HSU VTF-15H Subwoofer Review

K

khoncrete

Audiophyte
I saw a review from another site the other day where a little 10" sub had "usable" extension down to 18Hz and people were so pleased with that. What they didn't realize was the measurement was taken at 80dB 1 ft away. Honestly, it sometimes seems people only care about a pretty graph rather than understanding the usefulness of the measurement and what it means with the accompanying text.

Hi Gene, Thanks for all the hard work you guys do here at Audioholics.

I believe the little 10" sub you are refering to is the Paradigm Seismic 110 and I agree with your assesment. I had the opportunity to demo the Seismic 110 and yes it is a beast of a little sub but when directly compared to a Paradigm DSP 3200 there was a noticable loss in authority and overall extention. The 10" driver just couldn't fill the room the same way a 12" driver can and if I had made my purchase soley on the "review" of the Seismic 110 I would have made a huge mistake.
 
S

Sepen

Junior Audioholic
I just reread the entire review again and didn't see a sloppy comment, "While the output was sufficient, I would not describe the bass as tight or well controlled." was what was actually written.

Although it wasn't tested with one port closed it is inferred that it may actually sound better at a cost of spl's. What I was looking for was a good sounding sub, not a monster spl machine. I am sure that with the available options on it most will find enough spl and sound quality with a great price to boot.

Overall I think that the review was excellently written, it provided us an abundance of both positives and negatives while also stating that with multi tune options that one would get lower extension and possibly tighter sound.

It is $879, the Rythmik is $1199 and the SVS $1349, all before shipping. It sounds like a winner in my book.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I think I figured out the problem with Audioholics reviews.
It has to do with the first page. You get a summary and a pros and cons column and for most that's all they really read, including myself.
Now when you get to the meat of the review and in the traditional audioholics style, things starts getting complicated (big words, numbers and formulas are used). And some of us just glaze over the words and go to the end.
When you have performance rating bars that show the HSU having only 4 bars and the Emotiva having 5, without really reading and understanding the meat of the review, one would think the Emotiva is the superior product.
It's not the reviewer's fault that some readers are lazy but hey, this is life if you have pictures and words, pictures win.
I think I figured out the problem with most consumers. It's like the guy here that purchased a $7K Samsung Plasma and likened the 80 page user guide (with a ton of graphics, not just dense text) as having to read a 'Novel'.

He burns the display and goes ape. First three pages in the user guide talk explicitly to burn in.

Same goes for the reviews. If you are a serious consumer with $900-$1500 to spend and can't take the time to read a thorough review of some products, well a fool and their money are quickly parted.

If there is terminology in the review you don't understand (that means it exceeds your technical means) then ask. That is the entire purpose of forums like AH.
 
S

sharkman

Full Audioholic
I think I figured out the problem with Audioholics reviews.
It has to do with the first page. You get a summary and a pros and cons column and for most that's all they really read, including myself.
Now when you get to the meat of the review and in the traditional audioholics style, things starts getting complicated (big words, numbers and formulas are used). And some of us just glaze over the words and go to the end.
When you have performance rating bars that show the HSU having only 4 bars and the Emotiva having 5, without really reading and understanding the meat of the review, one would think the Emotiva is the superior product.
It's not the reviewer's fault that some readers are lazy but hey, this is life if you have pictures and words, pictures win.
I think for the most part the visitors to sites like these are more discerning than you suppose.

In reading this review, I also noticed that the crossover range is criticized, calling it his biggest criticism of the amplifier. The range is 30 - 90 Hz, but absolutely no mention is made of the fact that you can also defeat the crossover entirely and have the AVR or whatever set the range. I can't see where the reviewer made mention of this, but if you can defeat the sub crossover when needed then that seems to solve the issue.

For those who are interested, you might want to keep that in mind.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
In reading this review, I also noticed that the crossover range is criticized, calling it his biggest criticism of the amplifier. The range is 30 - 90 Hz, but absolutely no mention is made of the fact that you can also defeat the crossover entirely and have the AVR or whatever set the range. I can't see where the reviewer made mention of this, but if you can defeat the sub crossover when needed then that seems to solve the issue.

For those who are interested, you might want to keep that in mind.
Paul didn't have an AVR with bass management facilities. I added the workaround on his other reviews and swore I did to this one as well. I will add some text in that respect. I agree, bass management from an AVR should almost always be used instead of the internal xover of the sub.

Update:

Paul did address this as indicated below
While not the path I would have taken in the design of this product, I will bow to Poh Hsu's expertise on his own market, and assume of the majority of the buyers for this product will have full range systems having no problem with an 80 Hz crossover point or simply don't own small 4 or 5 inch full range tops that would benefit from that higher crossover point. It is also possible the majority of those purchasing this subwoofer will have an external bass management system, and so be prepared for almost any combination of components.

