How and which to choose: Phil 3 or Ascend RAAL Towers?

Y

yugnat

Enthusiast
Ah, built-in powered subwoofer. I like. I wonder if AJ could make it externally powered built-in subwoofer so you could use your own external amp?
If you already have extra sub amp (also could buy for $300 or less), that could save you even more money.
Unfortunately I don't have any extra amplification, but I still wouldn't count these out. I like the controlled directivity approach too. If you care about brand/model of drivers though I'm not sure which are used compared to the premium ones in the Phils (especially the Phil 3), plus its tough to compete with Dennis' crossover work, and the Phil's TL implementation and overall design are cool unto themselves. And buying without much (if any) listening demo's I can find more Phil customers to read about and talk to than VSFT-2 customers. Still AJ is well respected and appears to offer great customer service so I need to keep this one on my list.
 
Y

yugnat

Enthusiast
A couple questions if you can't actually hear your top candidates to decide.
1) Have you ever seen anybody, anywhere, say "I like XXX better than the Phil3s for the same money"?
2) Considering #1 above, how long before angst and wonder if you should have gone w/ the Phil3s?

I recently had the same analysis paralysis as you. Budget was not a primary concern, and I could have gone significantly higher than the Phil3s. Not being able to audition my top choices, I went w/ the Phil3s. Here's why, and what I think I learned about speaker shopping.

> All highly rated and widely recommended speakers in this price range, (and up), are very good.
> As the price increases, speaker improvement is mostly in bass capability, cabinet artistry, and volume potential.
> Differences in these top tier speakers really come down to personal preference. (Do you prefer a cornet or a trumpet, a Martin or Taylor guitar, a Ferrari or a Lamborgini?) Until you experience, and become quite familiar with the choices, you cannot say which you prefer.

The second point above does provide some points about which you can make a choice. I have 2 good subwoofers, so the kind of bass that shakes the room during a movie explosion is covered. BUT I came to realize during my research that speaker design is far more complex than I realized. Accurate bass in an explosion is not such a big deal, but I would like it in music. I chose 2 good subs, followed all the advice on setting them up physically and with crossovers. But I have no doubt a good speaker designer will do a better job within his speaker on both hardware selection and crossover design. Back to research, and I have seen nobody, anywhere, give anything but high praise for Dennis Murphy.

Cabinet artistry is not a priority for me. We're just plain country folk. Our furniture is comfortable. And any speaker is subject to cat scratches.
I occasionally play music loud enough that a conversation is not easy, but not loud enough to make my ears bleed.
I will set my front L/R to "Small" and use the subwoofers for TV/Movies, but would like to set them to "Large" for music, and hear music that is as accurate as is reasonably possible.
I have never seen any claim, by anybody, anywhere, that XXX speaker has a design better than one by Dennis Murphy. Plus I found him to be a genuinely nice guy, honest and most helpful.
I knew if I got something less than the Phil3, like the Slims, I would always wonder how much better the Phil3 would sound.

For all these reasons, I went with the Phil3. I'm still a few weeks away from receiving them, so cannot tell you, "WOW!!!! What an amazing speaker!!!". But this was my thought process.
Herbu - I couldn't of said it any better myself. Even with Dennis telling me his new bookshelves sound great at $1,200 I still look longingly at the Phil 3's and wonder just like you described. The Phil 3's are at the max of my budget and I'll actually have to keep putting funds aside for a little while to get to their cost (I mainly sell and trade other gear I own to make big purchases like this). So that means I'm also interested in all these other ways to 'skin the cat' as it was put earlier.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
A couple questions if you can't actually hear your top candidates to decide.
1) Have you ever seen anybody, anywhere, say "I like XXX better than the Phil3s for the same money"?
I know that on compressed pop / rock, some have preferred the more laid-back / recessed midrange sound of the KEF R series. But I believe even they do think that the Phils are more honest to the recording - just the honesty is unfortunate.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
A couple questions if you can't actually hear your top candidates to decide.
1) Have you ever seen anybody, anywhere, say "I like XXX better than the Phil3s for the same money"?
2) Considering #1 above, how long before angst and wonder if you should have gone w/ the Phil3s?

