HT pre-amp suggestions

[lucassean]

Hi,

I've been running a Pioneer VSX-815 7.1 HT receiver. I just purchased a used B & K AV5000 5.0 amp. I'm only running 5.1. I have the Pioneer driving my sub and the b & K driving the rest. I'm astounded by the improvement of the sound. It's just great. The VSX-815 was bought new about 4 years ago. Should I buy a new receiver or pre-amp to further enhance the sound? I don't know if I'm chasing a fool's run. My speakers are AV123 Onix reference 1's for the front mains and ETL 525's for the rest. Thanks for your thoughts

 

[CraigV]

Hi,

I've been running a Pioneer VSX-815 7.1 HT receiver. I just purchased a used B & K AV5000 5.0 amp. I'm only running 5.1. I have the Pioneer driving my sub and the b & K driving the rest. I'm astounded by the improvement of the sound. It's just great. The VSX-815 was bought new about 4 years ago. Should I buy a new receiver or pre-amp to further enhance the sound? I don't know if I'm chasing a fool's run. My speakers are AV123 Onix reference 1's for the front mains and ETL 525's for the rest. Thanks for your thoughts

If the pioneer decodes everything that you want, you’re good to go

 

[Amherst]

I happen to have put together a similar set-up about two months ago.
Using a 4 year old Yammie AVR as pre/pro with the B+K AV5000II driving my 5.1 speakers. Really like the B+K Amp!
S M O O T H and L O U D!

I also say the difference was astounding over the amplifier section of the AVR.
Have been criticized on this forum for this statement, but stand by it.

If you are sounding good and clean and have enough power the only other big consideration is if your receiver handles the audio formats you need to play.

Don't believe a separate pre/pro is going to to yeild great results.

Better speakers could yield more audible results and be a better investment.

 

[lucassean]

Thanks

Thank you! That's exactly the info I needed

 

[njedpx3]

No change you are trading 100 watts for 100 watts

Hi,

I've been running a Pioneer VSX-815 7.1 HT receiver. I just purchased a used B & K AV5000 5.0 amp. I'm only running 5.1. I have the Pioneer driving my sub and the b & K driving the rest. I'm astounded by the improvement of the sound. It's just great. The VSX-815 was bought new about 4 years ago. Should I buy a new receiver or pre-amp to further enhance the sound? I don't know if I'm chasing a fool's run. My speakers are AV123 Onix reference 1's for the front mains and ETL 525's for the rest. Thanks for your thoughts

You should see no difference in sound. Your Pioneer VSX-815 receiver puts out 100 watts per channel and the B & K AV5000 puts out 100 watts per channel for 3 channels and 60 watts per channel for two. You are changing 100 watts for 100 watts , so you have no power gain. Unless something is amiss in you Pioneer VSX-815 amplifier section, which is usually not the case, you should see no change at all.

Here is a copy of the B & K AV5000 manual:
http://www.bkcomp.com/fileadmin/content/content_products/manuals/Past/Amp/AV 654.pdf

Here is a copy of the Pioneer VSX-815 manual: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_11221/218219098VSX815OperatingInstructions.pdf


Good Luck!

Forest Man

 

[lucassean]

I respectfully disagree. My wife is not not an enthusiast, but commented on how good the sound was. The consumer AVR's do a good job, but at $300.00 you just can't get the tonality that a dedicated quality amp can produce. I've seen amps priced at $3500.00. I'm sure you can spend as much money as you want too as well. I'm not a sound engineer, but I know what I hear. The improve is quite noticeable. Yes it's the 100 watts that pushes the speakers, but I believe it's in the detail, purity, and quality of the signal that the power is carrying. If I had to do it again I may just have gone to sound engineering school. Love this stuff! Thanks, Chris.

 

[Amherst]

The consumer AVR's do a good job, but at $300.00 you just can't get the tonality that a dedicated quality amp can produce. I'm not a sound engineer, but I know what I hear. The improve is quite noticeable. Yes it's the 100 watts that pushes the speakers, but I believe it's in the detail, purity, and quality.

