How and which to choose: Phil 3 or Ascend RAAL Towers?

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I honestly don't expect the Ascend mid to compete.
In terms of clarity, detail, imaging, soundstage, dynamics, ?

The only immediate and more tangible difference I see is in the woofer/bass output.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
You like them full-figured, do you? ;)
in my women ... not so much in my speakers. :D let me add though that I own one of the ugliest speakers known, the KEF LS50's, so it's not like I have room to talk. all is forgiven though once they start playing. :)
 
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D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
I'm putting together a new listening area in a dedicated space in my large office / bonus space above my garage. This will be for music only, I listen mainly to blues (electric), r&b, some jazz, plenty of live albums (my favorite), some current rock stuff (but not much). I have no immediate plans to include a subwoofer(s) but I would consider adding it farther down the road if necessary. Right now I want to nail down which towers to set my sights on. Unfortunately due to the WAF I can't bring in speakers for demo, this will be a 'one and done' type of acquisition. I would like to stay at or below $3K for the pair but I've been particularly drawn to the Phil 3's at $3,500 so would be willing to stretch it. Having said that I can't ignore the Ascend Tower w/ RAAL coming in much lower at $2,800 which would be much easier on the budget. I understand the differences in driver configuration, and that the Phil's dig lower negating the future purchase of a sub, but if I want to buy the better tower for my purposes how do I go about deciding? For the sake of discussion, which would you choose and why? Funny thing, throughout all my reading I've seen a lot of comparisons between Phil's, Ascends, Salks, etc in general but not really anything in depth comparing the Phil 3 and Ascend Tower RAAL.

Disclaimer, I have hard wood floors in the room and some wall/ceiling angles non-conducive to music playback (vaulted due to the walls meeting the roof line) - however room treatments will definitely be addressed so no need to get into those recommendations.

Thanks!
Since it doesn't look like you're going to buy one of those fat-bottomed 3's, do you mind if I engage in a little market research? For companies like mine, the big hangup is always the cabinets. Custom-made towers are going to be expensive if produced domestically, and the final system price is going to get up there even with razor-thin margins if you want to offer quality drivers like the RAAL's and Scans. One alternative is a large bookshelf 3-way with attractive Asian-built cabinets (around 22" high)and premium drivers that can match the bass, mid, and treble performance of, say, the Slims. That kind of speaker could be sold for $1200/pr. Would the need for stands (although not tall ones) be an absolute sticking point for you? I'm just trying to explore every way to get the price of quality sound down to a more manageable level.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
What about a wall mountable cabinet that could be kicked over for a center?

Front stage:$1800
These would be too big for wall mounting, and the driver configuration wouldn't work well horizontally. These puppies would pretty much be restricted to stands.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I browsed through this thread, didn't read every post..

If you are just looking to spend up to $3500 on a pair of speakers with no demo, I would be nervous recommending anything, in this price range some sort of demo should be had IMO.. here is a lot out there..

For me the system has to look good, sound good, fit good, and be priced right... Heres a couple idea of ways I would go...

Ascend sierra 2's with a pair of SVS SB2000's, you can get all 4 in piano black and it would be a really nice system... Price would be around $3000, depending no what you are using for sources, pre, i-amp, ect if it doens't have sub integration you can grab a mini dsp for $100 and be done with it...

That would be my first pick for $3000, I have heard them together and apart and the equipment is ALL THERE, very nice sound, the room I heard the 2.2 {the sierra 2's with the dual sb2000's} was untreated around 450sq ft open to other rooms with hard tiled floors and a good amount a furniture, we played at least 2 hours of music at all different levels and the system had what I would call it all, I really like 2.2 systems with a sealed sub and a 2 way bookshelf or tower when done right they are amazing for rock and pretty much all genres, the only time I like something different is with classical music, for some reason I prefer a 3 way tower capable of digging low for classical...

If you really want to go with towers and no subs, I have heard a few that are note worthy, first the phil 3's and sierra towers are both amazing and towards the top of the list...

Check out
PSB imagine t2's, these shocked me, I love them, they are a very nice speaker...
Wharfedale Opus 2-3's, I know a retailer with these on sale right now for around $2000 they are very capable and do not need a sub for most music... {dual 10" drivers in them}
the song towers already mentioned in this thread
Wharfedale jade 5's can be bought on demo for around $2000

but I can not really think of many speakers that I have heard and thought could stand alone with out a subwoofer.... I think the phil 3's will stand alone better than the ascends, both will sound great in the top and mid ranges...