If you plan on using the Hsu with a bass management system, and are new to them, Gene DellaSala has written some excellent articles on this topic, which can be found here:

Hometheater Multiple Subwoofer & Setup Guide

Bass Management Basics - Settings Made Simple

Basic Subwoofer Setup Guide Not for Dummies


I added the following statement for clarity
Like with all subs used in a home theater environment, we highly recommend utilizing the internal bass management and level control of your A/V processor and either bypassing the sub's internal filters or using them in conjunction (if needed) to ensure the best integration with your speaker system.
 
Sugarbear

Sugarbear

Junior Audioholic
I have a lot of respect for how AH will take reasonable criticism on board.

Keep up the good work, fellas.
 
S

sharkman

Full Audioholic
Thanks for clarifying that. I had to dig into the manual to find that you had the option of setting the crossover switch to "out" which lets the AVR handle the crossover. Or you can set the switch to "in", which then employs the sub's crossover.

I am considering a new sub as my old Paradigm PS1000 is getting long in the tooth, and the internet companies seem to offer the best bang for buck. It's tough, though, because you can't audition them, but that's why sites like this one are so beneficial.
 
B

bobr1952

Audiophyte
Well I'm glad I waited for the review--and after reading it as well as the comments, the 15H is a great sub IMHO. But I was on the fence with this and the PB12-Plus and now I am leaning towards the SVS side. :)
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Well I'm glad I waited for the review--and after reading it as well as the comments, the 15H is a great sub IMHO. But I was on the fence with this and the PB12-Plus and now I am leaning towards the SVS side. :)
you forgot the last contestant ;p
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
subwoofer that HSU makes is not recommended for home theater use is quite significant....
Nowhere in this review does it say the HSU sub is NOT recommended for Hometheater usage.

Here is Paul's direct quote:

This box (in my opinion) is best for music, and while it will work for home theater, if you absolutely have to get that 20 Hz tone in your living room, be prepared to spend more $$ and get a system with a bigger amplifier, or do as Dr Hsu recommends and place the box in the room corner if at all possible. Perhaps HSU will consider offering a hot rod version of this product (bigger amp, bigger driver motor) at a slight cost adder to those bass heads really wanting uncompromised true 20Hz extension.
 
T

Tdekany

Junior Audioholic
Nowhere in this review does it say the HSU sub is NOT recommended for Hometheater usage.

Here is Paul's direct quote:

This box (in my opinion) is best for music, and while it will work for home theater, if you absolutely have to get that 20 Hz tone in your living room, be prepared to spend more $$ and get a system with a bigger amplifier, or do as Dr Hsu recommends and place the box in the room corner if at all possible. Perhaps HSU will consider offering a hot rod version of this product (bigger amp, bigger driver motor) at a slight cost adder to those bass heads really wanting uncompromised true 20Hz extension.
Many many years ago I bought 1 of the first run of the stf 3 that was tuned to 18Hz. Right before I moved cross country I was stupid enough to sell it.

Boy, Dr Hsu spends 2 years on this thing and it "sounds" like it belongs in a retail store, and not really a competition to the other offerings from the ID companies.

Oh well. :eek:

PS: I do appreciate what you guys are doing here and these reviews. I have my eyes on a Rhythmik offering, just need to save up.
 
dalumberjack

dalumberjack

Audioholic
I think it was a good review.

People need to realize that it was done with two ports open. Just imagine what possible results he could of gotten with 1 port closed. OR like Dr. HSU says you can do, 1 port closed but the switch on the amp set to two ports open for more spl but still a bottom end.

Thats the great thing about these subs is that there are many different ways to run them. Now the reviewer couldn't test this sub in all these different ways. Probably didn't have the time and it would be unfair to the other subs as their are not as flexible as this subwoofer is.

People should not be down playing this su0 downb. Read the review, then read the possible tuning methods for this sub and answer your own questions. 20Hz or a little below is obtainable. If I can obtain it with my vtf 3.3's you can too with your vtf-15H. And don't forget the price!
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Boy, Dr Hsu spends 2 years on this thing and it "sounds" like it belongs in a retail store, and not really a competition to the other offerings from the ID companies.
:rolleyes:

Find me a sub $1000 retail store sub that can even do 110db at any frequency, never mind 121. AND sound decent doing it.

puh lease. The only retail store sub worth a damn would likely be the infinity 12" and even that is likely not getting the best performance out of its driver because it must be small enough to sell.

