How do I get the Sub Pre-out to work with an amp/sub

J

joshus77

Enthusiast
I am having some issues with a set-up. I have an Ashly 800PE amp bridge to 2ohm on a Crewin Vega VMX 15" and playing off of a Denon 4311c reciever. I know the sub is bridge correctly to the dual VC, however I get no signal from my sub output from my receiver. The icon indicates it is in-fact on but I get no sound. I hooked up the sub to the L front channel to test the sub/amp and sounds great. I would prefer it to function on the sub channel rather than possibly missing bass hits due to a priority on another channel. Is there something I am missing to convert the signal or any other thoughts. I am also using a 1/4" to RCA f to hook into the Denon, not sure if that causes an issue.

Any thoughts?
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Go into the AVR menu´s speaker-sub menu and make sure the sub option is set to ´yes´ and/or the mains set to ´small´.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Well first things first, if you're bridging your amp it takes the impedance each channel sees and cuts it in half, which again unless I'm missing something, means that your amp is seeing 1 ohm, which it is not rated for. This means something has to give at some point and you risk destroying your amp, sub or both. If I've made a mistake or misinterpreted something correct me, but from what I'm seeing I think this may be a bad situation.

I'm not sure what exactly the issue is between the amp and the receiver, as long as you have the RCA plugged into the subwoofer preout on the 4311 and plugged into the appropriate channel on the amp, everything should be good.
 
J

joshus77

Enthusiast
I definitely do not want to wreck my setup. If I am at 1 ohm and not 2 then I have missed the mark on my intention. How would you recommend I setup up the equipment to the 2 ohm setting I am trying to achieve?

I will admit I am new to the home theater amp. I have setup car audio systems in the past with bridged amps in the same fashion and never had issues.
 
J

joshus77

Enthusiast
I read the post again - thinking through it and I see your point of the 1 ohm. I guess I need to rewire the sub and direct wire the 2 VCs. Rather than the jump wire, etc.

Let me know if I still have it wrong.

Thank you for the advise!!
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
You may never have an issue at all as you've experienced, but not going with the factory recommended settings is always a risk not worth taking.

So are you saying that you are going to bi-wire the sub to the amp? I wish someone else would weigh in on this, but from my understanding of things if you are talking about bi-wiring the amp to the sub than that will work, but won't provide any additional wattage or improvement in sound. Hooking up the sub to a single channel of the amp (obviously which ever channel you have the RCA plugged into) is what you need to do. If you think you aren't getting enough headroom or power, than you need to get a new amp. Hope that helps and good luck :)

Now if you had gotten the 4 ohm version of your sub I think you'd probably be good with the bridged mode since it would be seeing a 2 ohm load. However bridging has its own set of issues, from what I've read. So I'm thinking that if you aren't getting enough power from a single channel you may need to get a new amp.
 
J

joshus77

Enthusiast
Yeah, I feel I will have a huge power loss as well. The other option would be for me to skip the sub out and just wire the L&R run the amp in stereo mode and keep the bridge. I will trouble shoot it.

The sub pounds so hard right now I will have to cry if it becomes a shallow version of what I know it can do. lol
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Well if I'm reading this right you have the Ashley 800PE and at best bridged would be putting you around 1600 watts, if you just keep doubling. The ratings don't actually give you an estimate for what you were doing. The website I'm looking at has the amp listed at $1289. You can do much better.

Behringer EP4000 Stereo Power Amplifier at AmericanMusical.com

This or a crown for much less than what I see the Ashley listed for, but then again I don't know what you paid for the Ashley.
 
J

joshus77

Enthusiast
The crewin VMX 15" is rated to 1200w and that was the reason for the choice on the 800PE. I got it on ebay for $200 (was a steal!). Amp you are recommending is beautiful, but I am married to my 800 for the time being.

In the current setting as I mentioned above I put the amp to 50% power and the sub was over powering the the speakers and my wife was screaming at me. I can afford the power loss ~ never thought I would ever say that.:cool:
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Well it's good to hear that everything got worked out and that your current equipment is fitting the bill. Well......I guess you could always get the wife a pair of earplugs ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I read the post again - thinking through it and I see your point of the 1 ohm. I guess I need to rewire the sub and direct wire the 2 VCs. Rather than the jump wire, etc.

Let me know if I still have it wrong.

Thank you for the advise!!
Wire the two voice coils in series and not parallel. That means you connect the -ve of one coil to the +ve of the other and connect across the remaining +ve and -ve.
 
J

joshus77

Enthusiast
Hey new thought... If the output from the amp to the sub is set at 2 ohms, then the wiring splits between the VCs cuts it to 1 ohm wouldn't the load remain the same on the output from the amp??

My example and I may be lacking coffee this morning - but if I have the amp output connections wired as bridged, the amp should output the same amount based on the settings, volume, limiter, etc. Even if I split the signal I am just cutting my watts in half after output. So if my amp is rated at 1600w @ 2ohm, I should just be limiting myself to 800w per VC (actually shared)? I don't think it would create a 3200w draw. So my 1ohm wiring would only cause an issue on the sub since I am rated to 1200w and I will most likely blow the cone or fry the coil. My amp should be safe on this set-up.

I have run this in cars at 2ohm into a sub box to 2 subs which would have the same effect in my current setup.