+1^^^ Agreed!

I have also been told I'm wrong saying that there is a difference with amplification.

I say, 100 watts is not always the same from different equipment.

I also know what I hear.

I also had other people make comments on the sound change in my system who did not know any equipment had been changed.

My amp is in the basement cause there was not enough room in my cabinet and not a word was said until after a comment was made.

My system sounds completely different with the separate amp and the AVR that originally provided the amplification to the system has decent ratings.

 

[njedpx3]

I respectfully disagree!

Just my opinion - take it for what it is worth.

I respectfully do not agree with both of you: lucassean and Amherst

A pure amplifier is just that it takes an input signal and increases the amplitude. It does not add or subtract or filter or otherwise alter the signal.



The pre-amp is where you add effects, equalize, filter, and enhance the signal

=====

Iff ( not a typo) the B & K 5000 offers no controls except level controls on each channel ,then it cannot enchance or improve your sound. Therefore after again reviewing the B & K 5000 manual, it is a pure amplifier. If the level controls is what makes it sound good then a simple tuning of your system would have the same effect, either an automatic like Audyssey or manual with an SPL sound meter.

I know you would like to believe that your B & K 5000 amplifiers have improved your sound ( self-fullfilling prophesy syndrome), but the facts state otherwise.

Peace and accept that I respect your opinions, but I do not agree with them because there are not facts to support your opinions.

Take care and if you enjoy your sound, then great.

Later,

Forest Man

 

[Chatta]

I will suggest the latest line of NAD. English design, well built and always good value. You can not go wrong.

 

[mnatiq]

You should see no difference in sound. Your Pioneer VSX-815 receiver puts out 100 watts per channel and the B & K AV5000 puts out 100 watts per channel for 3 channels and 60 watts per channel for two. You are changing 100 watts for 100 watts , so you have no power gain. Unless something is amiss in you Pioneer VSX-815 amplifier section, which is usually not the case, you should see no change at all.

Here is a copy of the B & K AV5000 manual:
http://www.bkcomp.com/fileadmin/content/content_products/manuals/Past/Amp/AV 654.pdf

Here is a copy of the Pioneer VSX-815 manual: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_11221/218219098VSX815OperatingInstructions.pdf


Good Luck!

Forest Man

would i notice a difference? my hk is 75 watts per channel and according to the specs of the B & K its 100 watts.

btw if u think that it wont make a noticeable difference PLEASE TELL ME WHICH AMP (I prefer 7 channel but that might be $$$$$ so 5 channel is fine) WILL I REALLY NOTICE A DIFFERENCE FROM? i will use my hk receiver and polk's with which ever amp u think will do the job. btw it can be a older amp, new or used as i am a lil low on cash, moving in December.


all comments are appreciated.

ps: to the original thread starter, sorry if i interfere with ur question.

 

[Amherst]

Just my opinion - take it for what it is worth.

I respectfully do not agree with both of you: lucassean and Amherst

I know you would like to believe that your B & K 5000 amplifiers have improved your sound ( self-fullfilling prophesy syndrome), but the facts state otherwise.

What facts?

You have only presented opinion.
So you are saying there is no interaction between an amplifier and a speaker?
Is the ability of an amplifier to provide headroom not a consideration.
Are you really going to espouse that any 100w = any other 100w electronically?

While I respect your opinion, you are wrong as the facts state.

 

[Amherst]

would i notice a difference? my hk is 75 watts per channel and according to the specs of the B & K its 100 watts.

Those Polks are rated at 8ohms, I have been told and believe that spec is bunk.
These speakers present a challenging load on an amplifier,and depending on your listening levels a separate amp could provide you with better sonic bliss.

