Integrating Monitor Speakers w. Sub for 2.1 Music?

[Ears to you]

I would be very grateful for any advice you guys could give me as to how to best combine my B&W CM5 speakers with my Hsu VTF-1 sub for 2.1 music. My system consists of Sonos>Arcam irDAC>Naim XS2 int. amp w. Teddycap PSU>B&W CM5s + Hsu sub. Since I've had this sub from my 5.1 HT setup w. Marantz AVR that the Naim is merged with, it adds some bottom end for music when I configure it to play subtly as a sealed 10"version, as the 2 ports can be and are closed with foam plugs. Would adding high pass caps at the speaker terminals better allow the CM5s to be freed of LF duties by not playing as full range in addition to the sub, and allow the sub to cover maybe 80Hz and below for a better overall sound? Thx!

 

[ImcLoud]

I would use a mini dsp in a box MiniDSP 2x4 | MiniDSP

Instead of paying all that money for a teddy cap, I would have bought better speakers and subs... If you can still return some of that stuff it may be worth looking into.. Spending $2000 on an amp them $500 on a psu for it sounds like a lot of money from my listening position... I have sampled, demoe'd and critical listened to a lot of equipment, what you have listed can easily be bested by a pair of $850 philharmonitors, a pair of sb12 nsd subs, and a stack of parasound Z-gear, like a zdac, zamp, and zpre...

Thin about is
phil books $850
pair of sb 12nsd $1200
zdac $300 http://www.amazon.com/Parasound-Digital-Analog-Converter-Black/dp/B00ANTVS90/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1407255140&sr=1-5&keywords=\parasound
zcd $180 http://www.amazon.com/Parasound-Zcd-CD-Player-USB/dp/B00859LIWM/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1407255140&sr=1-2&keywords=\parasound
zpre $350 http://www.amazon.com/Parasound-Zpre2-Audio-Video-Preamplifier/dp/B001RIKIV0/ref=sr_1_9?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1407255140&sr=1-9&keywords=\parasound
pair of z amps ran mono $600 http://www.amazon.com/PARASOUND-Zamp-v-3-Discrete-Amplifier/dp/B00MCWG2LU/ref=sr_1_17?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1407255140&sr=1-17&keywords=\parasound

that entire stack of electronics would be around $1400 and give you a cd player, a dac, pre amp, 2 mono amps with 90w per channel.... grab a zrack to fit it all in one nice package http://www.garrett-smarthome.com/proddetail.php?prod=Zrack or you can buy them with out the rack ears and stack them up on a nice stand..

If you don't like the half rack stuff you can get a halo p5 and an a23..


Anyway way off track, check out the mini dsp for sub control, I started using them and love them, also you are going to want dual subs, it smooths out the response and makes mixing with mains much much easier..

 

[Ears to you]

Thx Imcloud. It was all bought used within the last couple of years, so the outlay wasn't so bad (CM5s-$650, Naim-$1300, Teddycap-$420, Hsu-$225, irDAC-$450) and the sound is very clean and detailed, as I listen to acoustic jazz, classical, blues, R&B, and classic rock. The soundstage and imaging is quite good, and since I am in an apartment with my LR being 15x15x8, one sub is unfortunately all I have room for. The Philharmonitors have always interested me, as I actually did audition the Phil 2s (too big for my space) at someone's house that Dennis kindly put me in touch with.

Have you heard the Phiharmonitors, and if so, how would you characterize their sound? Do you know any owners that would let me take a listen in the Westchester County/NYC/CT area?

 

[ImcLoud]

Thx Imcloud. It was all bought used within the last couple for years a while ago, so the outlay wasn't so bad (CM5s-$650, Naim-$1300, Teddycap-$420, Hsu-$225, irDAC-$450) and the sound is very clean and detailed, as I listen to acoustic jazz, classical, blues, R&B, and classic rock. The soundstage and imaging is quite good, and since I am in an apartment with my LR being 15x15x8, one sub is unfortunately all I have room for. The Philharmonitors have always interested me, as I actually did audition the Phil 2s (too big for my space) at someone's house that Dennis kindly put me in touch with.

