How to get my "slam" back?

[rom3]

Long time lurker here. I don't post much but read the site regularly and try to learn all I can. I recently had to (wanted to?) change my setup (dog knocked over one of my front main speakers too many times , and the amp in my sub fried) and haven't been able to recreate the sound I was accustomed to with the new setup. See below for info on before/after setups.

While I generally have good things to say about the NHT Absolute Towers (as recommended here on Audioholics), what's missing is the "punch" or "slam" that can be felt in the chest from the drums (rock, "smooth jazz", etc.). I've got decent low end for the kick drum and low bass with the 2 SVS subs (but it could be better). What is missing is the punch from the rest of the drums ("toms" and snare). Like most, I've got nulls and modes in my room that interfere with the bass. I've tried (novice here) to use REW to find the best positions for the subs and F/R speakers that give the smoothest response possible given the room interactions and use Audyssey XT32 with sub EQ as well. That has tamed a lot of the issues I had with "muddy" bass.

My initial thought is that the NHT's don't have enough cone area (is that the right term?) in the woofers, and maybe, the mids. Where in the frequency range / speakers are those sounds produced? Does the subwoofer create those, or is that more of the L/R woofers? Assume a crossover of 80 Hz.

I'm willing to upgrade my front L/R speakers if that is the key. The Ascend Sierra-1 towers (~US $2,000/pair) were looking very tempting to me but appear to be the same speaker as the Absolute towers "on paper" with the same cone area in the woofers (2 x 5.25") and mid driver (1 x 5.25"). The Aperion Verus II Grand tower (~US $2,300/pair) is my next choice. They have larger woofers (2 x 6" woofers) and 1 more midrange driver (2 x 5" midrange), but at 65 lbs a piece, I'm balking at these as I'm getting to the age where I cannot easily move these things around anymore.

Am I on the right track? What else is out there in this price range that would help with the missing "punch"/"slam"? Thanks!

Data:
Room size: W19' x L16' x H9' = 2,736 Ft^3, 1/2 of rear wall is a half wall open to kitchen, 1/3 of right wall is open to front hallway

Music is priority vs. movies (95% music listening).

REW has been utilized to find best locations for subs and L/R speakers.

Old setup
AVR: Denon 3805
Room correction: None
Amp: None
Sub: 1 x HSU VTF 3 Mk II (I think it was Mk II, cerca 2006)
L/R Speakers: Axiom M60 1st gen, Woofer: 2 x 6.5", Mid: 1 x 5.25", weight: 47.6 lbs.
Bass Management: L/R Speakers "small", xover 80Hz

New setup
AVR: Denon X4100
Room correction: Audyssey XT32 (includes dual Sub EQ), Reference curve, Dynamic EQ on - offset 10dB, Dynamic Volume off
Amp: Outlaw Model 5000, L/C/R channels connected
Sub: 2 x SVS SB2000
L/R Speakers: 2 x NHT Absolute Tower, Woofer: 2 x 5.25", Mid: 1 x 5.25", weight: 35.6 lbs.
Bass Management: L/R Speakers "small", xover 90-120Hz (still playing with this)

 

[j_garcia]

Slam is generally not considered a "good" thing as it sort of represents a bump in response, but I know what you are talking about. Generally speaking, when you move to a flatter response, you will lose some of that slam. Sounds like you have adequate power, so I'd have to say a speaker wiith more oomph might benefit you.

You can't go by driver size as to how capable a given speaker is, because drivers can be vastly different, as well as the speaker's design. Unfortunately, you'd have to listen to them or try to get some feedback from others that own them, ideally it would need to be in your room.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

SB2000 is nice tiny sub, but it has it's limits on pure output. I couldn't find measurements for mk2, but very similar mk3 has up to 107db in 40hz (max output mode) where a single SB2000 does "only" 100db.
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/sv-sound-svs-sb-pb-2000
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/vtf-3-mk3-sub/vtf-3-mk3-measurements-analysis
both done at 2m groundplane outdoors
Putting both SB2000 at same wall will give you extra 3db, on top of each other - upto 6db.
As you can see - in aspect of pure bass performance - you sort of downgraded.

Without changing the equipment, I recommend to run your subs "hot" - ie - after room correction done, turn level on each sub about 3db up. that might bring some of that "slam" back.
Also don't be shy to try turning xover to 100-120 hz

 

[lovinthehd]

Are you using the Dynamic EQ function in the avr (along with RLO settings for music)? Might try that if you haven't....