Those Monitor 70's you're running could probably really use more power than the B+K AVR 5000 could provide. I'm running Monitor 40's and 30's w/CSI6.
My B+K is a series II with a 125W per channel rating. I have been able to bring it to clipping, but this unit satisfies my needs (for now).
Also, I noticed the speakers sound better even at moderate levels than with my receiver providing the power.

If you are looking for a separate amp try finding something at least in the 200W per channel range. The used deals are very good right now, mine was a great investment.

There are many quality units from various manufacturers in the used market, poke around!
Sunfire is another amp I've heard that I liked.

 

[lucassean]

Agreed

Thanks Amherst for the support. I wasn't going to bang my head on the wall again, lol.

Mnatiq, Here's a great amp - http://cgi.ebay.com/EMOTIVA-LPA-1-Home-Theatre-7-channel-amplifier_W0QQitemZ270481251876QQcmdZViewItemQQptZHome_Theater_in_a_Box?hash=item3ef9f05e24#ht_500wt_1182

Yes you will notice a difference. I picked up my B & K AV5000 S2 ( 125 watts ) for $410.00. There are several others on ebay and audiogon. The trouble with amps though is that their price can really jump. A $1000.00 dollar budget would buy a killer amp. I just didn't have that cash available. I have a deal with my wife which is that I have to sell something before I buy. Keep your eye on the used stuff. Good luck!!

 

[PSWii60]

Great deals can be had on Audiogon.com

 

[njedpx3]

would i notice a difference? my hk is 75 watts per channel and according to the specs of the B & K its 100 watts.

btw if u think that it wont make a noticeable difference PLEASE TELL ME WHICH AMP (I prefer 7 channel but that might be $$$$$ so 5 channel is fine) WILL I REALLY NOTICE A DIFFERENCE FROM? i will use my hk receiver and polk's with which ever amp u think will do the job. btw it can be a older amp, new or used as i am a lil low on cash, moving in December.


all comments are appreciated.

ps: to the original thread starter, sorry if i interfere with ur question.

Mnatiq ..to answer your question ..and appologies to OP..not trying to hijack your thread.

Remember power is logaritmic. You need a substantial increase in power to hear a difference. Going from 100 watts to 200 watt provides a 15% increase. The dB change is given by the formula dB increase = 10*log10(P2/P1) , so if P2=200 and P1=100 the db increase is 3dB.

A very good five channel power amp is the Emotiva XPA-5 (200 watts x 5 into 8 ohms or 350 watts x 5 into 4 ohms) It has an MSRP of $799 but you can usually get it for less. http://www.emotiva.com/xpa5.shtm

However, you probably would gain the most benefit per dollar by amplifying only the front two channels with an external amp. Behringer makes a very good 2 channel amp, EP2500, which you can buy for as little as $269 http://www.audiolines.com/Pro-Audio/Amplifiers/Professional-Amps/Behringer-EP-2500

Peace and Good Luck!

Forest Man

 

[mnatiq]

Mnatiq ..to answer your question ..and appologies to OP..not trying to hijack your thread.

Remember power is logaritmic. You need a substantial increase in power to hear a difference. Going from 100 watts to 200 watt provides a 15% increase. The dB change is given by the formula dB increase = 10*log10(P2/P1) , so if P2=200 and P1=100 the db increase is 3dB.

A very good five channel power amp is the Emotiva XPA-5 (200 watts x 5 into 8 ohms or 350 watts x 5 into 4 ohms) It has an MSRP of $799 but you can usually get it for less. http://www.emotiva.com/xpa5.shtm

However, you probably would gain the most benefit per dollar by amplifying only the front two channels with an external amp. Behringer makes a very good 2 channel amp, EP2500, which you can buy for as little as $269 http://www.audiolines.com/Pro-Audio/Amplifiers/Professional-Amps/Behringer-EP-2500

Peace and Good Luck!