Have you heard the Phiharmonitors, and if so, how would you characterize their sound? Do you know any owners that would let me take a listen in the Westchester County/NYC/CT area?

I have spent some time with the phils, I like them, don't know any owners in NYC area.... I think they will be a noticeable upgrade to the cm5's... I love HSU subs, and I owned a vtf1, vtf2 is my favorite ht sub {for its size, cost, sound, and output}. But for a music only system I tried plugging my vtf2's up and moving them around, I just can't fall in love with them for that... Not sure if its because of them being down fired or what {although my wd's are down fired and sealed they sound awesome, but in a much larger room}...... For some reason I find some subs musical and some not, svs sealed subs blend really good with a pair of bookshelfs {I heard all of them}...


I understand about buying all the gear over time, wasn't sure if you just put this together recently... I would look seriously into the mini dsp, that will get your books crossed as well as your sub...

 

[Swerd]

I agree with ImcLoud about the mini DSP. You will probably have to do some trial & error before you know for certain what frequency to cross at. Those large value caps can be expensive and you may not want to buy several pairs with different values to test different frequencies.

Also a single cap makes for a high pass filter with a shallow slope of 6 dB/octave. Do the mini DSPs allow you to select different crossover slopes?

Have you heard the Phiharmonitors, and if so, how would you characterize their sound? Do you know any owners that would let me take a listen in the Westchester County/NYC/CT area?

If you've heard the Philharmonic 2, you are familiar with their midrange sound, and you will recognize the Philharmonitor. All of Dennis Murphy's designs share a common mid range voicing. The major difference will be in the bass.

In fact, Dennis has, in the past, shipped a pair of Philharmonitors for people to try in lieu of sending any of his larger designs. I'm not sure if he still does this now, you'd have to ask him. But my point is that his designs sound so similar across the mid range that the Philharmonitors can represent the rest of his line.

 

[Ears to you]

Thank you for your kind feedback, Swerd. I see that like me, you are also using a venerable AR XA turntable. I have recently thought about simply selling my modded XA, my phono preamp, and the 500 LPs that I still have after getting rid of about 1500 others about 10 years ago. These days, I am really only using the Sonos and my 1300 losslessly ripped CDs, along with internet radio and Spotify Premium. Do you find yourself playing much vinyl in comparison to CDs?

 

[Swerd]

Thank you for your kind feedback, Swerd. I see that like me, you are also using a venerable AR XA turntable. I have recently thought about simply selling my modded XA, my phono preamp, and the 500 LPs that I still have after getting rid of about 1500 others about 10 years ago. These days, I am really only using the Sonos and my 1300 losslessly ripped CDs, along with internet radio and Spotify Premium. Do you find yourself playing much vinyl in comparison to CDs?

Although I keep the old AR turntable and the old LPs, I rarely play them. They cannot compete with the more modern digital recordings. Besides, if I wanted to play an LP, I'd first have to move the pile of CDs, DVDs, and books that now sit on top of the turntable.

As someone who grew up with vinyl LPs, and who experienced the great improvement with the switch from vinyl to digital, I laugh at those who swear vinyl sounds better .

 

[Ears to you]

Although I keep the old AR turntable and the old LPs, I rarely play them. They cannot compete with the more modern digital recordings. Besides, if I wanted to play an LP, I'd first have to move the pile of CDs, DVDs, and books that now sit on top of the turntable.

As someone who grew up with vinyl LPs, and who experienced the great improvement with the switch from vinyl to digital, I laugh at those who swear vinyl sounds better .

I must agree with you, even though I always face an onslaught of vitriol from high end dealers and posters on other forums who swear by vinyl. The local dealer that carries Naim near me was trying to get me to switch to a Rega RP3 ($1050) to replace the AR, as he says that the XA, even with it's Grace tonearm and Grado Gold MM cartridge is seriously outdated, and does no justice to playing vinyl. He said that he would predict that if I sold the vinyl stuff, that I would rue the day, as many of his customers have. Another local high end dealer said exactly the same thing, but I know that when I compare the 2 sources instantly on my Naim amp, the vinyl does not intrigue me very much at all, and the ritual of cleaning, cueing, rushing to get up to raise the arm at the end, etc. does not appeal to me much at all. The same or similar for you?

