Help me spend 5k the right way. The tale of a suburban husband.

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
He has a pair of Ultra Towers available to him for $1200. I was saying that's almost a "jump on those" price if they're in great shape, but he's got a start with Mirage, which I'm not at all familiar with. They look nice and seem to review fairly well so I'm not real sure if the Ultras will offer enough of an improvement to justify switching gears on the whole front end. If he likes the OMDs now he could put some more cash into subwoofage, and I know we both agree that's the biggest opportunity.

That said, yeah. I'm pretty sure the Ultras will have some more midrange punch and capable of higher spl without distorting. I've cranked mine pretty hard and never heard them misbehave like, ever. Even full range with some bass heavy material. They can handle a lot of power.
Imo, the ultras would be an upgrade more than lateral. They would have much more bass/midrange capability than the mirages would, and that is what I think he’s looking for. Not that Mirage speakers “sound bad”, they’re just not the same.
And yes, we both agree on subwoofage. The DT and the BIC need to go. Good starters, but that’s it.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Imo, the ultras would be an upgrade more than lateral. They would have much more bass/midrange capability than the mirages would, and that is what I think he’s looking for. Not that Mirage speakers “sound bad”, they’re just not the same.
And yes, we both agree on subwoofage. The DT and the BIC need to go. Good starters, but that’s it.
Okay, I'll concede with you on the speakers. I've never had an opportunity to listen to anything from Mirage, but I know the Ultras! 1200 for Ultra towers really is a pretty good deal too. If @RyanMN has the room he could save a few bucks on the center by getting a single bookshelf too. That how I rolled and it made for a mighty fine center channel.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Okay, I'll concede with you on the speakers. I've never had an opportunity to listen to anything from Mirage, but I know the Ultras! 1200 for Ultra towers really is a pretty good deal too. If @RyanMN has the room he could save a few bucks on the center by getting a single bookshelf too. That how I rolled and it made for a mighty fine center channel.
I think that’s great advice. Like I mentioned, my experience with mirage was a while ago. While I did enjoy them. They sounded clean and detailed on top, there was a lack of immediacy and clear imaging if that makes sense. Hopefully he can test drive the ultras! I think they’d stay.
 
R

RyanMN

Audioholic Intern
Thanks everyone. I have been working on the space all week. I installed new recessed lighting and smart dimmer switches. Today I am installing velvet onto my drop ceiling near the projector screen. Cabinets are on order and I have found a new area for my equipment. My plan seems to change daily but I think I have some focus this morning.

I need a new AVR upstairs regardless. So it only makes sense to move the Yamaha upstairs and replace it. The consensuses seems to be focus on other things other than spending a bundle on electronics. Last night I thought I narrowed it down to two choices.

Denon X3700 or X4700. I thought about possibly doing the 3700 and then buying external amplification for the fronts. That would be more expensive than the 4700 but I get to keep the amps forever. Or I just go with the 4700. 125w should be enough for most speakers correct?

So I get a new AVR and then I need subs. I like the SVS line up. Iv done some reading and it seems like ported is the way to go. Much to the disappointment of my wife Im sure.The size of the SB 3000 or SB 4000 would be nice but since I am dedicating the area to this hobby I am thinking I go with 2 PB 3000s. Im pretty sure I will then be chasing rattles in my drop ceiling for the rest of my life haha.

Just like that I have spent around $4,700-5k if I have to pay retail. I am going to go listen to those Ultras. If they blow me away I might pull the trigger just because they are discounted so heavy. That being said with all the beneficial changes happening in my layout I am not in a hurry to buy speakers. Its easy to get caught up in the toy buying but I should probably get everything laid out properly. Take good advice form this forum and calibrate everything in my new layout/set up. Then if I still feel like I need new speakers do it. I am 99% sure I will end up with new speakers at some point regardless. Iv pushed my OMD15s hard and I know what they can and cannot do, I just have never had such massive sub woofer power behind them.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks everyone. I have been working on the space all week. I installed new recessed lighting and smart dimmer switches. Today I am installing velvet onto my drop ceiling near the projector screen. Cabinets are on order and I have found a new area for my equipment. My plan seems to change daily but I think I have some focus this morning.

I need a new AVR upstairs regardless. So it only makes sense to move the Yamaha upstairs and replace it. The consensuses seems to be focus on other things other than spending a bundle on electronics. Last night I thought I narrowed it down to two choices.

Denon X3700 or X4700. I thought about possibly doing the 3700 and then buying external amplification for the fronts. That would be more expensive than the 4700 but I get to keep the amps forever. Or I just go with the 4700. 125w should be enough for most speakers correct?

