Help on $2,000 Speaker Selection

C

canelli

Audioholic
Ok, I just got the AVR ordered :D and now I need some speakers for the game room. I have a challenge in selecting the right speakers and their placement.

I have a tv already mounted to the wall (near middle) on a scissor that pulls away from the wall and also swivels. Against the same wall are two large computer desks on either side of a media center which is right below the tv. The media center is only 40 inches wide and 21 inches tall (about 8 inches shorter than the desks). There are pictures above the two desks that extend approximately up to the same height as the tv (70 inches). This keeps me from placing speakers to either side of the tv.

When I run on a treadmill I rotate the tv all the way to one side and the sound is horrible. I have to keep cranking the volume up to discern voices.

I’d like some help in selecting speakers and their placement. My budget is around $2,000.

I have a few options on speakers and placement:

I can attach a sound bar to the tv mount and have it rotate with the tv. I feel like that that would be a big compromise on sound quality.

Second, I can get a center speaker or some bookshelves and place them on the media center which is somewhat of a cubbyhole and not very wide. When I am on the treadmill the speakers would be very off axis, but still better than the rear firing tv speakers.

Third option is to somehow mount speakers up higher above the tv facing downward and toed in. I am leaning to this option since I could space the speakers further apart and I wouldn’t be as far off axis while running. I just haven’t seen anyone do this and I am not sure which speakers would work for being mounted onto the face of the wall. :confused:
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Could you post a pic(s) of your space, You mentioned AVR, what are your intentions with the AVR and are you looking for a HT setup (multi-channel) speakers setup or just want better sound than your TV speakers?
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
Initially, I just need better sound than the tv, but I would like to grow it into a decent HT. Our den is already setup with 5.1 using B&W CM9 speakers and a JLF112 sub. In an ideal situation, I would get better speakers for the game room and then eventually rotate them to the den when I have the 5 speakers.

I am replacing a Pioneer SC-05 so I thought using it would be a perfect fit for powering speakers in the game room.

I will get some pictures posted in a bit.
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
Here are a few pictures of the game room from different views. The room is 18' long and 13' wide.

As you can see, I am a college football fan. I spend a lot of time running so this arrangement works good expect for the sound from the tv.




 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
How much listening will you do when you aren't running? Because if it isn't much, than $2k bookshelf speakers would be wasted in there as all the treadmill noise would wipe out any of the detail you could would from higher quality speakers. Either way I would get something that can keep a clean sound at loud levels, and I mount it on the walls, ie your third option. Since you are listening off axis, I would get something with good off-axis performance. you might try these Soundfield 1 Monitors, they have great off-axis performance and powered woofers so they are perfect if you aren't using a sub. The problem is finding a mount good enough to hold them, as they are fairly large and heavy for bookshelf speakers. I would just use a shelf for those, I think even the AM40 mounts would have a hard time with 35 pounders.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Initially, I just need better sound than the tv, but I would like to grow it into a decent HT. Our den is already setup with 5.1 using B&W CM9 speakers and a JLF112 sub. In an ideal situation, I would get better speakers for the game room and then eventually rotate them to the den when I have the 5 speakers.

I am replacing a Pioneer SC-05 so I thought using it would be a perfect fit for powering speakers in the game room.

I will get some pictures posted in a bit.
So you want to use the Pioneer in the game room with a pair of speakers that will eventually be moved to the Den and start to build the game room into a HT setup with all new speakers? So you want something for now that would be better than your TV's speakers?
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
I would say 60% running and 40% just watching tv. I am checking out the Soundfield 1 Monitors. Have you had the opportunity to listen to them?

So you want to use the Pioneer in the game room with a pair of speakers
Yes :D

So you want something for now that would be better than your TV's speakers?
Yes :D

eventually be moved to the Den and start to build the game room into a HT setup with all new speakers?
I had the same thoughts as shadyJ about spending $2,000 on bookshelf speakers to listen to while I run. I was trying to combine the process of eventually upgrading the den speakers with getting speakers for the game room. I knew it was a stretch. If I had the budget, it would be a way to start sneaking in some KEF 201/2s into the house. Ok, back to reality.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I haven't heard the Soundfield Monitors, they merely have the qualities in a speaker that I would look for in your situation. Here is a thread about them, and near the end someone who has heard them gives their impressions.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Personally, in a somewhat unique situation like this, I think one of the goals is going to be using a speaker setup that can move along with the television so that the sound and image are always lined up and coming from the same plane/axis.

Revel has a great option with their LCR8, which is part of the Concerta On-Wall series. The LCR8 is a single, nearly 40" wide speaker that includes the Left, Center, and Right Front speakers all in one, sealed, aluminum cabinet. It's much like a "soundbar", but it's truly just three speakers that happen to share an outer cabinet.