 

[Swerd]

I must agree with you, even though I always face an onslaught of vitriol from high end dealers and posters on other forums who swear by vinyl. The local dealer that carries Naim near me was trying to get me to switch to a Rega RP3 ($1050) to replace the AR, as he says that the XA, even with it's Grace tonearm and Grado Gold MM cartridge is seriously outdated, and does no justice to playing vinyl. He said that he would predict that if I sold the vinyl stuff, that I would rue the day, as many of his customers have. Another local high end dealer said exactly the same thing, but I know that when I compare the 2 sources instantly on my Naim amp, the vinyl does not intrigue me very much at all, and the ritual of cleaning, cueing, rushing to get up to raise the arm at the end, etc. does not appeal to me much at all. The same or similar for you?

That local dealer is trying to make a living by exploiting the fetishes of people who suffer from Audio Nirvana Nervosa. You shouldn't do business with him, especially if you tend to suffer from that syndrome . And why would anyone want to do business with someone whose sales methods involve "an onslaught of vitriol" ?

I'm surprised vinyl sounds as good as it sometimes does, but the truth is that vinyl does no justice to playing recorded music. I feel much the same about vacuum tubes.

I stopped going to audio shops over 14 years ago. And those that I had gone to are all out of business now. No audio shops today carry what I consider good really speakers. But the internet does.

 

[Ears to you]

That local dealer is trying to make a living by exploiting the fetishes of people who suffer from Audio Nirvana Nervosa. You shouldn't do business with him, especially if you tend to suffer from that syndrome . And why would anyone want to do business with someone whose sales methods involve "an onslaught of vitriol" ?

I'm surprised vinyl sounds as good as it sometimes does, but the truth is that vinyl does no justice to playing recorded music. I feel much the same about vacuum tubes.

I stopped going to audio shops over 14 years ago. And those that I had gone to are all out of business now. No audio shops today carry what I consider good really speakers. But the internet does.

"Onslaught of vitriol" was perhaps my overuse of literary license. Abject disbelief, subtle derision, and incredulity perhaps better capture the tone of their responses, along with their Nostradamus-like prophecy that I, like everyone else before who has abandoned vinyl, would regret it. It's the same response I get when say that I am perfectly satisfied with listening to CDs at 16/44 resolution, as opposed to being willing to buy $25 hi-res downloads. Like you, I ordinarily stay away from these shops, except for accessories and to jog my audio senses a bit. I have found that higher end audio salespeople these days do not listen to customers much, if at all. They seem to prefer to pontificate about absolutisms in audio, that they alone are privy to, and like you had said, it is their goal to sell products while convincing us that we NEED them.

I am usually pretty good about keeping Audio Nirvana Nervosa at bay, but I do have to admit that I was surprisingly quite impressed by an all Naim separates system I heard a few months ago in a laid-back shop in Seattle, without all the East Coast pressure and arrogance of our audio shops here around NYC. The speakers were older, used, lower priced Naim ones, but the sound really was magnificent. Not that I ever would ever (or could) afford to put together a system that costs as much or more than a luxury sedan, but I do find it fascinating what the state of the art is in certain showrooms and at the annual audio show we have in New York. At the end of the day though, I am perfectly happy to enjoy the actual music, not the system, in my apartment!

 

[Swerd]

It's interesting to read your experiences and observations about audio dealers. I haven't missed them at all.

About 14 years ago, I got re-interested in audio after years of working at a career, raising kids, and just about anything else. The high-pressure brow-beating attitude of audio shops really surprised me, as did the willingness of their customers to take that kind of abuse.

About 10 years ago, I got interested in DIY speaker building because I wanted to understand what could make speakers sound good. It was a fun learning curve, and I got to meet people such as Dennis Murphy.

One of the early take-away lessons I learned was how important a speaker's crossover could be. Average or even mediocre drivers could be made to sound very good with a properly designed crossover. And, that many commercially sold speakers had poorly designed crossovers.

