Infinity Kappa 80 crossover

[frisqo]

Hi guys my name is francisco and im new here in audioholics furom (from sweden).
i just started to build my system and started with a XTZ class A amp, XTZ AP100 power amp, rega PR3 and some Infinity kappa 80
I'm upgrading my Infinity kappa 80, thinking maybe it will give me better sound :/ or will it?
Need some help!!
What advice wold you give me, I'm thinking of upgrading my crossovers with high end components. But could I maybe change any of its components value if I maybe want more midrange sound ??
Or would the high end components give me more and better midrange sound without changing the values ??

hifikit(dot)se is selling me mundorf and jantzen components. maybe you could advice me of a better page with other and better brand, or maybe the mundorf are good for my kappa 80??. has anyone any experience of changing the crossovers on the kappa 80??... any store specialized on the infinity crossover or speakers??

Thank for all the help guys!!!!!

 

[j_garcia]

Contact Dennis at Philharmonic. He can probably help you do what you want to do:

http://philharmonicaudio.com/

 

[Swerd]

Hi and welcome to Audioholics.

I'm upgrading my Infinity kappa 80, thinking maybe it will give me better sound :/ or will it? Need some help!!
What advice wold you give me, I'm thinking of upgrading my crossovers with high end components. But could I maybe change any of its components value if I maybe want more midrange sound ??
Or would the high end components give me more and better midrange sound without changing the values ??

hifikit(dot)se is selling me mundorf and jantzen components. maybe you could advice me of a better page with other and better brand, or maybe the mundorf are good for my kappa 80??. has anyone any experience of changing the crossovers on the kappa 80??... any store specialized on the infinity crossover or speakers??

Rebuilding the crossover with different (more expensive) components of the same values as the original crossover will not affect the sound of your speakers. You may have read accounts of improved sound from efforts like this, but these so-called high end components (capacitors, inductors, or resistors) cannot make that kind of difference.

You should not change any component values from the original design, without first measuring the performance of the speaker, both as a whole, and as individual unfiltered drivers (woofers, mid range and tweeter). After that, these measurements might provide the basis of a newly designed crossover. But it also might show that the original design was good. Dennis Murphy, as suggested above by j_garcia, can do this, but you would have to ship one of your speakers from Sweden to him in the USA.

It's possible that some one else may have already done this work, but I am unaware of it.

 

[j_garcia]

If you give him the values, Dennis might be able to help, but really to do this it IS something that is sort of trial and error with a critical ear (to listen for and measure the changes). I've had different experiences with upgrading components as well - one set of speakers I had two sets and I could immediately go back and forth between them to hear the difference. My current speakers I upgraded and the difference is relatively minimal. Ultimately, if you're looking for improved sound that usually means a different speaker that meets those needs rather than trying to make the speakers you have the way you want.

 

[frisqo]

then the difference between cheap components and expensive ones aren't that much in sound quality? so if i put components with the same
values but better ones the difference will be very very very small? ... or did i get this wrong??..


thanx for the help.. im quiet the newbie at this

are the values in this pic??

 

[j_garcia]

There's no guarantee that upgrading to better components with the same vaules will result in a better sounding speaker. With my first DIY upgrade, the upgrade was sold by the original designer of the speaker. It was new version of the same tweeters and a tweaked crossover too match up with it, but basically replaced the whole x-over. They were smoother and more detailed than previous, but the tweeter was softer as well.

With the most recent project, I only replaced the caps not the inductor, and I didn't notice much difference. So it sort of depends on how deep you want to get into tweaking the speaker.

 

[frisqo]

There's no guarantee that upgrading to better components with the same vaules will result in a better sounding speaker. With my first DIY upgrade, the upgrade was sold by the original designer of the speaker. It was new version of the same tweeters and a tweaked crossover too match up with it, but basically replaced the whole x-over. They were smoother and more detailed than previous, but the tweeter was softer as well.

With the most recent project, I only replaced the caps not the inductor, and I didn't notice much difference. So it sort of depends on how deep you want to get into tweaking the speaker.

hmmm
well i "had" an idea of building/buying new crossovers like the one they already have on but with better "high end" components but i don´t know anymore if its worth the money.

i thought that better components would give better quality sound .... hmmm if not why do they build crossover with this so called hi end components if it doesn't make that much difference

now I'm confused

 

[j_garcia]

It may make a difference in every speaker, but depending on the speaker it may very well not make enough of a difference to justify it, is what I'm saying. Usually when people do a crossover upgrade it is not simply to change the components, but to actually alter the speaker's response to produce a better sound. That's a very different prospect.

Let's step back one level: what exactly is it that you would like to improve? Mids are muffled or unclear? Without an actual change to the x-over, that won't change.

 

[frisqo]

It may make a difference in every speaker, but depending on the speaker it may very well not make enough of a difference to justify it, is what I'm saying. Usually when people do a crossover upgrade it is not simply to change the components, but to actually alter the speaker's response to produce a better sound. That's a very different prospect.

Let's step back one level: what exactly is it that you would like to improve? Mids are muffled or unclear? Without an actual change to the x-over, that won't change.

gracias garcia.

well i find the mid muffled and thought that if i change the crossovers it would give me a more "clear" sound ..

