Help needed wiring Def Tech Subs

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scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
I'm a little embarrassed to say what my puny subs are but I think my question may be answered w/o saying. My DT sub allows for wiring with low level and high level outputs from the amp/receiver along with an LFE input. One option is to run from the L and R mains (from the amp/reciever), the speaker cable to the high level inputs and then connect my mains (L & R) from the SW (L & R output, or even L out and R out in a stereo SW setup). So, from that setup, I can set the roll-off and then from the SW, branch off to my front mains (which are not really proficient at low end anyway).

My question is this, (and I guess someone will likely have to be familiar with DT's convention); When I'm using the high level inputs (on the SW and from the speaker output from the amp/receiver), is it my receiver's amp that is driving the SW or the onboard (200W) amp driving the SW?? I know when I use the low level or LFE outputs, that the onborad amp driving it but am a little confuzzed w/ the scenario I just clumsily tried to explain.


O.K., geez louise let me try to make my question halfway coherent. Running speaker cable from the amp/reciever's front L & R mains into the SW's high level inputs, which amp is driving the SW, the onboard SW amp or the amp of the AVR??
(Yeah, that wasn't much clearer.)


Also, when I grow I will get some HSU's. :)
 
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scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
O.K. here are the wiring diagrams from a manual that is the same as mine.

http://www.definitivetech.com/documents/manuals/ProSub 1000/ProSub800_1000_Manual.pdf

It is on page 7 where they give the high level inputs. My sub is exactly the same except it is not this exact model.

My only question is, if I wire it with the powered output on my AVR, is it using the amp from my AVR or from the onboard amp? And, if your able, explain what is going on if it is just using the amp of the powered sub (onboard amp). TIA.
 
Knucklehead90

Knucklehead90

Audioholic
No matter which connections you use the AVR will not be supplying very much power to the sub. Speaker level and LFE inputs draws very little power from the receiver - enough to supply the subs amp with a signal. The reason for the input and output jacks (speaker level) is to filter (crossover) the signal going to the front L/R speakers so they won't be playing the same frequencies as the sub - this gives the front L/R speakers more power for mid range and highs reproduction. Using the LFE input and properly setting the crossover in your AVR to match your front L/R speaker's abilities accomplishes the same goal. Make sure to set the crossover frequency dial to the highest number when using the LFE and AVR to control the sub - set the dial to match your front L/R lowest rolloff point. If your fronts play lower than 80hz set the crossover to 80hz - this is THX spec. If your fronts roll off higher then set the crossover to where they roll off at - i.e 120hz etc.
 
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scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
Well I guess I should have added that I would also like the option to listen to plain ol' 2 ch music and I thought since my mains are not particularly adept at bass I could wire in that configuration. But I'm essentially jumping to the mains at the back of the S?W so the speaker cable must be carrying enough watts to drive the main fronts.

I'm just trying to figure out how the SW is using just a "signal" of of the speaker cable while the mains would be getting all the power my AVR can supply to drive them. My thought was that now my AVR is driving the SW also.
 
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scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
EDIT: Well, I just got off the phone with Chet at Def Tech. He explained that for the high level input, the SW only grabs a line level signal at whatever the crossover is set at (and below) and sends the the power (watts) to the terminals at the SW for speaker outputs for the mains. So the SW is discriminating the lower frequency setting and using the onboard amp to power the driver.
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
And the High level out on the sub is high passed at 80 Hz fixed, see specs on pg 11.
 
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scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
And the High level out on the sub is high passed at 80 Hz fixed, see specs on pg 11.
Greetings furry friend from the Metro area just north of you. My model, the prosub 200tl do not share the exact specs (although they are on pg 11). Mine have a variable low pass crosover (40-150) with adjustment dial located on the back.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
scooter that is if you use the LFE input can you use the variable crossover, If I recall almost all the DT subs have a fixed 80Hz crossover when using the high pass speaker inputs, from the lowly prosub 600 to the mighty Supercube 1 (not sure on the referance or Trinity but am 90% sure they have fixed crossovers also)
 
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scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
scooter that is if you use the LFE input can you use the variable crossover, If I recall almost all the DT subs have a fixed 80Hz crossover when using the high pass speaker inputs, from the lowly prosub 600 to the mighty Supercube 1 (not sure on the referance or Trinity but am 90% sure they have fixed crossovers also)
Interesting, because from pg 9 in the manual, it reads word for word like mine, and from the context of hooking up mains from the SW at the high level inputs, they go on to explain about adjusting gain and crossover to taste. I must be not getting it.

