually impractical to use an air core on a woofer b/c the value is too large and would require thick wire which makes the part very expensive and bulky. Iron cores can be used here if they DON'T saturate under the loudspeakers safe max output levels.

Air cores should be used for mids/tweets since small iron cores tend to saturate at low power levels.

 

[Paul_Apollonio]

It's been DONE

I'd like to see some serious analysis on any consequences (or lack thereof) using iron core inductors for woofer/mid crossovers

Actually, I already did that analysis, and it is in one of the articles I wrote about crossovers. It really did piss off a lot of folks who want to say I can't hear the difference, simply because THEY can't hear the difference.

"There are never any shortage of people willing to claim a given level of distortion is inaudible" - Dave Hadaway, DB Systems circa 1984 (or sooner).

The reality is that when the Edison phonograph came on the market, it was hailed as "virtually indistinguishable from the original". Now of course we laugh at that, because the history of audio is repleat with instances of engineering advanced only to be followed by audibility advances.....

It is also a fact that RCA Victor had a fight with Edison over the disc versus the cylinder, and even back then, big $$ won the argument. For some background on this you can go here: http://www.tmworld.com/article/445845-Testing_the_pro_s_audio.php#Vintage_sound

As Minus the Bear pointed out, using your own employees who get to stop working and continue to make a living listening to music will tell you, better learn to identify the product we sell, or you won't get a return invitation.. Of course if you would rather do something else..

Paul Apollonio

 

[MinusTheBear]

Dog show judges need to start using the criteria of "similarly good". Even your puppy could win!

 

[lsiberian]

For a true double-blind you would need a knowledgable 3rd party conducting the experiment and a 3rd party listening panel (not tied to any manufacturer) and the resources equivalent to what Harman uses for their controlled listening tests. Another thing about some of the so called double blind listening is that with using a handful of employees, there is no statistical significance to the results, which makes the listening test and 'science" behind it pointless.

Double-blind is ULTRA critical testing adhering to the strictest scientific methodology. To pull off a true double blind is not only costly it would take a ton of time to put together. And like you said, bias will still exist.

Problem is that is all very expensive and difficult to organize. Also there is not a huge upside to the experiment. The average Joe thinks a Sony home theater is great sound.

 

[alphaiii]

I for one tend to be a little concerned - and really based on suggested retail prices.
I recently bought the former Destination Audio F300R (RBH family) bookshelf speaker
off Ebay - the suggested retail price at the time was $320.
It did poor on the door knock test - no block bracing inside - no cross bracing - also
very thin damping material. To me, this contributed to coloring the sound, that I hear
in the midrange. It also seemed to effect the sound of brass instruments, and female
singing voices. Also, speaking voices in general, seemed some what weak. Just to
test this - I treated the side panels and bottom panel, and added more damping to
the box. To me, this brought the speaker up, to another level. The drivers are good,
the crossover looks good - The box was playing a part in the sound character. I do
hope that the current crop is better.

I received my pair of F300R's today... and was certainly disappointed in the cabinet quality... and wasn't impressed with sound on first listen.

I took out the woofer to scope out the interior as well... fully expecting not to see any bracing... and I was correct.

On top of that, the front baffle is only made of 1/2" MDF... not sure about the other panels, but I'd hope they aren't thinner.

A suggested retail of $320 for these things makes me laugh.

 

[zieglj01]

A suggested retail of $320 for these things makes me laugh.

It was a big let down - the Absolute Zero use to sell for $300.
The cabinet build quality is much better. The $219 Cambridge
S30, is cross braced.
Once you treat the walls and bottom, plus add extra damping,
the Destination/Emptek speaker does improve. However, it
does not take much, to strip the screws. The new speaker is
said to be 1 pound lighter.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Problem is that is all very expensive and difficult to organize. Also there is not a huge upside to the experiment. The average Joe thinks a Sony home theater is great sound.

You're right. A "true" double-blind doesn't really exist in audio. Adhering to a standard (controlling any potential bias on all ends (experimenter, subjects, analysis) equivalent to that of a medical trial for example. Audio isn't life or death so the term is abused. It's a catchy term for people on message boards and manufacturers a like.

