How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

[GranteedEV]

The opinions of a few about how DIY or ID is supposedly better than B&M and which one is more cost effective isn't helping the OP.

He probably just wants to know the basic differences among all the speaker types - pros and cons.

I think what Herbu needs to do, is give us some listening feedback.

 

[Swerd]

Actually, I did an open-back mid 3-way version of the Ellis 1801 a good piece before the Statement was designed. I still use it in my HT setup, which you may have seen in my basement. But the success of the Statement certainly encouraged me to carry over that approach in the Phil 3.

Yes, you're right. That has to be part of the evolution of the open-back mid range concept. Didn't Dave Ellis give you those cabinets years ago as a thank you gift?

Come to think of it, I forgot to mention that the Philharmonic Slim Tower also has an open backed mid range with the same variable fill arrangement.

As compensation for all my unbilled marketing efforts, where's that 35% discount ?

 

[c2k]

I think what Herbu needs to do, is give us some listening feedback.

I agree. Herbu give us some listening feedback.

A lot of discussion already

 

[Swerd]

You would faint if I told you how much the diamond dome actually costs.


Lets just say it is in the wire category for rip off markup.

What ! And shatter another illusion about the real value of audio jewelry?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Wait. I thought Harman use their own drivers. Are they now using "off-the-shelf" drivers too?

The Stereophile review said the drivers were made to Revel's specifications. How GranteedEV knows what brand and model they are is a bit of a mystery.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

What ! And shatter another illusion about the real value of audio jewelry?

Lets just say that I'm looking into it and it would not push up the raw cost by much more than $30 a piece.

The Revel drivers are an interesting example.

There are only so many quality transducer build houses. I work with one that is not so well known on purpose. He likes it that way.

And the Europeans have setup some pretty tight QC factories over here. Or have been purchased by progressive Chinese vendors. The driver market is shifting as of late.

And don't kid yourself about what is made where.

I'm on the campus of the largest audio grade steel forger in China. There is a list as long as my arm of vendors that "make their own" having their steel parts forged here.

And they get daily delivery of at least 8 semi truck loads of steel. Some serious amounts of work over here.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think what Herbu needs to do, is give us some listening feedback.

This is the question Herbu posed.

[h=1]How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?[/h]He did not ask which ones are any good, but I think he wants to know how he can make an intelligent purchase.

This thread has gone off track because their are no good answers to his question.

Options.

Audition what you can audition locally. In most places that is a short list.

Plane tickets and or long car drives.

See if you can audition in someones home. Probably not much choice here.

Order from ID companies and hope you get lucky. To survey the field you will keep UPS and FedEx busy. If the speaker is a monster freight companies like Magnum will be kept busy.
Probably a slipped disc also in your future.

ADG method: - Buy a bunch of speakers, find you don't really like any of them. Sell the lot at a loss and get something else.

After that DIY looks a lot easier to me to get the sound you crave. You will learn a lot on the way and develop skills.

Any other suggestions?

 

[c2k]

Funk Audio Offers In-Home Demos

In Home Demo - Funk Audio

Acu tried this one. If you are willing to spend that much, you should try this one since it is representative of what the ones higher in Funk's line does minus Bass Extension and output.
ADTG left the review on the below link:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/89486-funk-audio-6-1p-monitors.html

I like the sound of this speaker a lot and I am using the same drivers for my LA from Nathan.
You can see the process on the below thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/91593-funk-audio-line-array-6.html

 

[charmerci]

I have noticed if you feel like you keep needing to turn up the volue, you need better speakers, when I listen to some speakers I keep turning it up, and up, and up and then I realize no matter how loud it is, its NOT going to sound good, you are turning it up to get more from something that doesn't have "it".....

That's weird, for me it's the inverse. The worse something sounds, the quieter I listen. The better a system sounds, the more that volume knob keeps creeping up!

 

[Irvrobinson]

This is the question Herbu posed.

How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

He did not ask which ones are any good, but I think he wants to know how he can make an intelligent purchase.

This thread has gone off track because their are no good answers to his question.

Options.

Audition what you can audition locally. In most places that is a short list.

Plane tickets and or long car drives.

See if you can audition in someones home. Probably not much choice here.

Order from ID companies and hope you get lucky. To survey the field you will keep UPS and FedEx busy. If the speaker is a monster freight companies like Magnum will be kept busy.
Probably a slipped disc also in your future.

ADG method: - Buy a bunch of speakers, find you don't really like any of them. Sell the lot at a loss and get something else.

After that DIY looks a lot easier to me to get the sound you crave. You will learn a lot on the way and develop skills.