Well, from the manual, someone explain how I should understand this:

Setting the Level and Crossover Frequency When Using
the ProSub with ProMonitors

When you have the ProMonitors wired to the speaker level outputs
on your ProSub
, the following are our suggestions for starting settings
on your controls. Remember, these are just approximate settings and we
suggest experimenting to determine the best-sounding settings for your
particular set-up.
1. Set the variable low pass crossover control on
the back of the ProSub to approximately 2
o’clock. Please note that the exact frequency
will depend on many factors including specific
positions of the speakers in the room, so you
might experiment with a slightly higher or
lower setting to achieve ideal blending
between the sub and the satellites for your
particular set-up. Listen to a wide variety of
music to determine the correct setting for this
in your system.
2. Set the subwoofer level control to 12 o’clock.
Please note that the exact level depends on
many factors including your room size,
position of the speakers, etc. as well as your
personal listening taste, so you might
experiment with the subwoofer level while
listening to a wide variety of music until you
achieve the ideal setting for your system
 
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scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
Also, I don't have a way of showing an illustration like the manual, but there is a rotary dial for the gain and the roll-off adjustment and it is addressed further here. I don't know, I guess I don't absolutely have to understand every nuance to how the speaker operates to enjoy them (as long as it doesn't sound gawd awful). I guess my frustration is just trying to understand what I am reading.

Low Pass Filter
Your subwoofer’s back panel features a continuously variable low pass
filter. This filter is continuously variable between 40 and 150 Hz. This
low pass filter control is used to obtain the optimum transition between
the subwoofer and your main speakers. This control should be set by ear
for best performance in your room. Set it to where it sounds best to you.

If you are running your main speakers full range, we would generally
recommend setting the low pass filter fairly low (40-70 Hz). If you are
connecting your ProSub using the the LFE in, turn the low pass filter all
the way up in order to get optimal impedence matching. When using the
ProSub with Definitive ProMonitors, please consult the instruction
manual section “Using the ProSub with Definitive ProMonitors.”
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
scooter that is if you use the LFE input can you use the variable crossover, If I recall almost all the DT subs have a fixed 80Hz crossover when using the high pass speaker inputs outputs, from the lowly prosub 600 to the mighty Supercube 1 (not sure on the referance or Trinity but am 90% sure they have fixed crossovers also)
These ProSub amps haven’t changed much over the last decade. The Variable Low-Pass Crossover affects both the High/Low-Level inputs. Yes, all the way up through to the Trinity with the fixed 80Hz high-pass crossover when using the high-level/speaker outputs.
 
S

scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
scooter that is if you use the LFE input can you use the variable crossover, If I recall almost all the DT subs have a fixed 80Hz crossover when using the high pass speaker inputs, from the lowly prosub 600 to the mighty Supercube 1 (not sure on the referance or Trinity but am 90% sure they have fixed crossovers also)
Well dammit, now wait. Now that I think about it, that doesn't comport with what Chet explained re: my original question. He said that the "high-level" signal from the AVR's "speaker out" would be "converted/utilized" as a "line level" signal to the amp on the SW at and below whatever I set it, and that the high level signal was still a high-level signal (wattage) at and above that setting to the mains.
 
S

scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
These ProSub amps haven’t changed much over the last decade. The Variable Low-Pass Crossover affects both the High/Low-Level inputs. Yes, all the way up through to the Trinity with the fixed 80Hz high-pass crossover when using the high-level/speaker outputs.
Now I'm really confused. So are you saying that I am able to exploit the variability or not? But again, I can't help but remember how Chet explained it. Also, these subs are brand new but are at least 10 yrs old.
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
Now I'm really confused. So are you saying that I am able to exploit the variability or not? But again, I can't help but remember how Chet explained it. Also, these subs are brand new but are at least 10 yrs old.
Yes, the Variable Low-Pass Crossover affects both the LFE input and the speaker level inputs only for the sub. If you connect your speakers to the speaker level outs, only frequencies above the fixed 80 Hz crossover will continue on and you would set the LPF around 110-120Hz which is what they suggest using the ProMonitors. Here's a read that might help: https://rs6.eporia.com/pv_obj_cache/pv_obj_id_7EFD0E0F2DFFFBDF118B3A07847BB17238100400/filename/techpaper102.pdf

What speakers are you using?
 
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scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
Rti8's on one floor (The set that I want to wire in this manner) and RTi12's on another floor.



Alright, pick yourself up off the floor and stop giggling.

I do have a pair of 802 Nautilus also.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
Scooter this is direct from DT website.

