Impedance matching for bi-amped speakers.

J

Joe Abbott

Audiophyte
I have a speaker system that is essentially equivalent to the old JBL Olympus system, that is, 6 cubic foot enclosures with JBL LE15 woofers and JBL mid/upper horn drivers. These are driven through a JBL Crossover network (5234A) which in turn is connected to a 500 watt Haffler amp for the woofer and a smaller conventional (Yamaha) amp for the horns. The LE15's have 16 ohms impedance, while the horns are 8 ohm. The LE15's are directly connected to the amp, but years ago a "sound guy" said I had to use an impedance-matching network for the horns, which he designed and I built. It all seems to work, but lately, (and here's the question) I've been wondering why I need to worry about impedance matching for 2 speakers that are driven by separate amplifiers. Comments?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Since they are effectively separate speakers and separate amps, I am not sure I'd say that's necessary either.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have a speaker system that is essentially equivalent to the old JBL Olympus system, that is, 6 cubic foot enclosures with JBL LE15 woofers and JBL mid/upper horn drivers. These are driven through a JBL Crossover network (5234A) which in turn is connected to a 500 watt Haffler amp for the woofer and a smaller conventional (Yamaha) amp for the horns. The LE15's have 16 ohms impedance, while the horns are 8 ohm. The LE15's are directly connected to the amp, but years ago a "sound guy" said I had to use an impedance-matching network for the horns, which he designed and I built. It all seems to work, but lately, (and here's the question) I've been wondering why I need to worry about impedance matching for 2 speakers that are driven by separate amplifiers. Comments?
What was the network he created? The only network that will match the impedance would be a transformer.

16 Ohms is not an optimal impedance for solid state amps, as it halves the power available compared to an 8 ohm load. If he was going to to match he should have used a transformer to convert the 16 ohm to 8 ohm. However even that would be pointless as in effect you have a 250 watt per channel on the bottom end rather than 500 watts which is plenty.

What he did sounds totally bogus to me.

So the top end will tend to play louder than the bottom end, but I see that the JBL electronic crossover has a continuous level control on the high pass output. I see absolutely no point in what he was trying to do. I would bet you will be much better off without his interference.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
You don't need to worry about impedance matching of the speakers with each other when you have two speakers that are driven by different amplifiers. You only need to worry about the amplifiers being capable of dealing with the impedances of the speakers that they are driving, and with the amplifiers properly level matched (i.e., you want the sound from the tweeter to be the same level as the sound from the woofer when the input level is the same).

If you will pardon me for saying so, your "sound guy" sounds like an idiot, unless you have somehow misrepresented the situation.
 
J

Joe Abbott

Audiophyte
What was the network he created? The only network that will match the impedance would be a transformer.

16 Ohms is not an optimal impedance for solid state amps, as it halves the power available compared to an 8 ohm load. If he was going to to match he should have used a transformer to convert the 16 ohm to 8 ohm. However even that would be pointless as in effect you have a 250 watt per channel on the bottom end rather than 500 watts which is plenty.

What he did sounds totally bogus to me.

So the top end will tend to play louder than the bottom end, but I see that the JBL electronic crossover has a continuous level control on the high pass output. I see absolutely no point in what he was trying to do. I would bet you will be much better off without his interference.
 
J

Joe Abbott

Audiophyte
The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with you. I'm wondering if he missed the part about 2 separate amps. His "network" is like a mini-HeathKit - capacitors & resistors. I think I'll undo it and start over!
 
J

Joe Abbott

Audiophyte
You don't need to worry about impedance matching of the speakers with each other when you have two speakers that are driven by different amplifiers. You only need to worry about the amplifiers being capable of dealing with the impedances of the speakers that they are driving, and with the amplifiers properly level matched (i.e., you want the sound from the tweeter to be the same level as the sound from the woofer when the input level is the same).

If you will pardon me for saying so, your "sound guy" sounds like an idiot, unless you have somehow misrepresented the situation.
 
