In-Ceiling Speakers

[Destreyf]

I'd like to note as well, this home exceeds 3000 sq ft excluding garage, the floor plan makes it look smaller, but in reality its quite a bit bigger than it looks.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I wouldn't do more than a pair of speakers in each room.

The family room should be setup as an audio/video zone with a surround receiver, not a stereo zone. 5.1 or 7.1 at the most. The room is NOT ideal for surround sound, so perhaps even 3.1 may be best.

Stereo speakers in the kitchen to match the left/right of the family room and the ability to play back the same TV shows.

Stereo in the dining room and living room. Two speakers per room.

Depends on what you are doing in the bedroom, but we went stereo, with speakers flaking the TV on either side.

All our bedroom are the same with stereo speakers flanking the TV location.

The speakers I linked to will provide ear bleeding levels of audio just fine. You do NOT need more speakers in these rooms.

Secondary rooms, such as bathrooms or laundry rooms can use a single stereo speaker to fill the space nicely.

Using more than a stereo channel of any amplifier is really not appropriate in these spaces based upon your home size. For reference, my home is about 4,000 square feet on the main two levels so I'm familiar with how this sounds after it is setup using the speakers I've recommended.

As for whether you get your money out of this type of setup or not is not really a question. You get whatever value you get from your use of it. We certainly didn't use the speakers that often in rooms that we didn't use, but I LOVED having speakers in the garage and outdoors when I was doing yard work or working on the car. I liked having them throughout the house when I went through on cleaning days or during parties.

As for reliability - in the 7 years (!!!) that I owned my last home, I had ZERO issues. No amplifier failure, no keypad failure, no panel failure, no component failure. If Russound has amp reliability issues then avoid them. Sonance, Speakercraft, and Niles all make very reliable long term use amplifiers. Keep an eye on eBay as I know the 12 channel, 30 watt per channel amps show up for under $500 quite often.

A couple are up there now...
Sonance Sonamp 1230 - 12 Channel 6 Rooms or Zones with Multiple Configurations | eBay

It is very important, that you pick a VERY well ventilated area for this equipment as heat will devestate amps and other gear quickly if it is sitting in a closet somewhere.

 

[Destreyf]

I currently have bids in on 2 Niles 1230 amps (these look VERY similar) do you recommend going that route, or should i withdraw my bids?

AMP1

AMP2

Both are listed as working.

I agree with the speaker setup, i was looking a little overboard, so going down on that lightens my cost significantly!!! I have a friend who's done a lot with ceiling speakers, he's going to get me a list of recommended ones, he claimed to have a bad experience with some of the monoprice speakers but he doesn't have the models for them, so maybe a faulty set? I hope you understand how valuable your input is to someone like me, its made a huge difference in perspective.

 

[ImcLoud]

I'd like to note as well, this home exceeds 3000 sq ft excluding garage, the floor plan makes it look smaller, but in reality its quite a bit bigger than it looks.

As soon as I looked at the house I figured it at $3200sq feet, a $425K-$505K build but Im thinking tray ceilings, sunken parlor, no carpet {all tile and HW}, crown, chair, and base in all common areas, Open stair case with 3" spaced spins, 2-2ton and 1-3 ton first company air handlers, with a Buderus gas fired boiler {probably X series} 2 Rinnai units, Granite kitchen, ect...

You are definitely going to have a nice house when your done, and with this economy you can get contractors to work practically for free... My house is around $4000 sq feet and I only have 6 sets of stereo inside and 6 out, and we have four porches...
I hate to see you spend so much and then see how little you use it... Like I said, mine is used for cleaning, parties, and thats pretty much it...

 

[BMXTRIX]

I currently have bids in on 2 Niles 1230 amps (these look VERY similar) do you recommend going that route, or should i withdraw my bids?

AMP1

AMP2

Both are listed as working.

I agree with the speaker setup, i was looking a little overboard, so going down on that lightens my cost significantly!!! I have a friend who's done a lot with ceiling speakers, he's going to get me a list of recommended ones, he claimed to have a bad experience with some of the monoprice speakers but he doesn't have the models for them, so maybe a faulty set? I hope you understand how valuable your input is to someone like me, its made a huge difference in perspective.

The Niles amplifiers are excellent. Similar to Sonance, they haven't changed the design of their amps in years. Sonance's 1230 dates back to at least 2003 in its design. Just a very robust and well designed amplifier that hasn't changed in years. Niles is very similar and if they changed from their 1200 to the 1230, it was just to fix minor design flaws in the older model.