 

[shadyJ]

Agreed with the above. The 'slam' is likely from 90 Hz to 150 Hz, especially with your comment about toms. Try experimenting with different crossover points that are well above 80 Hz. If you can, post a frequency response of your listening position so we can see what is going on.

 

[rom3]

Thanks all for your help! Please see my responses below.

Slam is generally not considered a "good" thing as it sort of represents a bump in response, but I know what you are talking about. Generally speaking, when you move to a flatter response, you will lose some of that slam. Sounds like you have adequate power, so I'd have to say a speaker wiith more oomph might benefit you.

You can't go by driver size as to how capable a given speaker is, because drivers can be vastly different, as well as the speaker's design. Unfortunately, you'd have to listen to them or try to get some feedback from others that own them, ideally it would need to be in your room.

Good advice.

SB2000 is nice tiny sub, but it has it's limits on pure output. I couldn't find measurements for mk2, but very similar mk3 has up to 107db in 40hz (max output mode) where a single SB2000 does "only" 100db.
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/sv-sound-svs-sb-pb-2000
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/vtf-3-mk3-sub/vtf-3-mk3-measurements-analysis
both done at 2m groundplane outdoors
Putting both SB2000 at same wall will give you extra 3db, on top of each other - upto 6db.
As you can see - in aspect of pure bass performance - you sort of downgraded.

Without changing the equipment, I recommend to run your subs "hot" - ie - after room correction done, turn level on each sub about 3db up. that might bring some of that "slam" back.
Also don't be shy to try turning xover to 100-120 hz

As I am more interested in music (not cathedral pipe organ stuff with the super low notes ) rather than movies, I thought the SB2000's would suffice as I'm thinking 50Hz and up should cover the range needed? I do experiment with bumping the sub levels up and changing the xover. I used 120 Hz for a while with subs in different location which was better than 80 or 90. I had one sub directly behind me about 3' away and the other ahead of me in the left corner about 12' away. The sound was good but made me feel like my left ear was clogged up (the highs seemed muffled in the left channel and bright in the right channel). After I moved the rear sub to my front right, that effect disappeared so trying to work with the new location. Might move both behind me and see what happens. I'm using 90 Hz xover now because that's what the REW graphs looked the best. Will try to post some graphs next post.

Are you using the Dynamic EQ function in the avr (along with RLO settings for music)? Might try that if you haven't....

Yes, I am using Dynamic EQ. The 10 dB offset sounds the best. The 5 and 0 are too bass heavy but still don't have the "punchiness" I like.

Agreed with the above. The 'slam' is likely from 90 Hz to 150 Hz, especially with your comment about toms. Try experimenting with different crossover points that are well above 80 Hz. If you can, post a frequency response of your listening position so we can see what is going on.

I'm using 90 Hz xover now because that's what the REW graphs showed to look the best. Will try to post some graphs next post.

 

[rom3]

Left channel at various xover points (no Audyssey):
blue: 80Hz
black: 90Hz
magenta: 100Hz
green: 110Hz
orange: 120Hz

right channel at various xover points(no Audyssey):
blue: 80Hz
black: 90Hz
magenta: 100Hz
green: 110Hz
orange: 120Hz

blue: left channel, 90 Hz xover
green: right channel, 90 Hz xover
black: average of right and left, 90 Hz xover
(no Audyssey)

 

[shadyJ]

The black line looks the best, although that is a very heavily smoothed curve. You might think about just running the subs hot to get more punch.

 

[j_garcia]

In all my previous setups I ended up running the sub a little hot. In my current config and with the UMC-200, Emo-Q calibrates it hot and I ended up dialing it back. It is OK for movies, but too much for music, so I have a separate setting for music. Will see what the MC-700 does.

 

[TLS Guy]

It is hard to know what you mean by slam. However if you mean the proper balance of the crack of the stick and the drum resonance then I suspect your speakers are wanting.

Your speakers are about 10 years old I suspect, so I'm guessing you bought them used.

The design is an acoustic suspension speaker apparently. This means a high Q bass drivers in a sealed box. This is not an approach I favor. Those speakers always sound very muffled and not at all realistic to me. It is not a design approach I favor at all. Fortunately is now falling far from grace.

In addition those speakers have a very poor bass response the F6 is 67 db! Most fairly small bookshelves can do better than that.