Any other suggestions?

I'd say this post pretty much sums it up, with the exception of the DIY conclusion, although it would be difficult to argue that you wouldn't learn a lot.

The custom build option was also mentioned earlier. Give Nathan or Dennis (or choose the designer of your choice) $10K-20K and ask them to come up with something special. I thought about that as I read the post, there's a temptation to it, and I concluded I would be very unlikely to execute. Dropping $17K on the Salon2s was risky enough, but if I ended up being unhappy there was a $14K resale value I could have probably harvested. My guess would be a 75% loss on something custom if you ended up unhappy, unless you got lucky and found just the right buyer.

 

[herbu]

This is the question Herbu posed.

How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

He did not ask which ones are any good, but I think he wants to know how he can make an intelligent purchase.

This thread has gone off track because their are no good answers to his question.

Ya'll have given me a wealth of information here, and I really appreciate it! I have learned a number of things, (see post #161). I apologize for being slow to respond lately. I've been kinda busy for a couple days, and you guys have been great continuing to post new ideas and perspectives. This is where I'm sitting now.

1) There are several speaker brands that not only measure well, but are generally agreed within the audiophile community to be very good.

2) There are several speaker brands that measure well, but seem to have a much smaller community of fans. With ID, I suspect this is at least partly due to limited exposure.

3) It is a very good idea to listen to a speaker before you buy it, and this may be even more prudent when the speaker falls into category #2 above.

4) One can look at a line of speakers, see what "improvement" each step up the line provides, and how much it costs. This is a reasonable way to determine where your own acceptable level of Performance vs. Price lies.

Personally, this is where I am. I bought 4x Aperion Verus Grand Towers and 1 Center, unheard, based largely on this:

Tom Andry:

The Aperion Audio Verus Grand Loudspeaker System has redefined, for me, value in high end, which is why they earned the Audioholics coveted 2010 Product of the Year Award. These are the speakers to beat and will likely send many of their competitors back to the drawing boards, or in their cases, their engineering sound labs. Highly Recommended!

I like them, but have a little cash to play with, so I'm looking and thinking.

A) ADTG has had A LOT of top speakers in his home, for a period of time. I give that more weight than a single listening session. He's currently sold on the RBH T2s. He has so much experience, and is so passionate about the T2s, he makes me want them. But his preferences may not match mine, RBH is in the category #2 above, and I can't help but wonder what speaker will be his passion a year from now.

B) I'm learning that crossover design may be the most important element of a speaker. I read where already top-tier speakers are improved by redesigning the crossovers. Dennis Murphy seems to be a good guy, and at the very least, among the top crossover designers in the world. So I'm drawn to his designs. The footprint of the Philharmonic 3 doesn't really suit me. The SongTower looks really good, especially since I already have 2 good subs. The Salk HT2-TL may be my top contender right now, and I'm wondering how it compares to the Phil Slim Tower. I've pretty much decided that some extra thousands of dollars for an additional half ocatave of bass response is not worth it for me.

C) I'm not willing or able to hear all the good speaker choices before I buy, so the biggest thing this thread has taught me is to change my paradigm. For an audiophile, or even someone with audiophile tendencies, no amount of research or auditioning is likely to reveal the one speaker that will keep you satisfied forever, as that speaker probably doesn't exist. Narrow your choices to top candidates that meet your criteria, pick one and buy it. Whenever, and for whatever reason, the itch returns... repeat.

 

[ski2xblack]

C) I'm not willing or able to hear all the good speaker choices before I buy, so the biggest thing this thread has taught me is to change my paradigm. For an audiophile, or even someone with audiophile tendencies, no amount of research or auditioning is likely to reveal the one speaker that will keep you satisfied forever, as that speaker probably doesn't exist. Narrow your choices to top candidates that meet your criteria, pick one and buy it. Whenever, and for whatever reason, the itch returns... repeat.

There is a big difference between having a love of music and being caught up in the marketing/consumerist vortex, and I'm glad you are picking up on this distinction. Upgraditis depends on psychological factors, not the nuts and bolts of reproducing music. As you learn about speakers, I strongly suggest you pick up a copy of Toole's book on room acoustics. The room/speaker interaction is invariably the biggest system bottleneck, and your room will help determine the best speakers to choose from.

 

[walter duque]

That's weird, for me it's the inverse. The worse something sounds, the quieter I listen. The better a system sounds, the more that volume knob keeps creeping up!

There are some tracks that I like to turn it up. I turn it up only for a few minutes, not hours. I do live in an apartment complex. Most music I listen to on lower levels 75db or less.
My speakers are very capable of doing both.