It a lot to decide $3500 isn't a small amount of money, I would really consider ascend sierra 2's with svs sb2000's....
 
macddmac

macddmac

Audioholic General
Since it doesn't look like you're going to buy one of those fat-bottomed 3's, do you mind if I engage in a little market research? For companies like mine, the big hangup is always the cabinets. Custom-made towers are going to be expensive if produced domestically, and the final system price is going to get up there even with razor-thin margins if you want to offer quality drivers like the RAAL's and Scans. One alternative is a large bookshelf 3-way with attractive Asian-built cabinets (around 22" high)and premium drivers that can match the bass, mid, and treble performance of, say, the Slims. That kind of speaker could be sold for $1200/pr. Would the need for stands (although not tall ones) be an absolute sticking point for you? I'm just trying to explore every way to get the price of quality sound down to a more manageable level.
Selah makes one like that- with the top line drivers..but it's 3300.00
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
Selah makes one like that- with the top line drivers..but it's 3300.00
Rick seems to make some designs that accommodate pre fabed PE cabinets. I think in the 27 to 30" range that a folded TL could be accomplished to achieve good bass response without the need for an uber driver. Jim Holtz does a good job with his Statement monitors.
 
JohnnieB

JohnnieB

Senior Audioholic
I would have to say +1 to Imclouds' recommendation. I own the Sierra towers, and tho I have not heard the Salk, I can say the RAALs are superb. Plus you get the advantage of placing smaller components to fit the room. Win win IMO.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Since it doesn't look like you're going to buy one of those fat-bottomed 3's, do you mind if I engage in a little market research? For companies like mine, the big hangup is always the cabinets. Custom-made towers are going to be expensive if produced domestically, and the final system price is going to get up there even with razor-thin margins if you want to offer quality drivers like the RAAL's and Scans. One alternative is a large bookshelf 3-way with attractive Asian-built cabinets (around 22" high)and premium drivers that can match the bass, mid, and treble performance of, say, the Slims. That kind of speaker could be sold for $1200/pr. Would the need for stands (although not tall ones) be an absolute sticking point for you? I'm just trying to explore every way to get the price of quality sound down to a more manageable level.
My personal opinion:

I like the idea, and driving down the price for a quality product would always be appreciated by me as the end user.

Personally, I would think that offering up some custom stands to allow these large bookshelf speakers to mimic towers would be the way to go. In other words, make an option just like the Ascend 340SEs, where they can come with matching Philharmonic stands that would "convert them into a tower" if needed.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.
 
R

Ricardojoa

Audioholic
I dont know what 3 way bookshelves Dennis is talking about but if he can make it at $1200, thats another great value is offering.
 
Y

yugnat

Enthusiast
Since it doesn't look like you're going to buy one of those fat-bottomed 3's, do you mind if I engage in a little market research? For companies like mine, the big hangup is always the cabinets. Custom-made towers are going to be expensive if produced domestically, and the final system price is going to get up there even with razor-thin margins if you want to offer quality drivers like the RAAL's and Scans. One alternative is a large bookshelf 3-way with attractive Asian-built cabinets (around 22" high)and premium drivers that can match the bass, mid, and treble performance of, say, the Slims. That kind of speaker could be sold for $1200/pr. Would the need for stands (although not tall ones) be an absolute sticking point for you? I'm just trying to explore every way to get the price of quality sound down to a more manageable level.
Hi Dennis, your 3-ways are definitely in the mix (we've been emailing over this past weekend). The need for stands isnt't a deal beaker but their price obviously needs to be accounted for when making comparisons... This may or may not hurt their chances. In continuing my research (including reviewing this thread) I've got to admit that the Slims and the Phil 3's are still on the table. I can't help but feel a desire to include a sub when thinking of your proposed 3-way bookshelves - combined with stands and a sub(s) then you're up there in price again.
 