In addition I note measurements show severe time shifts between woofers mids and tweeters. Now I know it is said this is of little consequence. However I believe this is not true. I don't believe you can play fast and loose with phase/time in a speaker and an awful lot do. You can see the impulse of those speakers goes on for an eternity.

Apart from that the speakers measure well. However this issue is an area where I believe standard measurements do not come close to telling even half the story.

I think I know exactly what you are complaining about with those speakers. I don't think anything you do will make you happy with them.

Getting the balance right of drums so that crack and bang are in proportion and properly timed so drum reproduction sounds totally realistic is actually very difficult and something very few speakers truly accomplish. I strongly suspect your speakers do not come within striking distance. (Pun intended).

 

[rom3]

Thanks for your help, TLS Guy! I didn't realize this speaker had been around for so long. I bought them new directly from NHT last year although I see they are no longer listed on their website. Must not have been very popular.

I knew about the lack of bass from the review here at Audioholics: http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/nht-absolute-tower

but they seemed generally pleased with the speaker's performance and how easily it would mate with a subwoofer: "......the seamless integration with the subwoofer was easy. I set the subwoofer to an 80Hz crossover point, level matched using a calibrated RTA and was on my way in just a few minutes. The clean and fast bass response of these speakers was excellent."

Would you say I'd be better served with a ported design? Anything else to look for in a speaker. You mention phase above, so I should pay attention to that in the future. I plan to use subwoofers with whatever I go with as I feel I'm able to get the bass to be more even across the listening area that way due to placement issues/limitations with the L/R speakers.

 

[KenM10759]

I wonder how those speakers compare with my wimpy little KEF R500's because drums is something these seem to do exceptionally well. Phil Collins whacking the Simmons sounds just incredible....to me.

(and the R500 blend so seamlessly with my SB2000!)

 

[Old bassman]

Rom3 - I know this is old and you already have speakers, what did you buy? I just couldn't help but notice that your old set up (3805) is very similar to my own, as are your room dimensions. I was a long time stickler for the 60HZ crossover, there is no doubt that your charts are beautiful but I discovered the light of higher crossovers entirely by accident.
One sad day I blew the tweets out of my revels, while waiting for the replacement parts I was lucky enough to pick some old paradigm 11SE at a moving sale, they are currently paired with twin servo 15's that match up very well.
Going from a high tech multi driver mid size speaker to an old school dual 8" with a single 3rd order crossover seemed like a huge downgrade for me, but strangely my system totally opened up after a room EQ setting the crossover much higher than normal (150HZ) I have moved to 120HZ manually now.
A whole new world of crisp clear sound reminiscent of the old days when sansui amps ruled and theil was still a thing came back to me. Somehow against all odds these oldies found the resonance of my room. I have not even repatriated the revels as I enjoy the old school sound so much.

My point is the newer expensive multi driver speakers may not be all they are hyped up to be. Just like old big displacement motors, other than the gas they kick @ss.

 

[Old bassman]

{P.S}
Engineers will confirm displacement of volume is king.
Credit to previous poster, very comprehensive description, also to all the follow up comments.
Everyone has a perspective, that's what makes sound so diverse, preference.
Mine was changed mainstream cool and new to classic audiophile entirely by accident.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1230704-8-inch-woofer-based-speakers-vs-5-25-smaller.html

 

[rom3]

Old bassman: I ended up getting the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers and am quite pleased with them. They gave me the punch I was looking for with the drums and bass guitar. The mids are very detailed, "dynamic" and realistic. The highs are good but nothing special in my opinion. I did upgrade to the RAAL ribbon tweeters. I wish I could listen side by side with the standard tweeter to see if there is significant (and better to my ears) difference.

I grew up on speakers with single 12" woofers and was skeptical at first about the newer speakers with multiple smaller woofers, but I've warmed to the idea of mating this style speaker with a sub or 2. If you're lucky, and the best spot in your room for the woofers happens to be in the same place as your speakers, you're set with a large woofer speaker and no sub(s). Me, not so lucky.

In my case, after much experimentation, I ended up putting my 2 subs behind my seating position (rear wall is about 6' behind my couch, one sub to the left in a corner and one sub to the right about 1/3 of the way from right wall). The Denon time aligns them just fine with the main speakers up front. I go back and forth on crossover, Audyssey reference/off, Audyssey dynamic EQ on/off. I've settled on Audyssey Left/Right bypass, Audyssey Dynamic EQ off with a crossover of 120Hz. Sounds really good now! But alas, the sickness will probably continue, and I'll be fiddling with this or that or wonder whether I could get even better speakers or subs... Ha ha!