...I am confusing myself, no idea which way is up anymore.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hey new thought... If the output from the amp to the sub is set at 2 ohms, then the wiring splits between the VCs cuts it to 1 ohm wouldn't the load remain the same on the output from the amp??

My example and I may be lacking coffee this morning - but if I have the amp output connections wired as bridged, the amp should output the same amount based on the settings, volume, limiter, etc. Even if I split the signal I am just cutting my watts in half after output. So if my amp is rated at 1600w @ 2ohm, I should just be limiting myself to 800w per VC (actually shared)? I don't think it would create a 3200w draw. So my 1ohm wiring would only cause an issue on the sub since I am rated to 1200w and I will most likely blow the cone or fry the coil. My amp should be safe on this set-up.

I have run this in cars at 2ohm into a sub box to 2 subs which would have the same effect in my current setup.

...I am confusing myself, no idea which way is up anymore.
You are miles off base!

Here are you amp specs: -

8 ohms: 200 watts x 2 chan.
4 ohms: 400 watts x 2 chan.
Bridged, 8 ohms: 800 watts x 1 chan.

So each amp is rated at 400 watts per channel 8 ohms.

Now when you bridge an amp you must double the impedance.

So in bridge mode the map must see 8 ohms, and not less.

Now if you put two 2 ohm coils in parallel you get one ohm, and each half of you amp will see 0.5 of an ohm. Heck, a lot of speaker runs have more resistance than that. It is a virtual short circuit, and certain to send your amp into protection and if you keep doing it destroying it.

The only way you can use that amp is to unbridge it. Put the two sub voice coils in series to get four ohms, ans just use one channel of the Ashley amp, which will give you 400 watts. You can not make that amp deliver 800 watts into that sub. The good news is that the difference between 400 watts and 800 watts is only 3 db. To really improve on 400 watts you need 4000 watts because of the relationship between sound pressure level and power is not linear but logarithmic.

You do need to use the LFE output as if you do not you will miss the flags to the LFE channel, during explosions and other effects.

Now you need to get out a physics book and not let random oscillations build to destructive crescendos in your brain.

So lets give you a simple physics, lesson, although it gets more complicated than this.

First ohms law. Voltage = Current X Resistance. So Current = Voltage divided by resistance.

Now Power = Voltage X Current. So Voltage = Power divided by resistance.

Now your amp delivers 200 watts into 8 ohms. So your amp can generate a maximum voltage at output of 25 volts.

So the current delivered into an 8 ohm load is 3.1 amps.

Now if we give your amp a four ohm load, the voltage is still 24 volts, but the power is 400 watts now, so the current is 6.2 amps. From the spec. you have to assume this is the maximum current your amp can safely provide, otherwise they would give a 2 ohm rating.

So if you connected your amp to a 2 ohm load it would try to deliver 12.4 amps and 800 watts which it can't.

So we know know the maximum current draw from your amp's power transistors is 6.2 amps. Remember that number.

Now lets bridge the amp. When you bridge an amp one amp channel provides the voltage for the positive deflection of the output wave and the other the negative side of the deflection.

Now you have 50 volts maximum across the speaker terminal of your bridged amp.

So divide 8 ohms into 50 volts and we get your amps max current draw of 6.2 amps. Now if you gave it an 4 ohm load it would try to deliver 12.4 amps, if you gave it a 2 ohm load, 24.8 amps, it you gave it a 1 ohm load, which it is with your subs voice coils in parallel, then a whopping 49.6 amps. This is bound to trigger protection and or destroy your amp.

If your amp could manage to deliver that current it would be providing 2,500 watts!

So you see you have created and absurd situation.

Now it gets more complicated, because a speaker never has a uniform impedance with frequency. The rating is average, in parts of the curve it will be higher than rated and at parts lower. Worse speakers are inductive loads, and voltage and current are not in phase.

When the phase angles are negative, then in that region you have to multiply the current calculations above by the cosine of the phase angle, to find the actual peak current draws. In technical terms there is a power gap between the apparent power and true power delivered. When voltage and current have negative phase angles the apparent power is higher than the true power. The bad news is that the amp has to have enough current reserve to supply the current for the apparent power demand.

By the way bridging in general is not to be highly recommended and a good way to destroy amps. It is much better to have an amp that provides enough power without bridging.

Your best solution is to buy a two channel amp that can provide the power you need into two ohms and connect one channel to each voice coil. The other is a mono block, that will provide the power you need into four ohms, with the voice coils in series or one ohm with the voice coils in parallel.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
^^What I was trying to convey, only much more articulate and and coming from a source with a lot more knowledge :D
 
J

joshus77

Enthusiast
I feel as if I just got owned. Lol, you definitely know your stuff. Thank you for the clarification and help. I will rewire it as you and Fuzz stated in the earlier posts and admit you know a lot more than I do.

I love to read threads and I guess my knowledge on all of this was second hand and probably not from reliable sources such as yourself. I do appreciate all of the help and hope you won't mind if I hit you with a couple of dumb questions in the future during my learning curve.

Thank you again!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I feel as if I just got owned. Lol, you definitely know your stuff. Thank you for the clarification and help. I will rewire it as you and Fuzz stated in the earlier posts and admit you know a lot more than I do.

I love to read threads and I guess my knowledge on all of this was second hand and probably not from reliable sources such as yourself. I do appreciate all of the help and hope you won't mind if I hit you with a couple of dumb questions in the future during my learning curve.

Thank you again!
You are welcome.
 
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