So I get a new AVR and then I need subs. I like the SVS line up. Iv done some reading and it seems like ported is the way to go. Much to the disappointment of my wife Im sure.The size of the SB 3000 or SB 4000 would be nice but since I am dedicating the area to this hobby I am thinking I go with 2 PB 3000s. Im pretty sure I will be then be chasing rattles in my drop ceiling for the rest of my life haha.

Just like that I have spent around $4,700-5k if I have to pay retail. I am going to go listen to those Ultras. If they blow me away I might pull the trigger just because they are discounted so heavy. That being said with all the beneficial changes happening in my layout I am not in a hurry to buy speakers. Its easy to get caught up in the toy buying but I should probably get everything laid out properly. Take good advice form this forum and calibrate everything in my new layout/set up. Then if I still feel like I need new speakers do it. I am 99% sure I will end up with new speakers at some point regardless. Iv pushed my OMD15s hard and I know what they can and cannot do, I just have never had such massive sub woofer power behind them.
Man. It's refreshing to see someone listen to advice and make good decisions! I think a pair of PB3000s is a great plan for your space and should be well up to the task!

I like your plan with the 3700- possibly add an amp. As far as that goes I'd just run it by itself at first and see how it goes. No need to buy the extra amp right off the bat, tho you're right in that it can stay with you through any updates with receivers. The 3700 is a great AVR and I can't think of much the 4700 offers over the 3700 that I would consider necessary, and the small bump in power is pretty much a wash. You have to double your power for every 3 dB of volume gained. A lot of folks don't know that.

Give those Ultras a listen! They're really nice speakers. I'd have kept mine but I needed more funds to complete my own upgrade. I can still picture the look on the buyer's face when I played some nice, clean recordings during his demo. "Wow! Now THAT'S impressive!", he said. "I think you have a sale, sir!". Made me feel all warm and fuzzy, lol. Oh, and I got 1500 for mine!
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
If you are in the trades can you DIY subs? There are some tremendous values on that front. Just asking.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Give those Ultras a listen! They're really nice speakers. I'd have kept mine but I needed more funds to complete my own upgrade. I can still picture the look on the buyer's face when I played some nice, clean recordings during his demo. "Wow! Now THAT'S impressive!", he said. "I think you have a sale, sir!". Made me feel all warm and fuzzy, lol. Oh, and I got 1500 for mine!
If he goes with those Ultra's for $1200 then a center channel upgrade should be done. I wouldn't mix the Mirage Center with the SVS L/R. So that brings his budget down to $3800. Dual HSU leave him with $1600. At this point it's either an AVR or SVS center, but not both unless the budget goes up a few hundred.

If this is going to be new speakers all the way around:

Dual HSU $2200
SVS Ultra $1200
SVS Ultra Center $699
Marantz 8K Ultra HD AV Receiver SR5015 $1099

$5200 all in.

 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks everyone. I have been working on the space all week. I installed new recessed lighting and smart dimmer switches. Today I am installing velvet onto my drop ceiling near the projector screen. Cabinets are on order and I have found a new area for my equipment. My plan seems to change daily but I think I have some focus this morning.

I need a new AVR upstairs regardless. So it only makes sense to move the Yamaha upstairs and replace it. The consensuses seems to be focus on other things other than spending a bundle on electronics. Last night I thought I narrowed it down to two choices.

Denon X3700 or X4700. I thought about possibly doing the 3700 and then buying external amplification for the fronts. That would be more expensive than the 4700 but I get to keep the amps forever. Or I just go with the 4700. 125w should be enough for most speakers correct?

So I get a new AVR and then I need subs. I like the SVS line up. Iv done some reading and it seems like ported is the way to go. Much to the disappointment of my wife Im sure.The size of the SB 3000 or SB 4000 would be nice but since I am dedicating the area to this hobby I am thinking I go with 2 PB 3000s. Im pretty sure I will then be chasing rattles in my drop ceiling for the rest of my life haha.