So far as on-wall speakers go, I was quite impressed with the M10 and C10 Revel on-walls, which are part of the same series and use the exact same drivers and tweeters and cabinet design. You can read my impressions of those speakers in my post here . The LCR8 is basically three of the smaller M8 speakers all put into one cabinet ;)

Figuring out how to mount the LCR8 above or below your television might be a bit of a challenge. But the included mount for the LCR8 allows for some adjustment, so I'm sure that with some planning and a trip to the hardware store, there's a simple enough way to get the wall mount affixed to the same scissor mount as the TV. If all else fails, you could simply use the included table top stand and just sit the LCR8 on top of your entertainment unit.

Now, the LCD8 definitely needs to work with the aid of a subwoofer. I found Revel to be spot on with its recommendation of a 110Hz cross-over to the subwoofer. That's a little higher than normal, but with a good sub placed at the front of the room, the blend is still quite natural and pleasing.

I'd highly recommend a nice, compact, sealed sub like the SVSound SB12-NSD.

Revel only sells through authorized dealers, but you can find the Concerta speakers for lower prices from "grey market" dealers. I've used DigitalCraze a few times now and I've been satisfied with them. You have to be prepared for the usual "grey market" dealings - ie. phone calls after you've placed the order to inform you that shipping isn't free afterall (even thought the website says it is), or that it will take a few weeks for the item to be available for shipping with the usual options to "upgrade" offered as an alternative. It's definitely a little shady, but so far, all of my dealings have gone through without a problem. The people who've called from Digital Craze have been polite and not pushy. Most importantly, communication with them has always been solid for me. They've kept in touch with emails or phone calls at all stages of the buying process. So you lose any manufacturers warranty and there might be some waiting involved, but they do come through and with a considerably lower price. That said, if you're buying more than one item, you can always haggle with the authorized Revel dealers too ;)

MSRP for the LCR8 is $750. DigitalCraze sells it for $600. You can easily round out a 5.1 system with the M8 on-wall speakers that perfectly match the LCR8, or you could opt for the very good Revel Concerta S12 surround speakers, which you can configure as di-pole, bi-pole, mono-pole or dual mono (literally two speakers in one cabinet), all with the flick of a switch! I really like the S12 since I personally favor diffuse surround speakers. But the little M8 might make more sense, and they're much smaller and very easy to mount on the wall.

You should have plenty of room left in the budget for a great subwoofer. Like I said, I think the SVSound SB12-NSD is the perfect match. Emotiva's subs might also be a good option.

If you buy from DigitalCraze, you could get the Revel Concerta LCR8 ($600) with a pair of Revel Concerta M8 for surrounds ($210 each, so $420 for the pair) and actually get DUAL SVSound SB12-NSD subs ($1150) and still be within your $2000 budget! That's a heck of a good system in your particular setup, let me tell you! :D

Hope that helps.
 
P

pureiso

Junior Audioholic
To be honest, I think the situation you have could definitely benefit from omnidirectional or open baffle design.

Something like these (note they are a kit): A/V-1RS

Or even a pair of used X-Omnis like I currently have setup. Granted you won't be in the exact sweet spot, but it will still sound great. You can always adjust the toe in when you are on the treadmill or not.

Possibly just go with a L/R setup, that way you can easily adjust the toe in as required.
 
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C

canelli

Audioholic
The Soundfield Monitors look interesting as well as the “coming soon” HT speakers. Thanks for providing the link. I spent a lot of time reading about the speaker and the designer last night. They seem to have gotten good reviews. I agree that I probably wouldn’t need a sub with these speakers.

The bamboo look makes the Sierra speakers distinctive. The Sierra-1 is a rear ported speakers. I wonder how close/far to the wall they need to be placed?
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
FirstReflection,
I took a look at the Revel LCR8. I like the idea of it being 3 separate speakers in a sound bar rather than just one speaker with lots of drivers. I have considered using tslots to fabricate a bracket to mount speakers to the tv mount. The tslot manufacturers will normally drill and cut them to size. Sure its overkill, but I am like that being an engineer. Luckily I oversized the TV mount when I bought it so weight shouldn’t be an issue unless I get a really heavy speaker.

I need to look for a place to a sub. I wonder how my wife would like the SVSound sitting on her desk.;)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
FirstReflection,
I took a look at the Revel LCR8. I like the idea of it being 3 separate speakers in a sound bar rather than just one speaker with lots of drivers. I have considered using tslots to fabricate a bracket to mount speakers to the tv mount. The tslot manufacturers will normally drill and cut them to size. Sure its overkill, but I am like that being an engineer. Luckily I oversized the TV mount when I bought it so weight shouldn’t be an issue unless I get a really heavy speaker.

