I know, its the same question again, but there is a different twist! (SVS/Outlaw/HSU)

[Davemcc]

By the way - you still haven't gotten your SVS? I'm right across the border in Detroit, next time have it shipped to my house and just come pick it up!

That would have saved me a full month of waiting. Now I won't get it until Monday. I just replied to sonicboom's latest e-mail (cc: SVS) telling them exactly how I feel about the whole transaction to date (not good).

Which bookshelves are you mating your sub with?

 

[Bradleyfs]

I'm mating to Def Tech Studio Monitor 350s.

With respect to the other HSU unit, that is actually what HSU suggested as well. I just find it hard to believe that you don't lose that much performance by not going with the HO. I know the difference is in the driver and I thought that was why the HO was supposed to be so special - because of the liner motor patented technology.

Oddly enough, I am now considering doing the Axiom EP500 because I can get it quickly. Its seems like a very good sub. Its tiny compared to the PB12 Plus/2, but I don't know if it will be sufficient for my room. My gut feeling (with no real support) is that the EP500 may have the most "elegance" of all three, but PB12 Plus/12 would go much deeper at louder levels. The HSU is probably a good compromise between these two (its just not available!)

I am going to call Axiom and see if they think the EP500 will be sufficient for my room size. If they do, maybe I should try it. You have a 45 day in home trial and if dont like it I could send it back for just return shipping cost (approx $100 maybe). I would have actually considered the same thing with the SVS but too much of a pain the rear to send back because at 140 lbs, I can't even lift the thing by myself - and of course you lose shipping both ways and tax).

 

[Davemcc]

I'm a novice at this myself, but since I just finished my own research and came up with a similar system, I'll give you my unsolicited thoughts.

I doubt that you will have any trouble at all blending any of these subs into the Studio Monitors, which extend down to 26 Hz, so should be strong at any usual cross-over point.

Second, I think that any of the subs mentioned, including the single driver PB12-Plus, would have the ability to overwhelm the SM 350's if you were to drive them to their potential. There is some serious bass power under discussion here.

Third, the EP500 really is one fine looking sub and I'm sure the performance would back it up. I'm going to keep this one in mind in case my SVS transaction tanks.

 

[Wid]

Axiom gives you a 30 day trial period not 45. By all acounts the EP500 is one fine sub.

 

[Peter Marcks]

Good morning Bradley,

I'm mating to Def Tech Studio Monitor 350s.

With respect to the other HSU unit, that is actually what HSU suggested as well. I just find it hard to believe that you don't lose that much performance by not going with the HO. I know the difference is in the driver and I thought that was why the HO was supposed to be so special - because of the liner motor patented technology.

The reason why the VTF-3 Mk3 has similar performance to the VTF-3 HO is because the enclosure, internal volume, port size, and port tuning are identical. In fact, due to use of a lighter cone woofer in the VTF-3 Mk3, the mid/upper bass efficiency is higher which actually gives the VTF-3 Mk3 slightly higher mid/upper bass headroom. The VTF-3 HO excels in moving lots of air cleanly in the deepest bass. It can play a bit louder and cleaner in the deep bass at and below 20Hz.

Hope this is helpful to you!

Sincerely,

 

[Bradleyfs]

Thank you Peter, that makes sense. However, even with that explanation, I still think the VTR-3 HO would be a better choice for me out of the two.

Thank you to everyone else as well, your thoughts and opinons have been appreciated. Out of self preservation, I had to end this and make a decision, and its only right I explain the logic behind it. I have to say however before I start, that I firmly believe all the SVS, HSU and Axiom, are all superior, high quality units with very good performance standards.

I did not go with the SVS based on two reasons: 1) I wanted to honor the agreement I made and not exceed my price limit (however, if it were not for the truly unexpected sales tax issue - I would probably have my SVS by now) and 2) because of the size of the unit (which would have bothered me far less with a nice wood finish, but that adds another $200 to the price). I have no problem with the size of the unit, if it is actually necessary for my HT room. The problem is, there are so many different opinions and acoustial varitions, the only way for me to find out if a unit that size is necessary, is try a smaller one first.

Between the HSU VTR-3 HO and Axion EP500, I decided to go with the HSU unit (at least initially that is). I felt the HSU was the best value, as it would do what I need and wanted it to do and do it exceptionally well (this does not mean that either the SVS or the Axiom would not do the same). With the turbo (which I still think is just tacky looking), I'm positive that it would be fine for a room of my size. And for the most part, I could probably just use the turbo for movies or as a gentle way to wake my wife in the morning!

Unfortunately, HSU is out of stock of the HO until the end of this month. As you know, I have my new receiver (sitting in its box), Monday I will have my Def Techs (sitting in their boxes), and all I needed was my sub to take everything out of the boxes! (I want to do it all at one time because with all the calibrations and tests, it just seems to make more sense that way - plus I have limited time to spend doing it, so doing it once is better for me). Normally, I would simply a month - no big deal, I'm an adult. But, due to all the new components, it would be torture to try and wait that long (I guess I'm not that much of an adult!). So I could not wait for HSU.

