How do you all know which speakers produce a "colored" sound and which ones do not?

[3db]

All speakers color the sound, some just more so than others. Measurements are a fantastic reference in order to rule out a problematic design (badly colored from the start). After that listening is key, whether you have a reference or not (having one is better than not IMO). The best listening approach is to do so in your own room. If you like what you hear and think it matches your reference, then your goal has been achieved.

Speaker design is all about trade-offs, and each individual needs to determine which trade-offs they can live with.

Speakers are like shoes in many respects. You end up buying a pair that best fits one's feet; speaker trade-offs best fits one's ears

The one common thing I think that people should avoid at all cost is a poorly designed cabinet that is prone to vibration or sets up standing waves behind the driver.

 

[Steve81]

Measurements are a fantastic reference in order to rule out a problematic design (badly colored from the start). After that listening is key, whether you have a reference or not (having one is better than not IMO).

To toss in my two cents, as I've mentioned before, it's my general opinion that a lack of concrete standards regarding how music is reproduced, both in the studio and in the home, is a major downfall of the industry today.

In the movie world, you've got a standards body like THX. It isn't necessarily perfect, but if you've got a full THX setup in an appropriate room, you can at least claim that you are getting "reference quality" sound for movies that were mixed to the standard. In the music world, nothing like that really exists. The best thing we've got is testing done by Floyd Toole and others which indicates what people tend to prefer. When you get down to it, that's downright sad, at least IMHO.

 

[Nuance AH]

To toss in my two cents, as I've mentioned before, it's my general opinion that a lack of concrete standards regarding how music is reproduced, both in the studio and in the home, is a major downfall of the industry today.

In the movie world, you've got a standards body like THX. It isn't necessarily perfect, but if you've got a full THX setup in an appropriate room, you can at least claim that you are getting "reference quality" sound for movies that were mixed to the standard. In the music world, nothing like that really exists. The best thing we've got is testing done by Floyd Toole and others which indicates what people tend to prefer. When you get down to it, that's downright sad, at least IMHO.

Well said sir, well said. I couldn't agree more.

 

[MinusTheBear]

This is an incorrect statement.

Floyd Toole and others have shown that a speaker which measures flat in an anechoic chamber will probably sound very nice in a real room. This is not the same as measuring flat in that real room.

A flat anechoic speaker will tend to have a higher bass level and rolled off treble when placed in a real room. This is what sounds correct, and what people like.

I have always found in my experience that companies that stress a flat anechoic response (atleast on-axis) tend to sound tipped up in the response in the upper midrange/treble. At least from my experience with various Axiom, Infinity and Digm's in real rooms. They all have a clear overall sound to them but also have an "edge" to that overall sound.

 

[Irvrobinson]

All speakers color the sound, some just more so than others.

I think this is true, and it's a matter of degree. Many speakers, however, are very audibly colored and intentionally built that way. Many (most?) recordings don't sound especially good on a speaker with very low levels of coloration. Sound reinforcement techniques have also given people unrealistic expectations about what live music sounds like in a large venue. Even real-life is magnified in movie foley. In movies car engines all sound like 1960s Corvettes, crashes thud louder than in reality, punches sound like Hercules threw them.

Many people think speakers sound "better" with a mid-bass bump that reaches to subwoofer territory, and a bump in the highs. Just like a built-in loudness contour that doesn't go away. These speakers sound more exciting in a demo. The only way to pick them out is with recordings that are very accurate and you know what they sound like on a relatively uncolored system. Other than measuring I know of no other way.

 

[ousooner2]

Fletcher-Munson

 

[addictaudio]

Ok, here is a question. Many claim that Klipsch speakers produce a colored bright sound, most likely due to the use of a horn, I imagine? So for instance, what makes the RF7 2's colored so to speak? Is this due to them not having a very flat frequency response measurement? I would have to agree that all speakers produce colored sound one way or another at some point in their frequency response.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok, here is a question. Many claim that Klipsch speakers produce a colored bright sound, most likely due to the use of a horn, I imagine? So for instance, what makes the RF7 2's colored so to speak? Is this due to them not having a very flat frequency response measurement? I would have to agree that all speakers produce colored sound one way or another at some point in their frequency response.

The RF-83's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +3.04/–4.40 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. At 8kHz it's down -2dB, @ 10kHz, it's down -1.5dB, 12kHz it's down -1.5dB, @ 14kHz it's up +1dB, @ 15kHz it's down -1dB, @ 17kHz it's down -2dB, @ 20kHz it's down -1dB.

So I don't see where it's all that bright -- if this is how all the Klipsch measure.

 

[addictaudio]

Acu, I do not even think that they make that model anymore, but I understand that you used it as a basis. The RF7 2's are built in the USA actuall and are the top of their Reference line along with the RC64 center channel as well.

