HSU VTF-15H Subwoofer Review

[billy p]

So just like the original reveiw pegged the Hsu sub it's a great sub for music...home theather...not so much. I got to wondering...if I'm a Canadain and thinking about buying this sub....after all is said and done, I could have bought the the pb12 plus for ~200.00 more in Canada and had 2x's the sub...

 

[sharkman]

Wow, lots more data and testing this time! But the reviewer seems a little defensive. Of his first review, of blogs and comments, and of the Hsu numbers. But he sure gave reams and reams of data this time!

 

[jhan1000]

Wow, lots more data and testing this time! But the reviewer seems a little defensive. Of his first review, of blogs and comments, and of the Hsu numbers. But he sure gave reams and reams of data this time!

I felt that as well, but he was also defending himself from the critics, some of whom questioned his qualifications. In the end, it was a very interesting read and the numbers speak for themselves.

The amount of additional provided is almost unheard of and I am appreciative that AH went the extra mile to provide this detailed analysis.

Now hopefully they can move on to the Funkwaves review.

 

[smurphy522]

May have missed it somewhere but if Dr. HSU was "concerned" then he could have supplied the ULS-15 to compete in the comparison/review. Just my $0.02.

 

[tattoo_Dan]

The Hsu VTF-15H is a self-powered front-loaded vented subwoofer featuring a 15" long throw driver and 350 watt amplifier with controls to allow tweaking of the low pass crossover as well as the bottom end of the subwoofer to optimally match it to your room and listening preferences. Weighing in at 123lbs and costing $879 for the black finish, it was hands down, the "BEST BUY" of the group of subs we compared. HSU demonstrated strong engineering, excellent integration of the sub with the power amp and cabinet, and a surprising amount of output from the system given the relatively low output capacity of the amplifier used. The VTF-15H is an excellent example of what can be done when you attempt to squeeze the last bit of performance from a modest budget.

Discuss "HSU VTF-15H Subwoofer Review" here. Read the article.

first thing that hits me looking at that sub,is that it's ugly IMO.

 

[Ron Temple]

So...not much changed which is to be expected if the methodology and sub is consistent. I appreciate the good read. Paul and AH sure went the extra mile on this one. I highly doubt it will shutdown the fan criticism. I don't think Paul was particularly defensive...maybe a tad put out that his credentials and/or possible bias were put into question. I would be too, if I had the expertise.

 

[dalumberjack]

audioholics, bravo

 

[Pyrrho]

Can you tell me the difference between telling a woman she "isn't fat" or telling her she "is skinny." ...

Yes. Being fat means having too much weight, and being skinny means having too little weight. A woman who is the proper (i.e., healthy) weight is neither fat nor skinny.

So, a woman who isn't fat could either be skinny or the proper weight.

(Of course, "the proper weight" is actually any weight within a certain range, any of which is healthy, the range depending upon such things as height and bone structure; but it is intermediate between too much weight and too little weight.)

If you have seen pictures of the people who were released from Auschwitz when it was closed, or people who are anorexic, you will know that being skinny is not a good thing. You can see a picture of someone who was anorexic at this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anorexia_nervosa

It is not a good way to be, and does not look good at all. The picture found at the top of the page at the link above is an extreme case, but anything below a healthy weight is not good.


With subwoofers, they can be tiny and easy to move. They can be huge and weigh so much that an ordinary person in good health cannot safely move them alone without equipment, and that, of course, would be what most would call unmanageably big/heavy subwoofers. Or they can be in between those extremes in size, with some weight, but still manageable by someone who is not a total wimp.

The Hsu VTF-15H is evidently more or less in the intermediate category, neither tiny and easy to move, nor in the unmanageably big category. Of course, in the case of subwoofers, the size has nothing to do with health, and would be ideally small, but given the laws of physics, that does not work for subwoofers to produce high volumes at low frequencies, and so being tiny is not going to be possible for someone whose performance demands are high. Many audiophiles will want a subwoofer in the not small, but still manageable category, because of the performance they desire, combined with wanting to be able to move the subwoofer without special equipment or a large group of strong people.

 

[Ron Temple]

The FR curve at higher output doesn't trouble me. Most rooms will add enough gain to achieve a fairly flat response. However, I don't get the disparity between Paul's max output measurements vs. Hsu's. There is a 2.5 to 7db delta depending on frequency. Could it be Clio vs other measurement software? If so, wouldn't that push the competitors numbers up equally. That would push the Rythmik sub above 130dbs in the meat.

Personally, I favor the 2M/RMS scale values. It's easier to translate to real world performance and doesn't smack of inflated marketing claims. This 1M/peak stuff means that we put it in room, we're going to have to expect less in our LP, not more.

 

[gene]

"The FR curve at higher output doesn't trouble me. Most rooms will add enough gain to achieve a fairly flat response. However, I don't get the disparity between Paul's max output measurements vs. Hsu's. There is a 2.5 to 7db delta depending on frequency. Could it be Clio vs other measurement software? If so, wouldn't that push the competitors numbers up equally. That would push the Rythmik sub above 130dbs in the meat.