ProSub series subwoofers have continuously adjustable low pass filter controls which allow you to choose a roll-off of from 40 to 150 Hz for the high end of the subwoofer. This unique "dual stage" roll-off is extremely steep which ensures perfect blending with your main speakers as well as eliminating unwanted upper bass or midrange radiation from the subwoofer. This is especially important because it gives you much greater flexibility in placing your subwoofer in your room without being able to hear where it is specifically located. All our powered subwoofers also have a separate low-level direct LFE input for Dolby Digital which bypasses the crossover network. All models have a built-in speaker level high-pass crossover preset at 80 Hz (except ProSub 60 preset at 100Hz) and, of course, a precision level control allows you to perfectly adjust the volume of the subwoofer to match your system and room as well as to fulfill your own personal sonic preferences.
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
The ProSub 200TL is a truly superb high-performance powered subwoofer of awe-inspiring low-frequency capability, perfect for any high-quality home theater or music system. Its 12" high-definition long-throw driver is tightly coupled, using Definitive's proprietary PowerField technology, to a high-current, high-headroom 250-watt Infinite Power Source MOSFET amplifier. The ProSub 200TL includes continuously variable low-pass filter (40-150Hz) plus 5-way gold-plated speaker level inputs and outputs, low-level RCA inputs (including direct LFE sub-in), overdrive protection and auto on/off. In addition, built-in speaker level outputs incorporate a high-pass crossover for perfect blending.

ProSub 200TL Specifications :
Dimensions : 13 3/4"W x 18 5/8"D x 14"H
Frequency Response : 18-150 Hz
Driver Complement : One high-definition 12" driver with polymer cone
Built-in Amplifier : 250 watts RMS
Low Pass Crossover : 24 dB/octave continuously adjustable variable (40-150 Hz), plus direct LFE input option
High Pass Crossover : 6 dB/octave at 80Hz
Auto On/Off : Signal sensing.
Finish : Black ash or white laminate
Weight : 34 lbs.
Since the sub’s speaker level High Pass Crossover uses a gentle 6 dB/octave roll-off, meaning the output will be down 6 dB at 40Hz, this should work pretty well connecting through to the RTi8s. A crossover point around 60-80Hz on the sub should work nicely.
 
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scooterp7

Audioholic Intern
Since the sub’s speaker level High Pass Crossover uses a gentle 6 dB/octave roll-off, meaning the output will be down 6 dB at 40Hz, this should work pretty well connecting through to the RTi8s. A crossover point around 60-80Hz on the sub should work nicely.
Okay, I finally fooled around with this last night while watching "Over the Hedge " with the kids last night. When the var. Xover was at 40HZ (during a somewhat tame scene audio-wise) the sub was nearly silent except for a brief rumble here or there. I then turned it all the way up to 150Hz and the sub got very active (obviously reproducing more since the greater bandwidth).

Now what it did to the RTi8's, I have no idea. But from what I gather here, the Rti8's (when wired in this manner) will never get a signal below 80HZ and will get a full signal above 80HZ. Is that correct??


Anyhoo, I like the way it sounds.

Further, these are the subs I have:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Definitive-Technology-ProSub-200TL-240V-BLACK-P-N-E2P3-/170415438638?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item27ad8d3b2e

I purchased 4 and the seller shipped me them for the same price as one. It has that "new speaker smell" and sound pretty good until I can do a home-build using some of the drivers that Chris has recommended.

I did have to buy a step-up transformer for ~ $35 on Amazon for ea. one (although if I had to do it over again, I recently saw a 2000W model for the price of 2 500W models. In that setup I would buy just two of the 2K Watt models.)
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
It did nothing to the 8s, but you had double output from the speakers and sub above the 80Hz point. The speakers still receive frequencies below the crossover point but the output decreases as the frequencies drop according to the slope of the filter used.
 
Trikyneubs

Trikyneubs

Audiophyte
To recap: if subwoofer high level / speaker level in & outs are being used (perhaps your AVR rca sub out isn't working) & your main / front speakers comfortably go lower than 80hz then ONLY set the sub knob to 80hz because if you go any higher you will duplicate frequencies from 80hz upto knob setting & any lower you will miss out on 80hz down to knob setting.
Because my mains go down only to 50hz comfortably (+/-2db) I may try avoiding the subwoofer "high level / speaker level preset 80hz High Pass Filter" by running an external amp to my mains set to large/full range but with a pair of 50hz in line rca crossover plugs ($30/pr) and run subs from AVR front speaker terminals with sub knob setting near 50hz. All this to get my MAINS to play frequencies 50hz to 80hz instead of the subs. However, Sub xover does 12db/octave roll off while 50hz HPF plugs do 6db/octave roll off...
Please correct me if I'm wrong / first time post :)
 
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