Just like that I have spent around $4,700-5k if I have to pay retail. I am going to go listen to those Ultras. If they blow me away I might pull the trigger just because they are discounted so heavy. That being said with all the beneficial changes happening in my layout I am not in a hurry to buy speakers. Its easy to get caught up in the toy buying but I should probably get everything laid out properly. Take good advice form this forum and calibrate everything in my new layout/set up. Then if I still feel like I need new speakers do it. I am 99% sure I will end up with new speakers at some point regardless. Iv pushed my OMD15s hard and I know what they can and cannot do, I just have never had such massive sub woofer power behind them.
The point you made about have a good sub to bolster those mains is highly valid. The only thing I’ll add is that as @TLS Guy has professed many times. The mid band takes probably the most amount of power, and is hardest to do in a realistic way. Just a point of reference. I’ve played drums(and other instruments) for the majority of my life. There’s a LOT of midrange there, and ime creating scale of instruments isn’t easy.
More to your point of HT usage, also imo/ime if you’re watching a film like fury, or hacksaw ridge, the scale of tanks and .50 cal MG’s should be delivered by all the speakers and not just subs. You can raise the XO but Ime that doesn’t really do the same job as capable mains.
I don’t think the mirages can deliver that in the same way the ultras, or other speakers with
larger/more drivers. Whichever AVR you choose, I would definitely try without an amp first. And yeah, wives don’t like the idea of huge subs, but after time they tend to become fixtures and they’re just there.
FWIW, I’m not raggin on your speakers, I liked the ones I heard. I just think you’ll like the ultras more.
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
If he goes with those Ultra's for $1200 then a center channel upgrade should be done. I wouldn't mix the Mirage Center with the SVS L/R. So that brings his budget down to $3800. Dual HSU leave him with $1600. At this point it's either an AVR or SVS center, but not both unless the budget goes up a few hundred.

If this is going to be new speakers all the way around:

Dual HSU $2200
SVS Ultra $1200
SVS Ultra Center $699
Marantz 8K Ultra HD AV Receiver SR5015 $1099

$5200 all in.

Good points here. I do like @Pogre ‘s BS center idea.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
If he goes with those Ultra's for $1200 then a center channel upgrade should be done. I wouldn't mix the Mirage Center with the SVS L/R. So that brings his budget down to $3800. Dual HSU leave him with $1600. At this point it's either an AVR or SVS center, but not both unless the budget goes up a few hundred.

If this is going to be new speakers all the way around:

Dual HSU $2200
SVS Ultra $1200
SVS Ultra Center $699
Marantz 8K Ultra HD AV Receiver SR5015 $1099

$5200 all in.
I agree, and even suggested a single bookshelf if he has room. I went with an Ultra book for my center ($399 from their outlet), got very good performance and saved a few dollars. That Ultra center is one hell of a center channel, but the Bookshelf is well up to the task too.
 
R

RyanMN

Audioholic Intern
Did I mention wrapping 33 ceiling tiles and their tracks in velvet sucks balls. You have to pay attention to every square and make sure the grain of the velvet is consistent on the rectangle pieces.

Regarding budget I would say I have some wiggle room. Improving the basement overall is earning me husband points. That being said I am down here listening to music while I work. I know these subs are to small for the space, but honestly there is some decent base down here. Possibly because the subs are both now on a foundation wall? Would it be worth considering just getting one pb3000 now, then get the Ultra towers and center? Would it be totally out of wack to use the pb 3000 as my main and back it up with my old super cube sealed sub as "back up" just spit balling.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
 
R

RyanMN

Audioholic Intern
If you are in the trades can you DIY subs? There are some tremendous values on that front. Just asking.
I haven't really considered it but I will look into it. Time is money however. Working an extra job or two doing what I know might take less time and pay for a manufactured sub and then some. Covid has everyone spending money on home improvements and business is very good right now.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'm late to he party, but here are my two cents:
Back off of the throttle a little bit!
Sequentially:
1) You are rearranging your room - big deal for the sound!
2) Changing the sub(s) is the obvious weakness in your current gear! Again big deal for the sound!
3) $1200 for a pair of Ultras is a great deal and you should have no problem selling them on Craigslist for $1200 (assuming they are in fine shape)
4) Replace the AVR, but know that Anthem is a waste of money - generally Anthem measures worse than the mainstream units such as Denon, Marantz, Yamaha despite the high price!