 

[GranteedEV]

Any other suggestions?

Well, i don't know which direction it would lead Herbu... Maybe towards option A or C or DIY...but...

Herbu, read up on sound perception a bit. Maybe start with Dr. Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction​ ... It may just give you some inspiration on what to do. Great book. Although the build in my sig someone ignores some of that book's conclusions, it's still strongly inspired by that book as well as another which agrees-yet-disagrees.

 

[ski2xblack]

Herbu, read up on sound perception a bit. Maybe start with Dr. Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction​ ... It may just give you some inspiration on what to do. Great book. Although the build in my sig someone ignores some of that book's conclusions, it's still strongly inspired by that book as well as another which agrees-yet-disagrees.

It's like no one even...! That's two suggestions for Toole's book now.

System setup starts with the room. While Toole's book is not the end-all (my practice deviates here and there too), it does give the reader a handle on acoustics/psychoacoustics, which is at the heart of audio reproduction. You may not follow it's methods to the letter, but the knowledge it provides will help you make informed choices, and probably save you a lot of money in this hobby.

 

[GranteedEV]

System setup starts with the room. .

Exactly. While there are a lot of great speakers out there, there is no one-size-fits-all solution in my opinion.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG has had A LOT of top speakers in his home, for a period of time. I give that more weight than a single listening session. He's currently sold on the RBH T2s. He has so much experience, and is so passionate about the T2s, he makes me want them. But his preferences may not match mine, RBH is in the category #2 above, and I can't help but wonder what speaker will be his passion a year from now.

Your Aperion speakers + subs may be all you really need also. No point of spending money if your system already sounds great, unless your goal is more than just good sound.

You could be happy with many speakers. I didn't sell the Salon 2, KEF, B&W, Phil3 because I was unhappy with their sound! They all sound great! I think the Linkwitz Orion also sound great.

 

[herbu]

I've written a lot of processes in my day... enough to realize I don't know enough to define a good one for selecting speakers. But I also know one good way to define a process is simply to begin, then refine the first draft with input from experts. So here's a first draft.

1. Define your budget.

2. Read as many reviews as you can find for speakers within your budget from reputable audiophile publications/sites.

3. Make a list of what look like good 4 or 5 candidates.

4. Compare your candidates for cost, power rqmnts, freq response, appearance and drivers.

5. Eliminate any whose appearance alone disqualifies them.

6. Compare each candidate to speakers of the same brand both higher and lower in cost. See what each step up or down gains or loses in cost and performance.
Something like this:

			Cost	Freq	Tweeter	Mid	Woofer
SongTower QWT		$1,999	42 - 20kHz	Hiquphon OW2	2x Seas ER15RLY	O
SongTower Supercharged	$3,499	34 - 20kHz	RAAL Ribbon	2x Seas Excel W15	O
Veracity HT1-TL		$3,499	34 - 60kHz	RAAL Ribbon	1x Seas Exce W18E001	O
Veracity HT2-TL		$4,499	34 - 60kHz	RAAL Ribbon	2x Seas Exce W18E001	O
Soundscape 8		$7,999	25 - 60kHz	RAAL Ribbon	1x Accuton	2x custom 8" long-throw

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</tbody>

7. Evaluate price vs performance, adjust your candidates up or down as necessary.

8. Go to the reputable audio forums, search and read threads about your candidates. Learn what you can about the companies and the designers. Determine which of your candidates have wide vs narrow support. Look for customer support experiences and return policies.

9. Seek out and listen to as many of your candidates as possible, especially if they seem to have a narrow exposure or following.

10. If you were able to listen to some of your candidates, buy the one that sounds best to you.

11. If you were not able to listen to your candidates, pick one based on Price vs Performance, Designer and Company Reputation.

12. Enjoy

13. Repeat as desired.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADG method: - Buy a bunch of speakers, find you don't really like any of them.

I've said repeatedly that I really liked ALL OF THE SPEAKERS I SOLD.

Again, I did NOT sell my speakers because I did not like the sound quality.

The Salon2 would make anybody happy. The KEF Reference would make anybody happy. The B&W 802D2 would make anybody happy. The Linkwitz Orion would make anybody happy. The Philharmonic 3 would make anybody happy. They all sound great to me.

I am not saying that the RBH unequivocally sounds better than all these great sounding speakers.

All I am saying is that the RBH fits MY NEEDS best.

I had a clear explicit goal of what I needed for my system. And the RBH fit me the best.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Give a man a fish he eats for a day.

Teach a man to fish.

He's good for life.