I need to look for a place to a sub. I wonder how my wife would like the SVSound sitting on her desk.;)
Yeah, the LCR8 weighs a little less than 12 lbs. So it's by no means a heavy speaker. It shouldn't be any problem at all in terms of weight for the TV scissor mount ;)

The Revel Concerta On-walls were pretty much the only on-wall speakers that impressed me without getting close to $3000 each in the Paradigm W5 or Focal IW1003Be. I was thoroughly unimpressed by the various Polk, Def Tech and Paradigm on-wall and soundbar speakers that I auditioned.

So while I don't often recommend soundbars, yours is a situation where I think the design makes perfect sense. And the Revel speakers are good, so it's nice to have them as an option for recommendation :)

But yeah, there's no way you'd want to use the LCR8 without a subwoofer. And you really can't do better in terms of a very compact sub than the SVSound SB12-NSD. For basically being a 14 inch cube, it's pretty darn amazing! And with its very linear and extended top end, it can blend really easily and nicely with the bass shy Revel on-walls.

Looking at your pics, your front wall does indeed look completely filled for space. You might be able to tuck the SB12-NSD under one of the desks. Again, it's only a 14" cube and it uses a curved, metal grill that's quite sturdy, so you wouldn't have to worry quite as much about accidentally kicking it under the desk :p You obviously would want to avoid kicking it, but at least the metal grill would provide some decent protection for the driver.

But the better solution would probably to just position the little sub on the side wall somewhere. If you go with dual SB12-NSD, you could have one on each side wall and get the advantages of more even and linear bass throughout the entire room, rather than suffering the standing waves and room modes that are unavoidable with just a single sub.

Obviously, my math was off in my last post :p Sorry, wrote it very late at night and wasn't really thinking - pretty sure I was only calculating for ONE m8 surround and not the pair :eek:

But yeah, the LCR8 at $600, and dual SB12-NSD at $1150 is certainly still doable within your budget, and you could go a little over budget to add the pair of M8 as surrounds, or you could just use other speakers as the surrounds, or use no surround speakers at all ;)
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
I am working to stay within budget and have gotten some good options so far :), but I am curious about using something like the JBL 6332. I think it can be mounted both vertically or horizontally which is a major plus.

Doesn't it measure well for on / off axis? How does it sound for music and movies? :confused:
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
How do the V-2's compare to the Super Vs? Open baffle speakers always draw my attention.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
When I run on a treadmill I rotate the tv all the way to one side and the sound is horrible. I have to keep cranking the volume up to discern voices.
Let's start with this issue. Forget trying to "beat noise with more noise". It's not a solution, it's a band-aid. What you need are headphones with good noise isolation for running on the treatmill. I recommend the Denon DN-HP1000 headphones. You'll seriously thank yourself. Put the noise on the outside and the "voices" on the inside.

I can attach a sound bar to the tv mount and have it rotate with the tv. I feel like that that would be a big compromise on sound quality.

Yuck sound bar.

As for the rest, there's a lot we could recommend you. It's tough to suggest where to go. In my opinion you should start with the headphones though - they're the "solution" to the current issue. Once you're satisfied with the sound during the treadmill sessions, you can shift your focus to a sound for "quiet" sessions. Don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I am working to stay within budget and have gotten some good options so far , but I am curious about using something like the JBL 6332. I think it can be mounted both vertically or horizontally which is a major plus.
Those would be fantastic. But again they wouldn't solve the secondary issue of the treadmill.

How do the V-2's compare to the Super Vs? Open baffle speakers always draw my attention.
Wait, I thought you wanted to wall mount?

If not, you should seriously consider the Philharmonic 2 speakers. They are nothing short of excellent.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hey Can, I think we are getting way off track here, if all you want to do is better your flat panel's sound, spending $2000 is redicuously expensive to do so. Now if you want these mains to be a part of an integrated HT setup down the road I say go for it. First off I would move those two desks to the side walls if possible, this would open up all kind of options for you. Reposition your bike to face the center of front wall so you don't have to angle your display and toe in your speakers to the right, and you don't have to deal with placement options. You can then consider some nice stand monitors like the Sierra 1's or Sierra Towers to use with the Pioneer receiver. I seem to have lost the original scheme of this post, 1st replace or better the TV's sound and 2nd get some nice mains that you could integrate (sneak) into the DEN, what is it my friend?:eek:
Jeff
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
+1 for the headphones and Phil 2's for quiet time............
 

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