 

[Nuance AH]

I don't think all "horn" speakers are bright. It has a lot to do with distortion, design methods and components used (such as drivers and the quality of the crossover). Frequency response is only part of the equation. I'm sure there are plenty of horn designs that aren't "bright," just as there are some that are. We cannot tell by only looking at frequency response, though.

 

[j_garcia]

I don't think all "horn" speakers are bright. It has a lot to do with distortion, design methods and components used (such as drivers and the quality of the crossover). Frequency response is only part of the equation. I'm sure there are plenty of horn designs that aren't "bright," just as there are some that are. We cannot tell by only looking at frequency response, though.

Agreed. I thought most ribbons were bright also because the vast majority of them I've heard were. Then I heard the GR N2X with the BG ribbon. Smooth as silk.

 

[addictaudio]

OK guys (and gals possibly), I found measurements for the Klipsch RF7 2's. Please click on the link below and discuss. Is this accurate, and is this speaker considered colored or not?

Klipsch RF7 II Measurements

 

[Steve81]

Is this accurate, and is this speaker considered colored or not?

Klipsch RF7 II Measurements

It's certainly not perfect. Problems on the spectral decay at 12 and 18kHz are interesting. Much worse than the measurement Stereophile published of the older, much less costly RB-15.

 

[addictaudio]

It's certainly not perfect. Problems on the spectral decay at 12 and 18kHz are interesting. Much worse than the measurement Stereophile published of the older, much less costly RB-15.

It appears like a German magazine tested and published those measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It appears like a German magazine tested and published those measurements.

Well, bottom line is, Klipsch do not measure as well as Revel/ Infinity/ JBL or RBH/ EMP or KEF, or TAD, NHT, etc.

But Klipsch do not measure as poorly as Wilson, Zu, Vienna, & Bose either.

I guess Klipsch is in the middle, same as Def Tech IMO.

 

[j_garcia]

Oh yeah, and just to put it simply: ALL speakers color the sound to some extent. There is NO perfect speaker.

 

[Swerd]

Based on those frequency response curves alone, I'd say these speakers have a pronounced bright sound.

The red trace (on axis) and the blue trace (30° horizontally off-axis) show a broad dip in response from 200 Hz to about 2,000 Hz (compared to the bass below 200 Hz), and then a generally rising response from 2,000 to about 10,000 Hz. This is likely to be heard as a rather bright sounding speaker.

I'm not sure where the crossover frequency is, but guessing from the traces, it might be somewhere around 1,500 Hz. That suggests the tweeter is voiced too hot.

There are 2 bumps in response at about 400 Hz and 2,000 Hz that I think will easily be audible. They might also contribute to the overall bright or even harsh sound. If you look at the impedance vs. frequency response (black trace below), they correspond to irregular bumps at the same frequencies. One of the posts in your link (from Robert Cook) said:

I'm thinking that these resonances may be contributing causes to the honkiness and listening fatigue that many people have experienced with modern Klipsch home speakers. That resonance at 400 Hz happens to correspond precisely to the outer circumference of the horn, which must not be adequately braced and damped, allowing the horn to literally ring like a bell. And the 1200 Hz crossover frequency for the high-frequency driver means that its colorations, whether detectable in these measurements or not, will be present throughout the midrange.

I think he may be right about that.

There are also some irregular peaks at around 18,000 and 20,000 Hz, but I think they will be much less audible than those midrange bumps.

The impedance vs. frequency curve also shows undesirable features.

 

[Nuance AH]

Oh yeah, and just to put it simply: ALL speakers color the sound to some extent. There is NO perfect speaker.

There's no universal perfect speaker, no. But there can be a perfect speaker for each individual based on their needs, room setup, system synergy, etc. I know I know, grasping at straws.

 

[Steve81]

One of the posts in your link (from Robert Cook) said:
I think he may be right about that.

Thinking about it, I wonder if that issue has the same impact on the "lesser" speakers of the Reference line. The RF-7II is unique relative to its siblings in that its horn is not integral to the front baffle. Could explain the discrepancies between Stereophiles RB-15 measurements and what I'm seeing here.

 

[Swerd]

Thinking about it, I wonder if that issue has the same impact on the "lesser" speakers of the Reference line. The RF-7II is unique relative to its siblings in that its horn is not integral to the front baffle. Could explain the discrepancies between Stereophiles RB-15 measurements and what I'm seeing here.

What you say makes sense, but I really don't know enough about the recent Klipsch speakers to comment further.

Some time back, I once listened to some Klipsch tower in a store, and I couldn't get past the very bright sound that sometimes sounded a little like a megaphone. I didn't listen long.