Personally, I favor the 2M/RMS scale values. It's easier to translate to real world performance and doesn't smack of inflated marketing claims. This 1M/peak stuff means that we put it in room, we're going to have to expect less in our LP, not more. "

CLIO is one of the most accurate measurement systems in the world. Paul's #s are dead on and agreed to by Rythmik and SVS when we presented their data to them.

2 meter is preferred if you can get far enough away from surfaces to get accurate data down to 10Hz. 1 meter works too, just subtract 6dB and you have your 2 meter data.

 

[zhimbo]

You didn't factor day of the week into your supplemental analysis. Please re-do for at least weekend vs. weekday.

Thanks. And hurry it up.

Added by edit:

 

[Ron Temple]

CLIO is one of the most accurate measurement systems in the world. Paul's #s are dead on and agreed to by Rythmik and SVS when we presented their data to them.

2 meter is preferred if you can get far enough away from surfaces to get accurate data down to 10Hz. 1 meter works too, just subtract 6dB and you have your 2 meter data.

Gene, I'm not disputing Paul's numbers and I understand about the reduction for 2M. My point was there's such a disparity between Hsu's numbers that they either are using different software/mics, etc. or there is more marketing fudge applied than is reasonable. If it's their software, then I assume that the other subs in the shootout's numbers would take a similar upward swing...and them's some pretty big numbers.

 

[billy p]

Gene, I'm not disputing Paul's numbers and I understand about the reduction for 2M. My point was there's such a disparity between Hsu's numbers that they either are using different software/mics, etc. or there is more marketing fudge applied than is reasonable. If it's their software, then I assume that the other subs in the shootout's numbers would take a similar upward swing...and them's some pretty big numbers

But that would still make their numbers look small...er.

 

[Sputter]

While i've only read the review once so far, to me, there seems to be some underlying "anger" (for lack of a better word).
Fortunately we can look at the numbers and not his prose.

I'm not knowledgeable like his claimed 23 years of designing subs. My in-room response doesn't drop till 20hz. I'm assuming indoor testing is hugely different than outdoors?

Interesting read anyways.

 

[gene]

Gene, I'm not disputing Paul's numbers and I understand about the reduction for 2M. My point was there's such a disparity between Hsu's numbers that they either are using different software/mics, etc. or there is more marketing fudge applied than is reasonable. If it's their software, then I assume that the other subs in the shootout's numbers would take a similar upward swing...and them's some pretty big numbers.

We leave out the guess work and stick to actual real measurement data to determine product performance. In 2 port open mode, EQ2, it's impossible for the SPL data NOT to be down at 20Hz since there is a 30Hz HPF employed to protect the driver.

We haven't seen and frequency response or SPL data posted by HSU. Very few companies post real measured data. SVS & Rythmik gave us full disclosure of their data after we sent them our data for review which is very helpful.

 

[Ron Temple]

My in-room response doesn't drop till 20hz. I'm assuming indoor testing is hugely different than outdoors?

Interesting read anyways.

Most of us get room and boudary gain below 35hz that can flatten or raise the deep response. I had to scrub off a 10db shelf below 30hz in my room. That said, when most of us run sweeps in our room it's at 75 to 80dbs. You're going to get the best curve the sub can throw (room dependent) at this level. The Hsu shows compression at 30hz receding to 40hz as it get's towards max output. The amp and driver are running out of gas. That's outdoors wiithout any boundary reinforcement. I'm sure in room, played within itself most will get true 20hz and below performance.

 

[Paul_Apollonio]

While i've only read the review once so far, to me, there seems to be some underlying "anger" (for lack of a better word).
Fortunately we can look at the numbers and not his prose.

I'm not knowledgeable like his claimed 23 years of designing subs. My in-room response doesn't drop till 20hz. I'm assuming indoor testing is hugely different than outdoors?

Interesting read anyways.

YUP. Indoors you get lots of room gain. Indoors with the mike even a couple of inches from the cone, you measure mostly the room influence. Most of what reaches your ears in the real world is reflected sound. Unfortunately, we don't want to measure the room, we want to measure the speaker, so I must drag my fat butt (apparently an angry butt) outside to get good data with a $5000 instrument (Clio). Then it gets challenged for being not like what Hsu measures with the cheapest of all available popular systems, LMS. LMS, not even set to maximum number of points, or high precision mode, or with the mike far enough away, or with the cabinet oriented in the position which will provide the greatest accuracy. WOW!! We get more bass than you! Sure you do. More you get, the more you $ell.

Then the forums rage with folks taking sides without having all the data, mush less sufficient experience. I may be a little angry, but frankly I am much more dissapointed. I remember one time spending 30 minutes in Frankfurt explaining to a dealer that if I can control the content of the power test signal, I can make that 500 Watt woofer fail with 100 Watts in or pass with 1000 watt signals. After a half hour of my time, he looks over to another salesman and says "500 Watts is 500 Watts". Should I be angry? Maybe, maybe not. Disappointed and feeling unappreciated for the effort put in, definitely. If I have so little expertise, why would Dr Hsu ask me to build drivers for him 10 years ago when I worked at American Speaker in San Fernando California? If there are differences in the numbers you need to ask why. But this is politics. Unless you guys follow the money, you will NEVER understand the why part.... This is a business guys.