Forest Man

a question about the behringer, it says that its "2,400 Watts into 4 Ohms bridged operation", will not that destroy my speakers?

also from HK's 75 watts to emotiva's 200 watts will i notice a difference that i will really like, or will i be able to say 2 myself that's money well spent?

thanks again, sorry to the OP.

 

[njedpx3]

No headroom andclipping might be why the B & K 5000 sounds better.

a question about the behringer, it says that its "2,400 Watts into 4 Ohms bridged operation", will not that destroy my speakers?

also from HK's 75 watts to emotiva's 200 watts will i notice a difference that i will really like, or will i be able to say 2 myself that's money well spent?

thanks again, sorry to the OP.

On more response and sorry for hijacking OP but it also answers an OP concern about headroom and is the only posible explanation I can come up with for his improved sound.

If you are currently running your AVR as loud as it will go all or most of the time, you could be possibly clipping your signal which is very bad. It is also considered no-head room to be running at or close to max because if a stronger than normal frequency signal comes in that will clip and imapct the overall sound quality. If OPs current setup is running at max and the B & K 5000 adds even a little increase it might be enough to make it sound better. If your HK at 75 watts is maxed out you might see an improvement, otherwise you won't really see any. However the main HT component that affects sound are the speakers. The most improvement gain in in a system is to upgrade speakers.

Now concerning the 4 ohms bridged into a mono channel, meaning you connect in series the 1200+1200 into 2 ohms + 2ohms for a single channel; you are not going to run like that. also the pre-out input can be varied and that change also changes the amplifier output; you do not always run at maximum.

The Behringer shows a spec of 1200 watts per channel into 2 ohms. A rule of thumb is that when you cut the ohms in half you require twice as much power ( there is some loss due to inefficiencies) so 1200 watts into 2 ohms approximately equals 600 watts into 4 ohms approximately equals 300 watts into 8 ohms. Even at 300 watts you will not be running ( or should not be) the pre-out at maximum into the amp.

One other consideration is how sensitive or efficient your speakers are. Less efficient speakers (and some high end speakers are 4 ohms and inefficient and require lots of power; external amp almost always required) require more power than high efficient speakers. Speaker efficiency is meseure in dBs , low sensitivity (80 db), average sensitivity ( 88-90db), high efficiency ( approaching 100 dB). Also, remember the speaker impedance varies with frequency so it is not constant and a nomina; impedance is usually specificied. 4 ohms requires twice as much power as 8 ohm and 6 ohm requires 1.33 times as much power as 8 ohms.

Peace and Good luck to All

Forest Man

 

[Josuah]

The 2400W bridged mono is peak, not a maintainable amount. And it won't destroy your speakers unless you actually use all of that power. You can buy a 1000W amp and only use 5W and everyone's happy (although you're probably not in the valley of the distortion curve unless the amp topology does something special for low wattage).

And FWIW, I have heard dramatic differences in sound between amps. There are lots of ways you can build an amplifier, so this should not be surprising to anyone who might compare their circuits. You can also measure differences between amps of the same rated power. The sine wave and sweep measurements are not sufficient for describing the sound of an amp.

 

[Amherst]

The 2400W bridged mono is peak, not a maintainable amount. And it won't destroy your speakers unless you actually use all of that power. You can buy a 1000W amp and only use 5W and everyone's happy (although you're probably not in the valley of the distortion curve unless the amp topology does something special for low wattage).

And FWIW, I have heard dramatic differences in sound between amps. There are lots of ways you can build an amplifier, so this should not be surprising to anyone who might compare their circuits. You can also measure differences between amps of the same rated power. The sine wave and sweep measurements are not sufficient for describing the sound of an amp.

Amplifiers also can reach a clipping situation well before full power is reached which is another reason one unit will sound different from another even at moderate sound pressure levels.
Factor in the responsiveness of the power supply and caps,circuitry, excetera and behold they sound different!

Mnatiq,I'd be careful of the cheap berringer line. The parts and circuit design used in manufacture may show in the sound quality.