High current amplifiers and Power conditioner

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Emotiva is offering a power conditioner now. That might be the solution...
I checked it out on their website. They are rated for 15A and can handle up to 250% of rated current without tripping the breaker. It should be fine for the XPA-2 but not for the one I listed as an example of what we may consider a high current amp.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
Would this surge protector/line filter be adequate for my reciever + sub-amp?
Be more concerned whether it even does something useful. Posted earlier by Jim was your answer:
APower conditioner will provide, at best, minimal protection from power surges. If lightning strikes your house, it won't help. There are whole house protection systems for that.
Even a $4 power strip should provide more than sufficient power. Add the ampere numbers for your reciever and sub-amp. Only you have those numbers (amperes or watts). That power strip will safely provide up to 13 amps. You must first sum the ampere consumption for reciever and sub-amp.

Now, add some ten cent protector parts. Same power strip can now sell for $30 with a major profit increase. Both a $4 power strip and $30 protector strip provide same power. Jim defined what the protector strip cannot do and what does better what you need.
 
T

Tidan

Enthusiast
Be more concerned whether it even does something useful. Posted earlier by Jim was your answer:

Even a $4 power strip should provide more than sufficient power. Add the ampere numbers for your reciever and sub-amp. Only you have those numbers (amperes or watts). That power strip will safely provide up to 13 amps. You must first sum the ampere consumption for reciever and sub-amp.

Now, add some ten cent protector parts. Same power strip can now sell for $30 with a major profit increase. Both a $4 power strip and $30 protector strip provide same power. Jim defined what the protector strip cannot do and what does better what you need.
My reciever is supposedly 140 watts per channel and I run 6 channels. The sub amp I think is realistically 450 watts per channel and I run 2 channels. So that would theoretically be a total of 1740 watts. Dynamic power is much higher, but I think the capacitors in both the reciever and amp will cover that?!?
The power strip I believe stated 1800 watts capability.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
Most AC power equipment also has a continuous power rating. That 1800 Watt power strip probably has a 1530 Watt continuous power rating. But in this case continuous means 3 hours or more (like the overhead lights in a store). Audio systems even when playing extremely loud only use their rated power for seconds at a time.So your theoretical 1740 Watt system may be under 300 Watts continuous.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Does anyone have anything else they'd suggest or add?
Home electronics present a different type of load. That intermittent non-linear load won't heat a breaker like a toaster and hair dryer does. Breakers trip thermally, not by a second or two over-current from a non-linear load.
A HT rarely (if at all) plays all channels at full power, simultaneously. That's just not long enough to heat the breaker.

If in the unlikely event you do trip the breaker, or the fuse in the conditioner. It may be due to something else on that circuit.
The solution is to have a dedicated 20-amp circuit installed. If the fuse in the conditioner tripped, then run two of them from the new 20-amp circuit.
 
T

Tidan

Enthusiast
But will this surge protector limit the amount of power to the amp and reciever and/or adversely affect the sound quality?
 
W

westom

Audioholic
But will this surge protector limit the amount of power to the amp and reciever and/or adversely affect the sound quality?
Power ten 100 watt bulbs on that circuit. Using addition, that is a load of 1000 watts on a 15 amp circuit (ie 1800 watts). What happens when those ten bulbs first power on? 8000 watts are demanded. Does that trip the 15 amp (1800 watt) breaker? Of course not. Like all loads, it is non-linear.

Loads are non-linear. Even a simple resistive load like an incandescent bulb is non-linear. Toaster, hair dryer, and electronics are all non-linear loads. Factors considered too complex for layman explain when and why a breaker trips But we simplified it. We call each bulb only 100 watts so that you can do simple addition to calculate the load. So that you need not be concerned when the same 100 watt bulb also draws 800 watts.

What happens when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity? Power (voltage) is seriously restricted. And does nothing to subvert the sound. Electronics contain AVR so that even an AC voltage that low means all internal semiconductors see the exact same and unchanging internal 5, 12, 24, etc DC volts. Either all voltages inside electronics remains locked on perfect (even when bulbs dim to 50% intensity). Or electronics simply power off. Without any hardware damage and without any subverted sound.