J

Joe Abbott

Audiophyte
Pretty sure the situation is as I presented it, and that's why I've begun to wonder what the point was. I'm now thinking that he missed the fact of 2 amps. And of course you're certainly right that the tricky part is balancing the two outputs. Each amp has it's own volume control, so there's lots of room to play around, but I lack any instrumentation to calibrate so it has to be just by live sound. Unless there's a better way?
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
When you hit the "Reply" icon, you enter text after the quote.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Pretty sure the situation is as I presented it, and that's why I've begun to wonder what the point was. I'm now thinking that he missed the fact of 2 amps. And of course you're certainly right that the tricky part is balancing the two outputs. Each amp has it's own volume control, so there's lots of room to play around, but I lack any instrumentation to calibrate so it has to be just by live sound. Unless there's a better way?
There is a better way. First of all, you should have a preamp before the crossover, in order to change the volume of everything at once. That way, after you get the balance of sound right between the woofer and tweeter, you leave the volume controls on your separate amplifiers alone, and just use the volume control of that preamp that feeds the signal to the electronic crossover, whenever you want to change the volume.

For setting the relative volume of the two speakers, you might want to try a series of test tones and an SPL meter, keeping in mind the fact that different frequencies are going to be different volume due to the fact that no speaker is perfect (e.g., that is, how loud the tweeter will be will vary some according to the frequency fed to it), and also due to room acoustics. Try to get the balance of sound as close as possible at the frequencies closest to the crossover frequency, so that there is not a sudden shift in volume when the sound is coming from one or the other at frequencies that are close together.

Also, keep in mind that if, after playing with it for a couple of hours, you are dissatisfied, you should remember that you can always readjust it later on. And it will never be "perfect", so do not stress yourself too much about it, and just try to get it as close to perfect as you reasonably can.


Although an SPL meter and a test tone disc are not expensive, if you don't want to spend any money at all, you will have to do it by ear. But you can probably find test tones to download for free from the internet (you would have to do a search or ask someone else where that would be), which may or may not be helpful to you. If you just use music, try to find music that plays just above and just below the crossover point, to make sure that that instrument does not sound strange going back and forth from the tweeter to the woofer. Also, double check it with a variety of music, to make sure everything seems okay. The more natural the sound, the better, assuming that you are familiar with how the instruments actually sound in real life. (E.g., a recording of a piano should sound like a piano, and the volume should not shift when a scale is played going between the woofer and the tweeter.)


Of course, you don't have to set it for the flattest frequency response if you prefer the sound to be unnatural, with exaggerated treble or exaggerated bass. You can just use personal preference, if you wish to do so. But I would try the above to get the frequency response as flat as I could.
 
J

Joe Abbott

Audiophyte
There is a better way. First of all, you should have a preamp before the crossover, in order to change the volume of everything at once. That way, after you get the balance of sound right between the woofer and tweeter, you leave the volume controls on your separate amplifiers alone, and just use the volume control of that preamp that feeds the signal to the electronic crossover, whenever you want to change the volume.

For setting the relative volume of the two speakers, you might want to try a series of test tones and an SPL meter, keeping in mind the fact that different frequencies are going to be different volume due to the fact that no speaker is perfect (e.g., that is, how loud the tweeter will be will vary some according to the frequency fed to it), and also due to room acoustics. Try to get the balance of sound as close as possible at the frequencies closest to the crossover frequency, so that there is not a sudden shift in volume when the sound is coming from one or the other at frequencies that are close together.

Also, keep in mind that if, after playing with it for a couple of hours, you are dissatisfied, you should remember that you can always readjust it later on. And it will never be "perfect", so do not stress yourself too much about it, and just try to get it as close to perfect as you reasonably can.


Although an SPL meter and a test tone disc are not expensive, if you don't want to spend any money at all, you will have to do it by ear. But you can probably find test tones to download for free from the internet (you would have to do a search or ask someone else where that would be), which may or may not be helpful to you. If you just use music, try to find music that plays just above and just below the crossover point, to make sure that that instrument does not sound strange going back and forth from the tweeter to the woofer. Also, double check it with a variety of music, to make sure everything seems okay. The more natural the sound, the better, assuming that you are familiar with how the instruments actually sound in real life. (E.g., a recording of a piano should sound like a piano, and the volume should not shift when a scale is played going between the woofer and the tweeter.)


Of course, you don't have to set it for the flattest frequency response if you prefer the sound to be unnatural, with exaggerated treble or exaggerated bass. You can just use personal preference, if you wish to do so. But I would try the above to get the frequency response as flat as I could.
I will follow your suggestions. My wife is a pianist and has better ears than I, so we'll go that way. But yes, I do have a pre-amp in front of the crossover, so I plan to only use the main amp controls for initial balancing. Thank you for the thoughtful suggestions.
Joe
 
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