Y

yugnat

Enthusiast
Thanks for everybody's feedback so far, this thread took off more than I thought it would. I've been mulling this project over for quite some time, I can say that I am drawn more towards the Philharmonic line than the Ascends. That being said I took the earlier advice given and checked out Soundfield, I really like AJ's VSFT-2, no need for separate subwoofers there. At this point I'm suffering a bit of analysis paralysis... Not sure about going full range speaker vs bookshelf + sub (such as Dennis' proposed new bookshelves). Towers such as Phil 3's seem like the easier more streamlined way to go - but also the most expensive, they max my budget and would take me a while longer to have all the funds set aside.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Hi Dennis, your 3-ways are definitely in the mix (we've been emailing over this past weekend). The need for stands isnt't a deal beaker but their price obviously needs to be accounted for when making comparisons... This may or may not hurt their chances. In continuing my research (including reviewing this thread) I've got to admit that the Slims and the Phil 3's are still on the table. I can't help but feel a desire to include a sub when thinking of your proposed 3-way bookshelves - combined with stands and a sub(s) then you're up there in price again.
Right, although you don't need expensive stands, and there are lots of good but not super-expensive subs that would keep the price well below the Phil 3's. It's really hard to provide a full-range speaker with premium drivers and that last few Hz of bass response for under 3k. For what it's worth, I will probably be offering the 3's with a different RAAL tweeter and either the existing Scan woofer or a good but less expensive alternative. That will bring down the cost by $400 to $700. It's still a chunk 'O change, however.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks for everybody's feedback so far, this thread took off more than I thought it would. I've been mulling this project over for quite some time, I can say that I am drawn more towards the Philharmonic line than the Ascends. That being said I took the earlier advice given and checked out Soundfield, I really like AJ's VSFT-2, no need for separate subwoofers there. At this point I'm suffering a bit of analysis paralysis... Not sure about going full range speaker vs bookshelf + sub (such as Dennis' proposed new bookshelves). Towers such as Phil 3's seem like the easier more streamlined way to go - but also the most expensive, they max my budget and would take me a while longer to have all the funds set aside.
Any chance you could audition the Phils somewhere? Have you ever heard a well designed TL before at least. If you want to listen to symphonies and high quality recordings a good TL is hard to beat. A subwoofer is no match for a TL in those situations IMO.
 
Y

yugnat

Enthusiast
Any chance you could audition the Phils somewhere? Have you ever heard a well designed TL before at least. If you want to listen to symphonies and high quality recordings a good TL is hard to beat. A subwoofer is no match for a TL in those situations IMO.
I've heard the Salk ST's with the RAAL, which is what's got me going with this style speaker in the first place. I just really liked Dennis' emphasis on value. That and since my listening area is upstairs in my personnal area I don't have space constraints and don't need wife approved high end finishes. I currently live in the Houston (northside) area but I'm not sure if there are any Phil owners here.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
checked out Soundfield, I really like AJ's VSFT-2, no need for separate subwoofers there.
Ah, built-in powered subwoofer. I like. I wonder if AJ could make it externally powered built-in subwoofer so you could use your own external amp?
If you already have extra sub amp (also could buy for $300 or less), that could save you even more money.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
At this point I'm suffering a bit of analysis paralysis... Phil 3's seem like the easier more streamlined way to go - but also the most expensive, they max my budget and would take me a while longer to have all the funds set aside.
A couple questions if you can't actually hear your top candidates to decide.
1) Have you ever seen anybody, anywhere, say "I like XXX better than the Phil3s for the same money"?
2) Considering #1 above, how long before angst and wonder if you should have gone w/ the Phil3s?

I recently had the same analysis paralysis as you. Budget was not a primary concern, and I could have gone significantly higher than the Phil3s. Not being able to audition my top choices, I went w/ the Phil3s. Here's why, and what I think I learned about speaker shopping.

> All highly rated and widely recommended speakers in this price range, (and up), are very good.
> As the price increases, speaker improvement is mostly in bass capability, cabinet artistry, and volume potential.
> Differences in these top tier speakers really come down to personal preference. (Do you prefer a cornet or a trumpet, a Martin or Taylor guitar, a Ferrari or a Lamborgini?) Until you experience, and become quite familiar with the choices, you cannot say which you prefer.

The second point above does provide some points about which you can make a choice. I have 2 good subwoofers, so the kind of bass that shakes the room during a movie explosion is covered. BUT I came to realize during my research that speaker design is far more complex than I realized. Accurate bass in an explosion is not such a big deal, but I would like it in music. I chose 2 good subs, followed all the advice on setting them up physically and with crossovers. But I have no doubt a good speaker designer will do a better job within his speaker on both hardware selection and crossover design. Back to research, and I have seen nobody, anywhere, give anything but high praise for Dennis Murphy.

Cabinet artistry is not a priority for me. We're just plain country folk. Our furniture is comfortable. And any speaker is subject to cat scratches.
I occasionally play music loud enough that a conversation is not easy, but not loud enough to make my ears bleed.
I will set my front L/R to "Small" and use the subwoofers for TV/Movies, but would like to set them to "Large" for music, and hear music that is as accurate as is reasonably possible.
I have never seen any claim, by anybody, anywhere, that XXX speaker has a design better than one by Dennis Murphy. Plus I found him to be a genuinely nice guy, honest and most helpful.
I knew if I got something less than the Phil3, like the Slims, I would always wonder how much better the Phil3 would sound.

For all these reasons, I went with the Phil3. I'm still a few weeks away from receiving them, so cannot tell you, "WOW!!!! What an amazing speaker!!!". But this was my thought process.
 
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