I agree there is not likely a huge upside, relative to the cost. At the end of the day, real world listening is biased. In audio if someone convinces themselves of something based on their biases in their own home, they will "hear" it. There is no double-blind experiment that can control this factor.

 

[highfigh]

You're right. A "true" double-blind doesn't really exist in audio. Adhering to a standard (controlling any potential bias on all ends (experimenter, subjects, analysis) equivalent to that of a medical trial for example. Audio isn't life or death so the term is abused. It's a catchy term for people on message boards and manufacturers a like.

I agree there is not likely a huge upside, relative to the cost. At the end of the day, real world listening is biased. In audio if someone convinces themselves of something based on their biases in their own home, they will "hear" it. There is no double-blind experiment that can control this factor.

Wouldn't a "true double blind" test be possible if:

One person or crew set up the switching system and played no further part in the testing
The switching system gave no indication of which speakers were playing
The test administrator didn't know which speakers were playing
The administrator had no interaction with the test subjects (possibly by using one person to tell the switch operator and subjects when the speakers were being switched and the switch operator making the switch at that time)
The subjects had no idea of which speakers were playing at any time
The subjects weren't employees of any speaker manufacturer, electronics company or magazine

Part of the problem with total elimination of bias is that, if the subjects are not familiar with critical listening, they would have to be taught to do this and I'm not sure there's anyone who can teach this without biasing the lessons without imparting something to the instructions unless the teaching criteria were written by a committee of various "experts".

 

[highfigh]

This thread at AVS Forum has inspired me to co-author a new article with Paul Apollonio about Loudspeakers titled:

Loudspeakers: Is Your Favorite Manufacturer Cutting Costs?

In it I will be discussing the benefits of using higher quality drive units, crossovers and bracing and the importance of proper execution in the design. We will explore if buying Internet Direct speakers really offers the end user a better value product or if its just another marketing tactic to increase profit margins by cutting out the middle man.

I will also be discussing the nonsense surrounding most Double Blind tests which are typically really only Single Blind Tests, run and controlled by the manufacturer whose product is in the shootout with their own panel of trained listeners who can pick out the sonic signature of their speakers both sighted and blind.

We will discuss the notion of "similarly good" and how its a brilliant marketing scheme to ensure the manufacturer making that claim can NEVER lose in a faceoff even if pitted up against much costlier and sonically superior speakers.

This should make for an interesting read and I hope you all enjoy it.

In the meantime, I suggest reading Audio Measurements: The Useful vs the Bogus as a primer.

What starting price point will be used? I'm not sure it's fair to expect a company that sells speakers with a list price of $300/pair or less to be included because it's not possible to sell to a retailer and still make enough profit when there are several stops in the distribution chain. How will the speakers be grouped- retail price or configuration?

 

[MinusTheBear]

Wouldn't a "true double blind" test be possible if:

One person or crew set up the switching system and played no further part in the testing
The switching system gave no indication of which speakers were playing
The test administrator didn't know which speakers were playing
The administrator had no interaction with the test subjects (possibly by using one person to tell the switch operator and subjects when the speakers were being switched and the switch operator making the switch at that time)
The subjects had no idea of which speakers were playing at any time
The subjects weren't employees of any speaker manufacturer, electronics company or magazine

Part of the problem with total elimination of bias is that, if the subjects are not familiar with critical listening, they would have to be taught to do this and I'm not sure there's anyone who can teach this without biasing the lessons without imparting something to the instructions unless the teaching criteria were written by a committee of various "experts".

You would also need to control positional bias of the speakers during the switching on the experimenter end. And to do this properly and control "audio memory" you would need a very costly speaker shuffler. Harman is the only one in the audio industry that I know of that uses this sort of technology in their controlled tests.

 

[MinusTheBear]

The non-uniform off-axis response of the VP150 is an interesting graph over at AVS. The first room I had it in I was sitting on-axis, but since I moved it to another (larger) room where the majority of sitting positions are off-axis I have had trouble with speech intelligibility. I have also been able to play with placement. What I have also experienced since there is more freedom for placement, the degree the tone of the speaker changes just from moving the speaker a few feet vertically (above and below tv). It is very audible! I have never seen a speaker so (negatively) influenced by the room. Not just trying to get natural speech, but also providing a close timbre to the mains. It is very inconsistent.