 

[Old bassman]

Nice looking speakers, never heard of them before but according to the specs they dig deep and certainly should get your slam back. Lightweight cones, high quality magnets delivering very stable tight on axis response. Do you like them? You should if they are anywhere near as good as what the specs indicate.

I have owned ribbon tweeters in the past myself and had the same reaction, nothing wrong but expected more, I guess that's why they are still a rarity. I think the best impact I ever heard were horn loaded tweeters but those particular speakers were huge and required a lot of power before they really came alive. Silk dome tweets are a good combination of laid back and increasing clarity with volume. Good luck with the positioning, I have moved speakers around more than a moving company trying to get them perfect. Same with the crossover, it is interesting that we both found 120Hz sounded nice in our rooms. Good luck, thanks in advance for the response. Were they worth $2700, I would have said my revels were ($3200) until I got these old paradigms for ten cents on the dollar.

 

[rom3]

I have owned ribbon tweeters in the past myself and had the same reaction, nothing wrong but expected more

Yup!

I would say these are the best speakers I have ever owned/heard, but then again, small sample size. I would buy them again, but suspect I would be just as happy with the standard tweeters for $700 less. Ascend Acoustics are regularly recommended around here. Here are the speakers I've had to compare to:

• some "Jensen" speakers (12" woofers)
• JBL "studio monitors" 4312b (12" woofers), rocked these in college and first house and thought they were the end all be all
• Axiom Audio M60 (dual 6.5"? woofers), these surprised me that they could play as low as the JBL's, I remember being very happy with these until my puppy knocked them over several times damaging them (still love that lil' guy)
• NHT Absolute Towers (dual 5.25" woofers), poor bass (but I new that going in), great high end, lacked dynamics, mid-range good not great
• Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower (dual 5.25" woofers), all around very good to great, good bass, excellent mid-range, good to very good high-end, great dynamics (drums)

It's funny you mentioned Sansui. I remember my Dad had a Sansui receiver that I first learned what hi-fi was all about. That thing lasted forever and would probably still be running if we didn't get rid of it when they had to downsize. Back then we were playing LP records and had no idea that digital/CD's were coming.

Forgot to mention: I'm not sure which Revel's you had that blew the tweeters, but Revel F206/F208's were my first choice at the time I was thinking to buy new speakers, but I couldn't find a dealer near me to audition/buy from.

 

[Old bassman]

For reference I am Canadian, different pricing and selections available here.

My first system after University had four JVC Sk 700 II speakers (3 way 10",5",1"), this was the best thing in the world. Prior to that my Dad had one of those stereos that looked like furniture, he played Peter Gunn and Elvis, so just about anything would have been the bomb.

That's when I got the sansui amp and upgraded to my first "real" speakers, the famous ribbon tweeter sony SS-967's (10",4", x1"). But I wanted more, Adcom 555 and Altec Lansing 14's with the horn tweeter, this was the biggest and loudest ever. I even special ordered a CD player from Europe just so I could have one!

Then lots of vintage, AR 60's, NHT superzero, Koss M80 plus, PSB century 600i, paradigm 5seMK3 and many, many others. This list does not even touch the commercial amps (TOA P-924's) array speakers and separates, Alpha, NIkko, NAD, Macintosh and others I have played with.

In the end, less was more. Just a simple Denon AVR-3805 paired with the Revel F35, (very similar to your Ascend speakers) and twin Paradigm servo-15's (ibid). The new mains are 20 year old paradigm 11SE speakers and currently winning in the slam competition. The Revels may go the same way as your NHT's.

I really do need to do some side by side listening competition as it has been a few months since I heard the Revels in their true form. The tweet was dead in one speaker for nearly six months before I broke the bank to get a new pair, and it took another six weeks to get here. If price was not an issue I would probably still like the Revel but...who knows. Sometimes old stuff is just better, that's why I am still using the 3805, I have used newer HDMI amps and threw them back.

As for obtrusiveness, these are shorter and fatter but not noticeably larger.
Paradigm - 39.75" × 11.75" × 14.25"
Revel - 44.25" x 9.65"x 12.2" — Including Feet