As such, I called Axiom and ordered the EP500. The EP500 is the smallest and nicest looking of the bunch (Boston Cherry - no extra charge). As I said above, I think all three are exceptional subs. To be honest though, the EP500 is also the one that I am most worred about not being able to be effective in the size room I have. The person at Axiom says it will be fine (but that's what I expected him to say). I'm not saying that he was not telling the truth, but I do get the odd feeling that the people at HSU and SVS tell you what they think rather than simply trying to sell you a unit.

In any event, my logic behind this purchase is that if in fact the EP500 can handle my room, with the bass that I want, great, I'll be happy. If not, I have 30 days to return it, no questions asked. The only cost to me is $62 return shipping (well worth the home trial). I'm halfway expecting that I will end up returning it and ordering the HSU, but am trying to stay optimistic. (Although I did confirm that if I change my mind over the weekend, I can call can cancel my order no problem monday morning! lol).

Oddly enough, my only concern now is that because almost anything will be far better than my current Accoustimas, that I may think the EP500 is working great, but not realize how much better it would be with the HSU or SVS!

Anyway, thank you all! If I don't change my mind by Monday, I'll be sure to report back about how I think it works in my large room!

 

[Peter Marcks]

Bradley,

The Axiom is a great unit, I think you will really like it! Also, the size is significantly smaller than the HO, which is always a nice thing when it comes to moving around and placing the sub!

Enjoy, and congrats on the great setup!

 

[mike c]

since you have it in a very big room, and thus would need to increase the volume more than anybody else will ... listen for chuffing at the XLR connections at the back ... if they haven't delivered yet, maybe you can specify to them to liberally seal those connections with sealant.

 

[Bradleyfs]

Thanks Peter, that means a lot coming from you. Its actually refreshing to hear. But as I said before, no matter how good the unit is, I'm still skeptical as to whether it is physically large enough for me room. Thus, there is still a good possibility that the HSU HO is what I will eventually end up ourchaing! (however I would be happy to audition and compare both at the same time if you want to send me a unit!). ************************** Thanks for the advice about the sealant, I assume this is a common problem with them? If they can't/wont do it, is this something I can do from the outside or something they do from the inside?

 

[mike c]

i don't know if it's a common problem, but it's something that has to be done from the inside.

you have to have the volume way up for the air to start escaping the XLR ports, in my 2600 cu.ft. room, I've never had it more than 1/3 of the volume up, so no problems with mine.

 

[AdrianMills]

Hey Bradleyfs, I feel your pain; I went through a similarly obsessive period before I settled on an SVS PB-12+. It's a seriously good sub by anyone’s standards and I guess you'd be blown away by the amount of bass... The PB-12+/2 (which I also own) has an even more prodigious output and literally makes the pictures on my walls dance when the gain is turned up to 50% (only used for amusing demos). I'm even considering selling off my PB-12+ as the PB-12+/2 is more than enough for my room and due to room placement issues the second sub is not really helping much either.

And like you, my HT is in my living area so the HSU with a turbo would be unacceptably ugly for my tastes. People have said that it's quick and easy to put on and take off as needed but that in my opinion is just a PITA.

 

[Bradleyfs]

Adrian,

Sounds like you went through the same process I did! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who obsesses about these things. Thanks for the information about your sub, I will definately keep it in mind if the Axiom does not work out.

I expect delivery of the EP500 on Thursday. It won't be long after that I will know whether or not its headed back. Its funny, in some respects I want it to work out, but yet in others I almost hope it doesn't because at then I will be able to have a comparison to rate it against!

As soon as I get it all hooked up and working however, I will put out a new post with my thoughts on it.

 

[Tdekany]

I know I am late to your Question but here it is in case you change your mind.

From The HSU forum:

I had dual EP500's at one point in time, but switched back to HSU.

While the EP500's rocked, I did not find them to be as clear, articulate, and detailed as the HSU VTF-3 MK2 that I had before them. So for me, the decision to switch back to HSU was a no brainer.

Good luck with the sub!!!!

This is Craigsub's List:

JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points
ACI Maestro: 97 points
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points
Axiom EP-500: 90 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
Rocket Tyke: 60 points

 

[Starmax]

Vtf-3 Mk2

For what it's worth, the VTF-3 MK2 subs are selling for $559. as a clearance item on their website (reg. $699). You could order 2 and stay in budget (like I just did). I realize that might violate the delicate WAF, but you need the practice to stay sharp on your persuasion skills.

 

[Bradleyfs]

Very interesting. Oddly enough, I was leaning toward the not very pretty but confidence inspiring HSU until I found out I could not get one for a while.

The EP500 is either arriving Friday or Monday (I hope Friday!). Unless I'm totally blown away by it, I will probably return and get the HSU. I do wish it was easier to audition these larger subs in your home because I would love to hear the sound difference. I still hope I'm not blown away by the EP500 simply because I have not heard any sub of equal caliber in this room before!