One of the things I would recommend if the house is under design/early construction...

WIRE!

It's great to think of the speakers now, and the final components. You have MONTHS to get a lot of this stuff, and it is worth waiting for deals to come up, but when the walls are in place and before sheetrock goes up, that is when you wire, and you want to very seriously look at what you want now, and what you want ten years from now.

You may also want to consider whether or not you may want to go with a head end (equipment closet) and go with video distribution out to the rooms or not. That may allow for zero equipment impact into any of the spaces.

The general concept of running extra 'future' cables is a good one to have. A roll of 1,000' of CAT-5 is under 100 bucks. So, to run several pieces of cat-5 just in case you want to run video to/from a location at some point in the future can be very inexpensive. Under $50.

For my home, I am doing both audio and video distribution. So, besides the 16+ stereo speaker zones, I also have about half a dozen video zones. Four bedrooms, a playroom, and the family room. I do component video distribution at this time, but I can switch it to HDMI in the future if I wanted to. Not really a price saver on this, more about aesthetics and allowing every room to have full access to any source they want.

Anyway, the wiring is the key, and adding basement to attic conduit, and conduit down 'key' walls is really important to allow for future capabilities.

I would also make a point to have cat-5 for networking at each television location as well as any equipment locations and in all key rooms where a PC may be. While wireless is typically very good these days, it can start getting spotty, especially when people start streaming a lot of data and having a dozen or more wireless devices on at once in the home.

 

[bmf795]

If it was my house, I would do
4 out side {patio and porch}
2-dining
2-kitchen
2- near the entry way to have sound through that hall and stairway
2-in stairway for upstairs hall
thats 12 put them all on a imped matching box and power with one source one 2 channel amp...

Would you consider using the Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier 300-812 for this application? In my situation I have six volume controls for 10 speakers(two controls run l/r stereo speakers) and at most would only have 4 zones running at once.

 

[ACsGreens]

General Advice

I do a lot of plans for new construction where budget, sound, and ease of use are priorties in that order. I love the idea of using a large amp (12ch), 2 if needed, and using a source such as Sonos to control everything. If you would like independant source control in a room/area, add another Sonos connect. I am not a big fan us using a distribution system that relies on cat5/6 to each location then speaker wire. This hamstrings you, generally, for further expansion and options later. Most people, if using in-ceiling speakers are not looking for the highest quality of sound, but can still get a good, nice sounding experience. Speakercraft makes some really nice options, and all hve a lifetime warrenty (+1), but there are a lot of good options out there. Just my 2c, assuming the penny has any value anymore.

AC

 

[Destreyf]

@ACsGreens Pennies are a symbol that represents 1 cent, but the copper they're made out of is worth far more than that

@bmf795 I have thought about using a seperate amp for the larger zone, it depends on the setup of course, Imc has alot of good info, but please don't hi-jack my thread

@ImcLoud The house won't be in that price range, while the house will be nice, i'm doing alot of upgrades after the fact as i have connections to getting them in, once i have the money available, but wiring i'm going to get done ASAP, going to be running 2 coax to each wall in each room, and 1 cat5+rj45 female to each wall in every bedroom, then 4 to each family room "TV" walls and 4 to the Living Room (Den) for future support, i'm also wiring Cat5/Coax to the outside where a dish would be mounted

I work for an ISP/Dish Retailer so i see alot of things most people don't normally notice.

@BMXTRIX

I am interested in a video headend, though i think its too much money to invest for me, even on the wiring right now, i'm doing CAT6 to each of my jacks, so that i can push full 10/100/1000 (cat5 realistically maxes at 350 even on gigabit)

On the note of WiFi i'm going to be using a commercial transmitter inside the home, BUT i am not a personal fan of wifi, its a straight up nightmare if you ask me i enjoy hard wire everywhere, even where i set my laptop (both at work and home) has an Ethernet cable available, even though its not the most elegant solution, it fixes the problem named WiFi.

I have to get all my wire ordered now, so that in 2-3 weeks when the framing is done, i can get the prewire in before they get too far along.

Do you recommend 16 gauge or 14 gauge, i'm also thinking of running the 4 pair wire instead of 2 pair, any recommendations on that? I know speakers/amps/controllers are less important than the initial wiring which is why i'm trying to get an idea of the end product, i've got a pretty solid idea now on how i'm going to run everything.