If I can show you a curve at a low level that means I can make 20 Hz, and I neglect to mention it's not loud enough to give you 20-30 db of dynamic range at that frequency, am I a smart businessman for getting you a product that hits your pricepoint, or am I suckering you into buying an inferior product? One of my charges was to understand the design philosophy and intent in the product design. When I asked him those questions, the immediate and sole answer I got from Poh Hsu was "ROSEWOOD FOR $999". Guys, go figure it out. Here is your last clue...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ -http://www.linkedin.com/in/paulapollonio

 

[Sepen]

Paul,

You really need to get thicker skin. You really seem angry. And this tirade leaves me with a shaking head. I do appreciate all the work you put into the review, but you should have just left it at that. That is IMHO, regards

YUP. Indoors you get lots of room gain. Indoors with the mike even a couple of inches from the cone, you measure mostly the room influence. Most of what reaches your ears in the real world is reflected sound. Unfortunately, we don't want to measure the room, we want to measure the speaker, so I must drag my fat butt (apparently an angry butt) outside to get good data with a $5000 instrument (Clio). Then it gets challenged for being not like what Hsu measures with the cheapest of all available popular systems, LMS. LMS, not even set to maximum number of points, or high precision mode, or with the mike far enough away, or with the cabinet oriented in the position which will provide the greatest accuracy. WOW!! We get more bass than you! Sure you do. More you get, the more you $ell.

Then the forums rage with folks taking sides without having all the data, mush less sufficient experience. I may be a little angry, but frankly I am much more dissapointed. I remember one time spending 30 minutes in Frankfurt explaining to a dealer that if I can control the content of the power test signal, I can make that 500 Watt woofer fail with 100 Watts in or pass with 1000 watt signals. After a half hour of my time, he looks over to another salesman and says "500 Watts is 500 Watts". Should I be angry? Maybe, maybe not. Disappointed and feeling unappreciated for the effort put in, definitely. If I have so little expertise, why would Dr Hsu ask me to build drivers for him 10 years ago when I worked at American Speaker in San Fernando California? If there are differences in the numbers you need to ask why. But this is politics. Unless you guys follow the money, you will NEVER understand the why part.... This is a business guys.

If I can show you a curve at a low level that means I can make 20 Hz, and I neglect to mention it's not loud enough to give you 20-30 db of dynamic range at that frequency, am I a smart businessman for getting you a product that hits your pricepoint, or am I suckering you into buying an inferior product? One of my charges was to understand the design philosophy and intent in the product design. When I asked him those questions, the immediate and sole answer I got from Poh Hsu was "ROSEWOOD FOR $999". Guys, go figure it out. Here is your last clue...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ - http://www.linkedin.com/in/paulapollonio

 

[MinusTheBear]

YUP. Indoors you get lots of room gain. Indoors with the mike even a couple of inches from the cone, you measure mostly the room influence. Most of what reaches your ears in the real world is reflected sound. Unfortunately, we don't want to measure the room, we want to measure the speaker, so I must drag my fat butt (apparently an angry butt) outside to get good data with a $5000 instrument (Clio). Then it gets challenged for being not like what Hsu measures with the cheapest of all available popular systems, LMS. LMS, not even set to maximum number of points, or high precision mode, or with the mike far enough away, or with the cabinet oriented in the position which will provide the greatest accuracy. WOW!! We get more bass than you! Sure you do. More you get, the more you $ell.

Then the forums rage with folks taking sides without having all the data, mush less sufficient experience. I may be a little angry, but frankly I am much more dissapointed. I remember one time spending 30 minutes in Frankfurt explaining to a dealer that if I can control the content of the power test signal, I can make that 500 Watt woofer fail with 100 Watts in or pass with 1000 watt signals. After a half hour of my time, he looks over to another salesman and says "500 Watts is 500 Watts". Should I be angry? Maybe, maybe not. Disappointed and feeling unappreciated for the effort put in, definitely. If I have so little expertise, why would Dr Hsu ask me to build drivers for him 10 years ago when I worked at American Speaker in San Fernando California? If there are differences in the numbers you need to ask why. But this is politics. Unless you guys follow the money, you will NEVER understand the why part.... This is a business guys.

If I can show you a curve at a low level that means I can make 20 Hz, and I neglect to mention it's not loud enough to give you 20-30 db of dynamic range at that frequency, am I a smart businessman for getting you a product that hits your pricepoint, or am I suckering you into buying an inferior product? One of my charges was to understand the design philosophy and intent in the product design. When I asked him those questions, the immediate and sole answer I got from Poh Hsu was "ROSEWOOD FOR $999". Guys, go figure it out. Here is your last clue...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ - http://www.linkedin.com/in/paulapollonio

There are a lot of people that do appreciate the effort you put into these articles on subwoofers. I found it extremely educational and a great service to the audioholics community.

 

[Sputter]

Thanks for your reply Paul.
Clearly your knowledge is greater than mine, that's why I asked about the outside/indoor question. I can appreciate the work you've put into it.
I'm not a detractor, i'm just trying to understand.

Jim