 

[Starmax]

getting blown away

Sometimes, ignorance is bliss...and if you can put out of your mind that nagging "I wonder what those HSU's woulda sounded like," it's best to just love the one you're with. If not, you'll be forever and always second guessing your choice. Of course, that might be the root of audioholicism.

 

[Bradleyfs]

Well, here is the result........

I received the Axiom EP500 on Friday and have been playing with it all weekend. I have put it through every torture test I can think of!

I must say that it performs admirably. I will shake the walls and rumble couch, in what is by cubic foot measurements, a very large room.

Still the largest problem I have is that I have no real frame of reference to compare it to. This means that while I can say it sounds excellent, I can't say it is any better or any any worse than the SVS or HSU would be. My guess is that the EP500 is sufficient for my purposes and keeps the wife happy, but I get the feeling that my room size is at its upper maximum range. If I did not have a nice reflective corner to put it in, I would think I would have to use either the SVS or the HSU.

That being said, for my room, the EP500 seems flawless. The sound is crisp and clean for music and it makes the windows rattle (annoyingly by the way) during low frequency bass scenes in movies.

Not that is the right dicussion for the same, but I also have to give Kudos to Definitive Technology. This is also the first time I hooked up the new speakers I got from them. For my mains, I am using very small Studio Monitor 350s and am blown away from the imaging these speakers are cablable of providing. The center and the bipolar surrounds are nice as well, but not quite as impressive as the 350s.

Please note that I also excessively obscessed about speaker choices. I had a limited price range and auditioned everything, including B&W, Paradigm, and Klipsch). I have not one bad thing to say about these speakers, and despite what is seems from the above, I am usually critical about everything!

 

[jbrillo]

Bradleyfs,

I went through a similar situation 2-years ago when I was shopping for a subwoofer, although my budget was half of yours. I too had a 20-ft. ceiling in a 23 x 15 room that was open to the kitchen, dining room, upstairs walkway, and gameroom!!! Unfortunately I didn't have a corner I could put the sub in. It sits along the front wall with my main speakers. That's the only place it could go. But, thankfully, my new sub was so much better than my old one that words could not describe how much better it was. I do have to have the gain set rather high(at the one o'clock position), but it has been more than sufficient for me. I think that if your happy with the EP500, you should just keep it. I think some has said this already, but the grass always looks greener on the other side. You just have to be happy with the grass you've got!!! I'm sure that EP500 is no slouch. So if you like it, don't even worry yourself about what the others "might" sound like. Just pop in your favorite DVD and enjoy!!! Congrat's on your choice!

 

[mike c]

it's a great subwoofer. honestly. you have to shell out crap loads more money to get just a little bit more performance.

 

[freeflap]

Well, here is the result........

I received the Axiom EP500 on Friday and have been playing with it all weekend. I have put it through every torture test I can think of!

I must say that it performs admirably. I will shake the walls and rumble couch, in what is by cubic foot measurements, a very large room.

Still the largest problem I have is that I have no real frame of reference to compare it to. This means that while I can say it sounds excellent, I can't say it is any better or any any worse than the SVS or HSU would be. My guess is that the EP500 is sufficient for my purposes and keeps the wife happy, but I get the feeling that my room size is at its upper maximum range. If I did not have a nice reflective corner to put it in, I would think I would have to use either the SVS or the HSU.

That being said, for my room, the EP500 seems flawless. The sound is crisp and clean for music and it makes the windows rattle (annoyingly by the way) during low frequency bass scenes in movies.

Not that is the right dicussion for the same, but I also have to give Kudos to Definitive Technology. This is also the first time I hooked up the new speakers I got from them. For my mains, I am using very small Studio Monitor 350s and am blown away from the imaging these speakers are cablable of providing. The center and the bipolar surrounds are nice as well, but not quite as impressive as the 350s.

Please note that I also excessively obscessed about speaker choices. I had a limited price range and auditioned everything, including B&W, Paradigm, and Klipsch). I have not one bad thing to say about these speakers, and despite what is seems from the above, I am usually critical about everything!

bradley:

I think you will enjoy the axiom. I've had mine for a year now. It still puts out more bass than i "need". Of course, i "want" more, but do not "need" more. One way to notice how good these subs really are, is the fact that there are so few of them for sale on ebay or audiogon. People buy them, and tend to keep them.

i have it in my basement HT which is about 23' x 60' x 8'. the basement has all RBH speakers (1266se, 661se, 61se, and an onix ufw10 sub as well) only half is used for the HT. the other half is kid's play area.

"If" i were to upgrade, I would consider doing the following:
1. buying another EP500
2. selling my EP and buying a pair of Hsu VTF3HO. craigsub's review was pretty convincing.
3. await the new onix (av123.com) MFW15. these look amazing. at 1000 for a PAIR of 15" drivers within a transmission line style ported cab and 350watts each should produce a phenomenal amount of bass and certainly be without equal in this price bracket.

my 2 cents.