Two different types of loads exist: resistive and reactive. That is completely irrelevant for you. Either a receptacle will provide sufficient power. Or a fuse or breaker trips saying you forgot to do some simple arithmetic addition.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Power ten 100 watt bulbs on that circuit. Using addition, that is a load of 1000 watts on a 15 amp circuit (ie 1800 watts). What happens when those ten bulbs first power on? 8000 watts are demanded. Does that trip the 15 amp (1800 watt) breaker? Of course not. Like all loads, it is non-linear.

Loads are non-linear. Even a simple resistive load like an incandescent bulb is non-linear. Toaster, hair dryer, and electronics are all non-linear loads. Factors considered too complex for layman explain when and why a breaker trips But we simplified it. We call each bulb only 100 watts so that you can do simple addition to calculate the load. So that you need not be concerned when the same 100 watt bulb also draws 800 watts.

What happens when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity? Power (voltage) is seriously restricted. And does nothing to subvert the sound. Electronics contain AVR so that even an AC voltage that low means all internal semiconductors see the exact same and unchanging internal 5, 12, 24, etc DC volts. Either all voltages inside electronics remains locked on perfect (even when bulbs dim to 50% intensity). Or electronics simply power off. Without any hardware damage and without any subverted sound.

Two different types of loads exist: resistive and reactive. That is completely irrelevant for you. Either a receptacle will provide sufficient power. Or a fuse or breaker trips saying you forgot to do some simple arithmetic addition.
I will say on thing, you are consistent. Consistently wrong.

Motors, heaters, toasters, and incandescent lamps are examples of linear loads.

Adjustable speed motor drives, DC motor drives and arcing equipment, rectifiers (power supplies, discharge lighting), ferromagnetic devices. Are examples of nonlinear loads.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
But will this surge protector limit the amount of power to the amp and reciever and/or adversely affect the sound quality?
No.
It says right in the product description:

  • Output Amperage Capacity: 15
  • Output Watt Capacity: 1800 Watts
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
I have the same amps Halo Amps as you, and I have them plugged in to a line conditioner, Furman Elite-20 PFi that I got new for about 60% off list. I had the Panamax before that and having them both plugged directly into the wall or not, I didn't hear any noticeable difference. In my mind, I will take that extra little bit of protection, even if it is more psychological. I have also have two dedicated 20amp circuits for my HT area.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
Motors, heaters, toasters, and incandescent lamps are examples of linear loads.
Anyone can see an incandescent bulb is non-linear. Measure its ohms. The resulting multiplication demonstrates non-linearity. Only one who knows this stuff says why with numbers. Another informed by hearsay and venom denies without even one sentence that says why. And no numbers.

Again, a 100 watt light bulb can demand up to 800 watts when starting. Why does it demand 8 times more current for a same voltage? It is non-linear. Even the IES Handbook (an industry bible) provides non-linear equations that describes how incandescent bulbs work. Non-linear nature of bulbs is how Bill and Dave (Hewlett and Packard) developed their graduate thesis and later the first successful HP product. One should know this stuff before posting denials and accusations.

Again, the numbers. Those ten 100 watt bulbs (rated at 8.3 amps) might demand 8000 watts (66 amps) when first powered on. That does not trip an 1800 watt (15 amp) breaker. That reality is relevant to the OP's and Tidan's questions.
An honest answer said why with numbers. An informative answer would have instead discussed resistive and reactive loads. But the relevant answer for the OP and Tidan sums up AC power/ampere numbers for each component/amp.

Ballpark numbers are provided with each appliance so that layman can do simple arithmetic. Ten 100 watt light bulbs are powered by one 15 amp circuit without tripping a fuse or breaker. Bulbs can demand 66 amps on power up without creating an overcurrent on a 15 amp circuit. We simplify the arithmetic. So that layman need not take a first semester electrical course or learn how breakers and fuses really work. The relevant answer involves arithmetic - numbers for incoming AC power.

Just measured a Sylvania 100 watt incandescent bulb on the scope. It consumed as much as 9.3 amps on startup. How is that 100 watt (0.83 amp) bulb linear when it consumes 7+ amps on startup? Those damning numbers get forgotten when hearsay replaces science. Rather than measure in the lab, some would rather attack the messenger with anger and more hearsay.