Retail store = 8 inch ported mini subs that are lucky to hit 100 db in a living room, tuned around 35hz.
 
S

Sepen

Junior Audioholic
I just posted this at AVS, Pete posted that he will comment later.

If you look at the manual it states :

1) Ported Max Output Mode: 2 ports open, and operating mode switch set to ‘EQ2”. This mode is ideal for those with medium-to-large
room sizes who listen at high playback levels and want the strongest mid-bass possible. NOTE: Never operate the subwoofer with 2
ports open and operating mode switch set to ‘EQ1’, as this may damage the driver and void the warranty.
2) Ported Max Extension Mode: 1 port open, and operating mode switch set to ‘EQ1’. This mode is ideal for those with medium-to-large
room sizes, or small to medium rooms but who listen at low-to-moderate playback levels where the rising low bass from room gain
will help compensate for the ear’s insensitivity to bass at lower levels.
3) Ported Max Headroom Mode: 1 port open, and operating mode switch set to ‘EQ2’. This mode is ideal for those with medium-tolarge room sizes who listen at high playback levels and want the deepest bass extension.

The way I read it I would select either option #2 or #3. The reviewer
obviously had it in 1.


I think it was a good review.

People need to realize that it was done with two ports open. Just imagine what possible results he could of gotten with 1 port closed. OR like Dr. HSU says you can do, 1 port closed but the switch on the amp set to two ports open for more spl but still a bottom end.

Thats the great thing about these subs is that there are many different ways to run them. Now the reviewer couldn't test this sub in all these different ways. Probably didn't have the time and it would be unfair to the other subs as their are not as flexible as this subwoofer is.

People should not be down playing this su0 downb. Read the review, then read the possible tuning methods for this sub and answer your own questions. 20Hz or a little below is obtainable. If I can obtain it with my vtf 3.3's you can too with your vtf-15H. And don't forget the price!
 
T

templemaners

Senior Audioholic
I just posted this at AVS, Pete posted that he will comment later.

If you look at the manual it states :

1) Ported Max Output Mode: 2 ports open, and operating mode switch set to ‘EQ2”. This mode is ideal for those with medium-to-large
room sizes who listen at high playback levels and want the strongest mid-bass possible. NOTE: Never operate the subwoofer with 2
ports open and operating mode switch set to ‘EQ1’, as this may damage the driver and void the warranty.
2) Ported Max Extension Mode: 1 port open, and operating mode switch set to ‘EQ1’. This mode is ideal for those with medium-to-large
room sizes, or small to medium rooms but who listen at low-to-moderate playback levels where the rising low bass from room gain
will help compensate for the ear’s insensitivity to bass at lower levels.
3) Ported Max Headroom Mode: 1 port open, and operating mode switch set to ‘EQ2’. This mode is ideal for those with medium-tolarge room sizes who listen at high playback levels and want the deepest bass extension.

The way I read it I would select either option #2 or #3. The reviewer
obviously had it in 1.

It's true you may have gotten better extension results with using one port open, but I think the reviewer was trying to keep some consistancy between the subs. Maybe it would have been a better option to show the different modes had this not been a shootout style review, but it is what it is.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Why'd he bother designing the ULS-15 then? Odd.
I'm not saying those frequencies don't matter. I want reprodctuion at 12hz @ 115db @ very low THD @ seating position. But Specifically Dr HSU prefers a certain price point and would trade the deepest of the deep to hit that price point:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1_about.html

He proposed that 25 Hz provided the best overall audible performance. While we were initially surprised at this recommendation, Dr. Hsu pointed out that when customers have the ability to adjust port frequency, 25 Hz was the most frequently chosen setting, regardless of the capabilities of the system. The reason for this is simple: 99.9% of all deep bass (in music and movie soundtracks) never goes below 25 Hz. Since this setting means that no low frequency would ever be perceived as missing (and of course the physical component of deep bass response would still be there) we capitalized on this design philosophy to develop tight accurate bass response. At the end of the day, Dr. Hsu was correct. Our listening tests ¨ and yours ¨ will bear out the fact that an optimized 25 Hz design is far more important than simply being able to claim 18 Hz reproduction.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Can't seem to win with anyone in this business.

WE do our best to strike a balance between the manufacturers, consumers and people writing the reviews.

If a review is too positive, we get accused of it being a "paid' review. If a review is too negative, it offends the owners of said product while also offending the manufacturer. If we smooth out the reviewers comments that may be offensive too much, the reviewer feels like his integrity was compromised.

I will go back and soften words like "sloppy" as I don't want owners to be offended, nor do I want to have to defend every comment made in the review. People are fixated on a few poorly chosen words taken out of context for argument points in a discussion thread.