I'm very happy with my speakers bass plays great and tweeter sound too, but it's the midrange that I think that it could have been higher volume on ....

 

[TLS Guy]

hmmm
well i "had" an idea of building/buying new crossovers like the one they already have on but with better "high end" components but i don´t know anymore if its worth the money.

i thought that better components would give better quality sound .... hmmm if not why do they build crossover with this so called hi end components if it doesn't make that much difference

now I'm confused

In general you get no benefit rebuilding crossovers. However there are exceptions. I note that C2, C4 and C5 have very high values.
So there will be electrolytic types which change value over time. I would replace these with high quality types. I would also use a small value polypropylene cap to bypass the, in other words put them in parallel.

Any other caps of lower value, that are electrolytic I would replace with a poly cap.

I would not change any inductors, as the resistance of the wire is taken into consideration in the design. If you do make sure the DC resistance is a close approximation to the original. The inductors that are high value L3 , L4 and L5 might I suppose be miserable ones with small iron cores. They are marked on the circuit to be iron cored. There may be merit it using inductors with high quality low saturation cores.

This circuit illustrates the problem with a lot of three ways. You end up with high value components. The fact is in these types of speakers the passive crossover ends up being the barrier to excellence.

Now you can replace all those caps with polypropylene types and and replace all those inductors with air cored ones. When I design a three way this is how I do it. I do not use electrolytic caps and do not put iron cored inductors in the signal path.

This is a very expensive approach. Whether the cost is justified for those speakers is hard to say.

 

[Swerd]

then the difference between cheap components and expensive ones aren't that much in sound quality? so if i put components with the same
values but better ones the difference will be very very very small? ... or did i get this wrong??..

Yes, that is correct. If the mid range sound is not good, it is more likely that the mid range driver is not very good. Changing the crossover is not likely to help.

As TLS Guy pointed out, the inductors (large coils of copper wire) in this design are large. Air core inductors of the sizes for L3, L4, or L5 will require a long length of copper wire. That will be expensive. Iron core inductors use much less wire, and will cost less. Iron core inductors introduce a problem because of the higher hysteresis (an electrical property of magnets). However, the use of these iron core inductors may or may not create an audible difference when used in speaker crossovers. This is unknown until it is tested in a speaker. Few people have tested this, but many debate it. It is certain that iron core inductors cost less than the equivalent air core inductor, but it is not certain that air core inductors always perform better.

The capacitors in this crossover are also large (C4, C5, C2, and C3). Electrolytic type capacitors of these sizes will be inexpensive. Metalized polypropylene type capacitors of these sizes will be expensive. Some Mundorf capacitors will be even more expensive. Mundorf caps made with silver foil and liquid oil insulators (instead of plastic film) will be extremely expensive. There is also a debate about the effect of different types of capacitors in audio crossovers. But unlike the debate about iron core vs. air core inductors, I am convinced that using different types of capacitors (with the same capacitance values) in audio crossovers will make no audible difference.

thanx for the help.. im quiet the newbie at this

are the values in this pic??

If you are a newbie at this, you will probably have a difficult time building a new crossover with new components. New components will not be the same size as the ones, and they may not fit on the original board in your Infinity speakers.

Here are the values shown in the picture you posted.

Woofer (two HT210IY6) circuit
L4 Iron core inductor 4.7 mH (milli Henry)
C4 Capacitor 150 µF (micro Farad)
R4 Resistor 0.47 Ω (ohms) (5 watt)
L5 Iron core inductor 3.3 mH
C5 Capacitor 56 µF
R5 Resistor 1.2 Ω (5 watt)

Mid range (M11MG-09-04) circuit
C2 Capacitor 100 µF
L2 Air core inductor 0.15 mH
R2 Resistor 1.0 Ω (5 watt)
L3 Iron core inductor 1.2 mH
R3 Resistor 0.68 Ω (5 watt)
C3 Capacitor 22 µF

Tweeter (EMIT-R) circuit
CB1 Circuit breaker 1.25 A (ampere)
R1 Resistor 0.47 Ω (5 watt)
C1 Capacitor 5.6 µF
L1 Air core inductor 0.15 mH

 

[frisqo]

Yes, that is correct. If the mid range sound is not good, it is more likely that the mid range driver is not very good. Changing the crossover is not likely to help.

As TLS Guy pointed out, the inductors (large coils of copper wire) in this design are large. Air core inductors of the sizes for L3, L4, or L5 will require a long length of copper wire. That will be expensive. Iron core inductors use much less wire, and will cost less. Iron core inductors introduce a problem because of the higher hysteresis (an electrical property of magnets). However, the use of these iron core inductors may or may not create an audible difference when used in speaker crossovers. This is unknown until it is tested in a speaker. Few people have tested this, but many debate it. It is certain that iron core inductors cost less than the equivalent air core inductor, but it is not certain that air core inductors always perform better.