 

[ImcLoud]

Would you consider using the Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier 300-812 for this application? In my situation I have six volume controls for 10 speakers(two controls run l/r stereo speakers) and at most would only have 4 zones running at once.

I would run them off the dayton amp for sure, You will need imped matching somewhere so if your volume controls dont have it than you will need a distribution box like the one from monoprice...
I prefer doing it this way because it simplifies everything, run a set of stereo speaker wires from your amp {that can be rite in your home theater rack, near your tv, in an upstairs closet, ect} to the distribution box, then run the wires up to the volume control and on to their speakers... Really easy... and not a lot to break...
Now, you will only have around 20w per speaker, but I would be surprised if you use more than 10, When I had the Dayton powering my system, I could easily make all the speakers screaming loud at the same time... Figure the stock car radio in most cars is 40 watts total.... Most multi room systems are just for ambiance, no serious audiophile listening and no headbanging out of control high volume listening... I would imagine it would be a pain in the arse to have it cranke d in all the rooms, I would have to run around the house lowering all the zones when the phone rings...

 

[ImcLoud]

I have hard wired ethernets in every room, {2 in the master and 2 in the larger living rooms} and I would rather just use the wireless, we bought a really nice router and it made all the difference, in my home theater we use the PS3 to watch netflix movies, while the kids are playing video games, and me and the wife are on our laptops, and my foreman is in the office logging in the weekly time cards, and never had a problem with internet speed...
I wish I did not spend all that money on cat cable when we built this place, it was such a waste now that the routers are so reliable... A few years back they were terrible, now I cant complain... Plus they dont have any nice coveres for the outlets, so Im stuck with them ugly plastic things, while the rest of the outlets are bronze and milled aluminum...

 

[96cobra10101]

Thought I would chime in.

I have 3 of the Dayton amp's (APA150) powering a set each of the Yamaha (NS480C) ceiling speakers though Monoprice stereo volume controls. (Kitchen, library, and master bath)
I also have 2 more pairs of the Yamaha's running as surround side and back off of my Yamaha receiver. (We'll call it wife's living room)
I can't complain about any parts I used. The Dayton's are nice and heavy and pretty powerful for a low priced amp, and turn on as soon a signal is sent through them. The volume control is a nice feature, but I have mine turned to max.
The Monoprice volume controls are also well built and and easy to install. They are pretty much the same as Bogen's, but came with a couple different faceplate and knob colors.
The Yamaha's sound awesome for their price, about $120 a pair and handle the Dayton's with no problems. They are lacking in the bottom end, but nothing a budget sub couldn't fix. The high's and mids are very crisp and clear and are a enjoyable to listen to. Good luck and have fun.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I am interested in a video headend, though i think its too much money to invest for me, even on the wiring right now, i'm doing CAT6 to each of my jacks, so that i can push full 10/100/1000 (cat5 realistically maxes at 350 even on gigabit)

I actually do HD video distribution over component video cabling. I ran mini-high-resolution cable throughout my home to the display locations and I bought a 12x8 component video switch on eBay for a few hundred dollars. The cabling was far more expensive than the switcher was...

This one, for example, will handle up to 8 different component video HD sources with digital coaxial audio, and send it to four rooms...

Extron Crosspoint Switcher with Cables | eBay

For $300 you can get a 12x8 version...
Extron Electronics Crosspoint Series Matrix Switch 128 HV 12x8 RGBHV 30 Day DOA | eBay

You can pick up mini-HR cable on eBay as well...

1000 ft LIBERTY EXTRON RGBHV VGA bulk MHR cable PLENUM CL2P 5-way mini coax BO | eBay

There are many pieces at 100', and you can use cat-5/6 baluns for component video to just use the cat-5/6 which will already be in place.

So, about $1,000 or so to put in HD video distribution over component.

For HDMI, you would want HDMI over cat-5/6 converters. HD Base-T is a great way to go as this will go 328' over one piece of cat-5. It is NOT a networking standard... it replaces a long and unreliable HDMI cable in favor of a solid conversion system. Pretty cool.

On the note of WiFi i'm going to be using a commercial transmitter inside the home, BUT i am not a personal fan of wifi, its a straight up nightmare if you ask me i enjoy hard wire everywhere, even where i set my laptop (both at work and home) has an Ethernet cable available, even though its not the most elegant solution, it fixes the problem named WiFi.