I recently had the same analysis paralysis as you. Budget was not a primary concern, and I could have gone significantly higher than the Phil3s. Not being able to audition my top choices, I went w/ the Phil3s. Here's why, and what I think I learned about speaker shopping.
I'm hardly a disinterested party, but that has to be one of the most articulate posts I've read. Of course, you've set the bar awfully high expectation-wise. I sure hope the 3's deliver what you're looking for. BTW--they're just about done. I've ordered all the driver and Xover parts, and hope to have the assembled Xovers to Jim by the middle of next week. So they could ship in a little over a week.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Unfortunately I don't have any extra amplification, but I still wouldn't count these out. I like the controlled directivity approach too. If you care about brand/model of drivers though I'm not sure which are used compared to the premium ones in the Phils (especially the Phil 3), plus its tough to compete with Dennis' crossover work, and the Phil's TL implementation and overall design are cool unto themselves. And buying without much (if any) listening demo's I can find more Phil customers to read about and talk to than VSFT-2 customers. Still AJ is well respected and appears to offer great customer service so I need to keep this one on my list.
An external subwoofer amp costs like $300 (HSU sub amp, Crown XLS1000). One amp could power both towers' subwoofers.

One other recommendation I have is the RBH SX-8300. MSRP is $5,000, but you might be able to get them for around $3,500. Each tower has the equivalent of one RBH SX-1010 passive subwoofer, so they do require an external amp. If you have an RBH dealer around, you might want to audition. Always good to audition as many speakers as possible.

I always believe that the driver itself doesn't make the speaker. It is the whole speaker that matters in the end.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
that has to be one of the most articulate posts I've read
My mother would be so proud! Kinda like when the county gave us an actual street address instead of a Rural Route number. Would you mind giving her a call? :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
As usual, the only sure way to go is to audition the speakers for yourself because everyone has his opinion and favorite speaker. ;)
 
Saturn94

Saturn94

Enthusiast
As usual, the only sure way to go is to audition the speakers for yourself because everyone has his opinion and favorite speaker. ;)
+1000!

There's some great recommendations here, but speaker preference is such a personal thing.
 
Saturn94

Saturn94

Enthusiast
I've heard the Salk ST's with the RAAL, which is what's got me going with this style speaker in the first place. I just really liked Dennis' emphasis on value. That and since my listening area is upstairs in my personnal area I don't have space constraints and don't need wife approved high end finishes. I currently live in the Houston (northside) area but I'm not sure if there are any Phil owners here.
So what did you think of the Salk STs?

If you liked them you can be sure you will like the Philharmonics. :)
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
OP,
You did see the specs of the Ascends and Phil3s, right?

Phil3: +/- 2dB 25-20kHz
Sierra: +/- 3dB 34-27kHz
 
Y

yugnat

Enthusiast
OP,
You did see the specs of the Ascends and Phil3s, right?

Phil3: +/- 2dB 25-20kHz
Sierra: +/- 3dB 34-27kHz
Yes - and no doubt the specs on the Phil 3's are awesome, especially for music listening without a subwoofer. But I know if I went with the Ascends that I'd eventually end up adding a sub (or a pair), which at that point makes the comparison more competitive on the bass end. I'm still going through all my options, its a slow process.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes - and no doubt the specs on the Phil 3's are awesome, especially for music listening without a subwoofer. But I know if I went with the Ascends that I'd eventually end up adding a sub (or a pair), which at that point makes the comparison more competitive on the bass end. I'm still going through all my options, its a slow process.
I think you still need a subwoofer with the Phil3. I mean the bass output should be great, but you just can't adjust the bass like you would a subwoofer.

One reason I like towers with built-in passive subwoofers. You can easily adjust the bass level (without messing with the midrange and treble) to suit your preference.

I wonder if the Phil3 can be configured so that when you remove the jumpers, the bass cabinet is 100% separate from the treble/midrange cabinet and you can then actively bi-amp the bass cabinet like you would a passive subwoofer?
 
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D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
The Phil 3 woofer is independently wired--the circuitry is completely separate from the mid-tweet--no common ground, no common positive in. To the best of my knowledge, no one as tried to run the woofer actively, but if you're willing to incur the added cost and complexity, it would allow you to tune the bass. However---the woofer runs up to 600 Hz. So you would also be shelving down (or up) a lot of the midrange. I'm not sure that would work very well.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
I've got a pair of Philharmonic 2's I'd sell. Save you $1500 over the Phil 3's; so you could buy a $1k subwoofer and still be in budget :)
 

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