The capacitors in this crossover are also large (C4, C5, C2, and C3). Electrolytic type capacitors of these sizes will be inexpensive. Metalized polypropylene type capacitors of these sizes will be expensive. Some Mundorf capacitors will be even more expensive. Mundorf caps made with silver foil and liquid oil insulators (instead of plastic film) will be extremely expensive. There is also a debate about the effect of different types of capacitors in audio crossovers. But unlike the debate about iron core vs. air core inductors, I am convinced that using different types of capacitors (with the same capacitance values) in audio crossovers will make no audible difference.

If you are a newbie at this, you will probably have a difficult time building a new crossover with new components. New components will not be the same size as the ones, and they may not fit on the original board in your Infinity speakers.

Here are the values shown in the picture you posted.

Woofer (two HT210IY6) circuit
L4 Iron core inductor 4.7 mH (milli Henry)
C4 Capacitor 150 µF (micro Farad)
R4 Resistor 0.47 Ω (ohms) (5 watt)
L5 Iron core inductor 3.3 mH
C5 Capacitor 56 µF
R5 Resistor 1.2 Ω (5 watt)

Mid range (M11MG-09-04) circuit
C2 Capacitor 100 µF
L2 Air core inductor 0.15 mH
R2 Resistor 1.0 Ω (5 watt)
L3 Iron core inductor 1.2 mH
R3 Resistor 0.68 Ω (5 watt)
C3 Capacitor 22 µF

Tweeter (EMIT-R) circuit
CB1 Circuit breaker 1.25 A (ampere)
R1 Resistor 0.47 Ω (5 watt)
C1 Capacitor 5.6 µF
L1 Air core inductor 0.15 mH

Well ill just buy a pair of kappa 9.2i instead


thank you so much guys!!! You have saved me a lot of money that I would have thrown in the lake if it were not for your.
A Swedish company said it could build a pair of crossovers to my kappa 80 (without making any measurements on the speaker drivers) just make new crossover just like the old ones but with Mundorf components and i would have cost me 500-540 usd...


I am very grateful i found you guys..

best regards francisco

 

[frisqo]

this is his words about the result i would have got

"To translate into words how great the sound difference it will be difficult, but it can be said is that you will get a more transparent and dynamic sound, a more
Live audio and a broader perspective on the overall sound."

 

[Swerd]

Well ill just buy a pair of kappa 9.2i instead

thank you so much guys!!! You have saved me a lot of money that I would have thrown in the lake if it were not for your.
A Swedish company said it could build a pair of crossovers to my kappa 80 (without making any measurements on the speaker drivers) just make new crossover just like the old ones but with Mundorf components and i would have cost me 500-540 usd...

best regards francisco

You're welcome.

500-540 US dollars! That's a lot of money for crossovers. What did your Infinity Kappa 80s cost?

 

[Swerd]

this is his words about the result i would have got

"To translate into words how great the sound difference it will be difficult, but it can be said is that you will get a more transparent and dynamic sound, a more Live audio and a broader perspective on the overall sound."

Yes, it can be said… but it wouldn't be true.

It could also be said that the people selling those $500 crossovers are thieves.

 

[frisqo]

You're welcome.

500-540 US dollars! That's a lot of money for crossovers. What did your Infinity Kappa 80s cost?

i paid 540usd .. mint condition
maybe ill just buy a equalizer. but would it affect the sound quality?
read that using "spikes" could
also affect the sound coming from your speakers, is this true?

 

[frisqo]

Yes, it can be said… but it wouldn't be true.

It could also be said that the people selling those $500 crossovers are thieves.

yep wrote to him and send him a link of a guy in denmark that build speakers and crossovers but he measures the values of the speakers cabinet and the elements before he build NEW crossovers and he says that its the only way to build new crossover for a speaker. (jbl43.com has use his crossover on a pair of jbl l100 i think)

after that mail he told me that he could not do the job for me..

 

[Swerd]

i paid 540usd .. mint condition
maybe ill just buy a equalizer. but would it affect the sound quality?
read that using "spikes" could also affect the sound coming from your speakers, is this true?

An equalizer might help improve the sound quality, but without the ability to measure the frequency response of your speakers, it is also true that an equalizer might degrade a speaker's sound. I would avoid spending money on an equalizer. Modern audio electronic manufacturers have stopped building older style equalizers. Instead they use automated digital sound correction software, such as Audyssey.

Spikes can't hurt a speakers sound. Don't pay a lot of money for them. Are the speakers on a hard floor or a carpet? Spikes are said to help with a carpet, but I doubt if you will hear any difference.

 

[Swerd]

yep wrote to him and send him a link of a guy in denmark that build speakers and crossovers but he measures the values of the speakers cabinet and the elements before he build NEW crossovers and he says that its the only way to build new crossover for a speaker. (jbl43.com has use his crossover on a pair of jbl l100 i think)

after that mail he told me that he could not do the job for me..

That guy in Denmark, is he Troels Gravesen? I'm familiar with his website, but I've never heard a speaker he designed. He seems to understand speaker design, and he writes very well about it.

I would believe what he says.

 

[frisqo]

That guy in Denmark, is he Troels Gravesen? I'm familiar with his website, but I've never heard a speaker he designed. He seems to understand speaker design, and he writes very well about it.

I would believe what he says.

yes its him