Summary of the relevant answer: A UL listed power strip must be 15 amps. That means the load can be 13 amps or 1560 watts (for technical reasons beyond this discussion). Sum up current or wattage numbers for each AC power input (not a rated 'output to speaker' wattage). If a sum is less than 13 amps or 1560 watts, then one power strip is more than sufficient (for the same reason ten 100 watt bulbs may demand 66 amps or 8000 watts on power up). Calculations are made arithmetic simple by numbers provided for each amp or other appliance.

Also demonstrated was how power conditioners are irrelevant to power purity or other problems. Best power 'cleaner' is already inside each amp. Best noise filter is located on the noise producer; not on its victims. Manufacturers such as Furman or Panamx will not discuss this since honesty and numbers can subvert profits.

Discussed above are overloads and noise. Other anomalies are separate discussions with different solutions. No magic box addresses all or even most anomalies.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
Tom, that's an incorrect use of the word 'non-linear'. Rickster listed some true non-linear loads. I don't know if there is a word for loads (like old fashioned light bulbs) that change their resistance as they warm-up (thermal something?).
 
W

westom

Audioholic
Rickster listed some true non-linear loads.
He listed items that draw a short and excessive current as non-linear loads. Then said,
Breakers trip thermally, not by a second or two over-current from a non-linear load.
What non-linear load also creates that large over-current? Incandescent bulbs. As demonstrated by above numbers.</SPAN>

A linear load is a resistor. None of those items are linear like a resistor. Neither incandescent lamp, hair dryer, nor electronics are linear loads. All draw a significant over-current when powered.

Which load is a most non-linear load? Incandescent bulb. Drawing maybe 8 times more current during power up.

Circuit breakers are not just thermally activated as he assumed. Circuit breakers trip both magnetically and thermally. But a non-linear load that draws over-current does not trip a breaker when simple arithmetic is performed. What does trip a breaker is more complex. But a consumer need only do simple addition to avert excessive currents.

In order to reduce some non-linearity, home electronics feature an in-rush current limiter. Incandescent bulbs, as demonstrated by numbers, create a largest non-linear load. And still those 66 amps would not trip a 15 amp breaker.

Return to the relevant point. What trips a breaker is complex. Calculations are simplified so that simple addition can avert a dangerous over-current. Do not sum speaker wattage. Sum AC input wattage (or current) for each amplifier or appliance. Then a non-linear load need not trip a breaker or fuse.

Please stop confusing others with irrelevant minutia. All demonstrate non-linear loading. Appliances can draw more than 15 amps and still not create an overload. Numbers are provided for each appliance so that any consumer need only do addition to avert a dangerous overload.
</SPAN>
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
.......Return to the relevant point.......
You're right, we should.

Why are you here?:confused:
This is an audio / Home Theater site.
You never, ever, contribute to anything related to what this site is about.

Many, many, EEE's have called you out on your crazy, incoherent (cut & paste) ramblings. This has been going on for years.

I would like to respectfully request that the Mods do something with westom.
He doesn't contribute about HT or even socially.

Thanks,
I feel uncomfortable having to say all of this. I hope something can be worked out.

Rick
 
J

justahumn

Audiophyte
was told the same thing by Emotiva... "still don't like the thought of interruption of power. there have been times on-off-on-off-on-off. Havea Cyberpower UPS (PFC) work flawlessly for years for the PC. Thinking about getting one for the HT
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
It is important to distinguish between actual non linear loads, such as rectifier input supplies, and time varying linear loads.

A light bulb is a time varying resistive load, but it is linear (not as w-dude stated). The time constant of the resistance is dependent on the heat capacity of the filament as well as the power draw. Typical incandescents will run approximately 8 times the current cold, but ramps down to nominal within roughly 250 milliseconds.

A motor will exhibit locked rotor current draw at startup, and depending on the class of motor, can run 5 to 7 times the nominal full speed/full load current at rotor lock. During the startup phase, the inductance and resistance will be responsible for the heavy load, and again, here the time constant will be the rotational inertia of the equivalent system. And again, it is a time dependent linear load (again, w-dude is incorrect).

Circuit breakers for the house have a magnetic regime where it is required by code to clear in the 10's of millisecond range, and a thermal regime which has a large time dependency associated with it. (here, w-dude is accurate) The thermal trip mechanism has a thermal capacity of the element which does this, and it is designed such that typical bulbs and motors within allowed rating will not false trip the breaker.

Lighting which includes an SMPS up front may or may not present a full linear load, depending on the use of PFC or not.

jn
 

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