The HSU sub is a much different animal than the little Emotiva sub. Paul tends to be a very critical reviewer. I am more forgiving and tend to favor smaller subs over max SPL and extension just b/c I feel they are more practical. Just b/c a small inexpensive sub like the Emo got a 4.5/5 performance, doesn't mean it outperforms the larger more capable HSU sub that got a 4/4 for performance. The ratings are based on category of product and price points.

As a reader, I'd hope people could figure that out without it having to be spelled out to them.

I saw a review from another site the other day where a little 10" sub had "usable" extension down to 18Hz and people were so pleased with that. What they didn't realize was the measurement was taken at 80dB 1 ft away. Honestly, it sometimes seems people only care about a pretty graph rather than understanding the usefulness of the measurement and what it means with the accompanying text.

I haven't even checked AVS as I am sure HSU owners there are livid and hating on this review. Sorry to all HSU owners whom are offended but I stand by Paul's assessment that this sub is a great value but lacks the bottom end extension of the larger more expensive subs he compared it to. Plugging one port may add a bit more extension, but at an SPL trade off. There are no free lunches.

Dr. HSU did an amazing job on this product at its price point. He should be commended for his efforts at bringing high performance products to the market at affordable prices. No product is perfect however and I'd personally love to see a higher end more powerful model offered by HSU Research in the near future.
I think you worry too much about negative reactions to reviews. One might hope that "As a reader, I'd hope people could figure that out without it having to be spelled out to them", but that is but a hope. Anyone who imagines the review was trashing the subwoofer needs to learn to read. Here are some choice quotes for them:

Weighing in at 123lbs and costing $879 for the black finish, it was hands down, the “BEST BUY” of the group of subs we compared. HSU demonstrated strong engineering, excellent integration of the sub with the power amp and cabinet, and a surprising amount of output from the system given the relatively low output capacity of the amplifier used. The VTF-15H is an excellent example of what can be done when you attempt to squeeze the last bit of performance from a modest budget.​

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/vtf-15h

Frankly, for a subwoofer, as long as the cone won't break from the stress of forces, anything commonly used if made of a sufficient thickness (which for different materials means a different mass of course) is going to be pistonic, a term meaning it will act like an air pump, and simply push and pull the air alternately setting up those low frequency waves we enjoy so much. Even paper is hard enough to be acting like a simple piston (what you want) at subwoofer frequencies.​

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/vtf-15h/vtf-15h-introduction

In other words, there is nothing wrong with using paper for the cone material, so people who are upset that the review said it was paper really need to pay more attention. Plus, of course, are they unable to see that it is paper when they look at it, so they are offended when someone tells them what it is? Really, people being upset by this is ridiculous.


As an engineer whose entire career has rested on product development, and having designed dozens if not hundreds of powered subwoofers since the late 80's, I can say without reservation the Hsu Research is an excellent effort on a shoestring budget.​

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/vtf-15h/vtf-15h-conclusion


everyone looking for a bargain, anyone in the market for a $900 to $1000 subwoofer would be foolish to not consider the Hsu Research VTF-15H. It is an excellent example of what can be done when you attempt to squeeze the last bit of performance from a modest budget.​

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/vtf-15h/vtf-15h-conclusion

If anyone imagines the review is trashing the subwoofer when it said that it is the best subwoofer tested at its price point, really must have very poor reading skills.

The fact that it isn't as good as much more expensive subwoofers should not surprise anyone. It would be ridiculous to expect that it would be the best subwoofer ever made, given how much more some subwoofers cost.

I imagine the subwoofer won't cure cancer or fill out one's tax forms either, and now some damn fool may imagine that in saying that, I am slamming the subwoofer.

Don't let people upset you when they demonstrate a lack of reading skills and crazy ideas of what can be done at some price point.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Careful how you word this without adding all the explanations as to why...... My room with open area's is well over 15000^3... Not the norm for anyone by any stretch... Plus the fact that I should have gone ported for the room size or some other alignment that would have been more efficient but I chose sealed because thats the sound signature I prefer, that was my choice. You put a 18" in a reasonable size room (small to med) 1 x 18" will be more then adequate for HT... I'll have an LMS in my 1700^3 room soon enough, with room gain it will be more then adequate in hitting 10hz.... More then plenty for HT IMO...
I could have worded it better but my implication was mainly that "enough" depends on more than just the size of the driver. Sorry, but a 21" PA driver with extention to 45hz and 6mm of xmax isn't enough in any room for HT.

You have to experiment and you have to factor everything in.
 

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