I have no real preference, but wi-fi is certainly more subject to interference and failures while wired networks tend to hold more speed and be faster. With the potential for in-the-home streaming of HD video, you may find this to be one of the best decisions you make. I personally have about 15TB of movies on hard drives and play them back over my GB network without issue in a couple of different locations at once. So far, so good!

Do you recommend 16 gauge or 14 gauge, i'm also thinking of running the 4 pair wire instead of 2 pair, any recommendations on that?

I would get 14/4 wiring, and run it to where you want both sets of speakers. Make a loop at the first speaker, and then run it to the second location. Make sure to mark on the cable which direction the amplifier is! Otherwise you could hook the speaker up to the wrong end of the cable.

"Why does this darn speaker not work???"
(2 hours later)...
"DOH!"
(2 Minutes later, after hooking it up to the amp properly)...
"That sounds good."

 

[Destreyf]

Thank you for the advice on the speaker wire, i am getting pricing through my work on Monday, they do CAT5/6, RG6, and Speaker/Intercom systems for schools, so they get wire pretty cheap, I've also got some online stores that I'm looking at as well, unfortunately I'm out of decision time, as they are almost half the way done framing the house, in only 2 days, and they should have the rest of the framing done by Friday at the latest. So my prewire is coming up sooner than i had thought!

I also have a large media collection (9TB) that i watch throughout the house using Plex and several Roku's (Awesome little devices btw) which is why data prewire is such a big concern, and why WiFi isn't really an option for me.

I also work for an ISP i play with 10-20 routers A DAY, and for what its worth, WiFi isn't worth the trouble, its a small town here, BUT it seems like everyone and their dogs (including lower end WISPS) are using 2.4 and the 5ghz Wireless-N frequencies, causing all sorts of Chaos (reason #2 for hardwired) And even if the locals and the WISPS didn't cause problems, most residential grade routers die due to sheer PPS (Packets per second) that go through my household. Though this is an Audio Forum, not a Router forum, so I'll leave it at that.

I won my first of the 12 channel Niles amps, at $455 shipped,
the second i should know within 18 hours (about 7pm MST) the bid is currently at $375 with $25 shipping i max bid $450 (its $475 shipped)

Both amps say they're working, i have some ceiling speakers at my work (from a job they were doing a year or so ago) that i will be testing the amp(s) with to make sure they are fully functional, can you think of any suggestions for testing/loading the amp (i only have 2 speakers soooo)

 

[BMXTRIX]

Those amps typically work or dont' work across the channels. So, you should put a stereo speaker pair of any sort on the amp and just run test through all the channels to make sure that none of them are blown. You should not have issues with any of them not working or producing distortion. When I've seen issues with amps it is most often that the entire amp channel does not work. If all the amp channels work, then the entire amp typically runs well for a long time.

Most often, low voltage is run after the electricians run the high voltage, which is run AFTER plumbing and HVAC is installed. So, framing, HVAC, and plumbing, then electrical, then low voltage. You may have a fair bit more time then you expect on this.

Framing takes just a few days on many homes, but the rest can take quite a bit longer, so I would check with the foreman on the job and see what his time schedule is to electrical being done and low voltage being ready to start.

Don't forget to put power everywhere you need it!

 

[ImcLoud]

I agree with BMX,
Are you running the LV stuff yourself?
You should have plenty of time, I get the houses weather tight before doing anything inside..
If I was doing your house {stick built}, We would have it framed, boarded and roofed in 5 days, then sided with external doors and windows in another 3 days {depending on your siding, I sub out my stone work {but do all wood, hardy and vinyl my self}...

Customers get all excited when they see their house go up in a week, but I always tell them, "dont think its just another week and you will be getting your CO", now starts the painfull part... I give my guys 4 days off after the first hell week, then income the subs Plumbing and heating first {I sub plumbing, and do all heating/AC myself}, then electrician {Subbed}, then insulation {only sub if they are spraying}, then plaster and floors, then cabinets and fixtures, then trim and doors, then paint and inspect before the moving trucks come in... Although they passed a code here that all properties must have "finished" landscaping and driveways prior to issue of CO... So that gets thrown in there too at some point... Before they let you handle that when ever you wanted...

So you will have plenty of time, remember nail plates are important, and mark your print where you ran your wires {this can be very helpfull}...

Are you doing central vac, if so Vacdepot has the ecv5500 power units on sale for $370, I bought 8 of them because I sell central vac systems all the time {cant remember the last house I built with out it}...