Interestingly, none of the DIY speaker builders I met had anything to say about amplifiers, preamps, or cables. They were agnostics on those subjects.

One of them (who worked for the Federal Trade Commission), when asked why the FTC never pursued the makers of exotic cables and crossover parts, said "We don't go there… and you shouldn't either".

Words to live by .

 

[Ears to you]

It's interesting to read your experiences and observations about audio dealers. I haven't missed them at all.

About 14 years ago, I got re-interested in audio after years of working at a career, raising kids, and just about anything else. The high-pressure brow-beating attitude of audio shops really surprised me, as did the willingness of their customers to take that kind of abuse.

About 10 years ago, I got interested in DIY speaker building because I wanted to understand what could make speakers sound good. It was a fun learning curve, and I got to meet people such as Dennis Murphy.

One of the early take-away lessons I learned was how important a speaker's crossover could be. Average or even mediocre drivers could be made to sound very good with a properly designed crossover. And, that many commercially sold speakers had poorly designed crossovers.

Interestingly, none of the DIY speaker builders I met had anything to say about amplifiers, preamps, or cables. They were agnostics on those subjects.

One of them (who worked for the Federal Trade Commission), when asked why the FTC never pursued the makers of exotic cables and crossover parts, said "We don't go there… and you shouldn't either".

Words to live by .

Wow - great to hear that I am not alone in my aversion to audio mythology! As a psychotherapist and practicing Buddhist meditator, I am always striving to separate truth from illusion, and in audio, it is an unfortunate necessity based on the nature of the business. In line with what you said about the FTC guy's take on cables and esoterica, Alan Shaw, the owner of Harbeth Speakers, feels the same way (past agnostically - actually atheistically) about different amps and cables with his carefully crafted speakers, and he continually says this very firmly and often on various audio forums, including the Harbeth one! Have you seen his written challenge to listeners to distinguish between various amps powering his speakers?

Alan Shaw throws down the gauntlet(Harbeth). "golden eared audiophiles" filibuster fearing that their myth will be destroyed. | Stereophile.com

I really do appreciate hearing your practical views on audio, as I am constantly trying to glean kernels of observable truth and insight about this stuff. Even though I do see the cult of Naim effects in their followers, I do have to admit that replacing older NAD gear and a Denon AVR with the Naim integrated, and then adding the power supply were both significant, easily audible improvements, or I would have happily put the pieces back on eBay or Audiogon if they didn't bring a lot to the party.

The interesting thing is that the high end audio shops here seem to have that same East Coast boutique snobbery of any high end products - whether it's designer clothing, shoes, cars, etc. In Seattle, where my family lives, they (almost all retailers) are easygoing about almost everything, and this also carries over in most shops to audio, even though there are a couple of shops and salesmen that deal with the various Microsoft millionaires and their type that could easily be transplanted to NY, but they are luckily the minority!

I do hear what you are saying loud and clear about the importance of the crossover. As the CM5s generally seem to be seen as over-priced mass market products, aside from price, are their crossovers also lacking? I ask because they do seem to give me a pretty decent sound for the specifics of my space, and even my neighbor who owns a company selling and installing mega-buck AV systems in the wealthier areas around here though that they sounded pretty good, but then he is a firm believer in the value of establishing the best source that you can first, and the speakers are for him the last aspect for improvement. Once again, your thoughts on this would be welcome to me. I have only my ears to go by, and not the tech background to know the "why" of something sounding good.

 

[cornelius]

One of them (who worked for the Federal Trade Commission), when asked why the FTC never pursued the makers of exotic cables and crossover parts, said "We don't go there… and you shouldn't either".

Words to live by .

LOL

Ears to you - I have a pair of Harbeths so I've been to Alan's site many times. It's been a real eye-opener to hear what he has to say, as he uses science and a bit of psychology for his arguments. He has numerous examples posted, as to how unreliable our senses can be, and describes a better way to compare components. I'm thankful for his contributions - saves me a lot of money and confusion...

I strongly disagree with people who say that the source is most important, speakers last. I've found over the years, that it's the opposite. Retailers will all say this, it's a great way to keep customers coming back for more.