1&2) As far as I am concerned 1 & 2 are no-brainers! You might want to wait a week or so between 1 and 2 simply to drink in and observe the changes from your rearrangement of the room while running your original gear if you are the curious sort.
3) Normally I would say after the rearrangement and new (serious) subs, take time to totally reevaluate your system because you may well experience a totally fulfilling system. However the $1200 deal on the Ultra towers is compelling and I think it is a good idea to spend some time comparing the Ultras vs the Mirage when you can do it with so little cost (given you can sell the Ultras quickly at $1200). I have heard both and they are both very nice speakers. They are so totally different, without either one being wrong!
You do not want to change speakers and be that guy regretting how much you miss the sound of your old Mirages. Like I say both are good, but you want to take the time to validate your decision to keep or replace the Mirages before you do it! If you spend time in that room when you are not specifically listening, keep the Ultras running at a background level to give your subconscious "burn-in" time with the different dispersion of the Ultras. Often, that which is not familiar, seems, on first brush, wrong out of hand. Spend a couple of weeks with the Ultras then see how the switch back to the Mirages feels!
You do not need a center for evaluation of the speakers, just be sure your AVR knows you do not have a center (run the setup routine) and you will be impressed at how well the mains cover the center (I have found this true with any good speakers)!
FWIW, I love classical music (especially strings) on the Mirages and something like Chicago (the band) is better (IMHO) on the Ultras. I think that is simply a reflection of how strings radiate sound in all directions like the Mirages do while trombones and trumpets are definitely forward facing.
4) Changing the AVR is likely to make the least impact on your overall sound quality, and I would generally say it does not matter what you get as long as enough clean power is there for your specific speakers (neither of the speakers you are considering requires more than a solid AVR). However, it seems that you have very limited options on the placement of your sub(s) which means the ability to compensate for room modes is likely to play a significant role in your sound quality. Accordingly I would suggest you get an AVR with Audyssey XT32 (in other words Marantz or Denon - Denon is better value unless you happen across a great discount on a Marantz, but if you love the look of the Marantz, why not?). Be sure to get the Marantz/Denon Audyssey app for your phone (or tablet) for $20. This will allow you great control over how Audyssey is applied in your room. Many of us have found that running Audyssey below 300Hz is a very good way to tune the bass to your room and integrate the subs for a seamless handoff to the speakers.
And I'll sneak in 5):
5) If you like to sometimes really crank it, you could feasibly push the power limits of your AVR, so buying a 2-channel amp or three monoblocks for the front speakers and letting the AVR handle the surround channels is an option. If you are crossing to subs so that the AVR is not powering the bass of the mains (this usually works best even if your mains have great bass), I would suspect you will never run up against power limits, but down the road, one year of your $1500/yr budget would easily cover this! Monolith amps or Outlaw's monoblocks come to mind off the top of my head!
I have done this, not because I need to, but because I like the idea of my system just coasting along without ever working hard. Also consider that your AVR will continue to fall into obsolescence every ~10 years, but good amps should be good for 20 years or longer!
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Did I mention wrapping 33 ceiling tiles and their tracks in velvet sucks balls. You have to pay attention to every square and make sure the grain of the velvet is consistent on the rectangle pieces.

Regarding budget I would say I have some wiggle room. Improving the basement overall is earning me husband points. That being said I am down here listening to music while I work. I know these subs are to small for the space, but honestly there is some decent base down here. Possibly because the subs are both now on a foundation wall? Would it be worth considering just getting one pb3000 now, then get the Ultra towers and center? Would it be totally out of wack to use the pb 3000 as my main and back it up with my old super cube sealed sub as "back up" just spit balling.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
Wow! That’s a lot of velvet... damn.
I would definitely NOT use the DT sub or the BIC with a PB3000. Not only would overall performance be held back by the lesser sub/s the phase response anomalies could be even more damaging. Starting with a sing PB3k would be just fine, but I’d keep the mattress stash for number two intact.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Did I mention wrapping 33 ceiling tiles and their tracks in velvet sucks balls. You have to pay attention to every square and make sure the grain of the velvet is consistent on the rectangle pieces.

Regarding budget I would say I have some wiggle room. Improving the basement overall is earning me husband points. That being said I am down here listening to music while I work. I know these subs are to small for the space, but honestly there is some decent base down here. Possibly because the subs are both now on a foundation wall? Would it be worth considering just getting one pb3000 now, then get the Ultra towers and center? Would it be totally out of wack to use the pb 3000 as my main and back it up with my old super cube sealed sub as "back up" just spit balling.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
Yeah but... just wait until you hear clean, clear effortless bass. Dual subs offer more headroom, a better fr across a larger area and don't have to work as hard. Working less hard = less distortion. Plus I like the idea that my subs are loafing most of the time and running cool. It's not about more volume, it's about longer life and cleaner bass. Once you hear it, you'll get it. I never heard distortion with my old subs until it went away. Almost instantly I did a facepalm and thought "Oooohhh... THAT'S what they're talking about!".

Dirty, stressed bass has a way of sneaking into the whole frequency band. My experience was overall cleaner sound for the whole system. I wasn't expecting it at all.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I haven't really considered it but I will look into it. Time is money however. Working an extra job or two doing what I know might take less time and pay for a manufactured sub and then some. Covid has everyone spending money on home improvements and business is very good right now.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
I understand that. I get the DIY itch now and again and it has to be scratched. If it isn't your and you are making bank by all means. I'm keeping our handyman flush in cash during Covid.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I understand that. I get the DIY itch now and again and it has to be scratched. If it isn't your and you are making bank by all means. I'm keeping our handyman flush in cash during Covid.
I'm not a DIY sub guy, but do you know of a link to a properly designed sub he might consider?
If it includes proper plans for the cabinet and assembly, I suspect he could quickly assess the effort/time to build it!
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I'm not a DIY sub guy, but do you know of a link to a properly designed sub he might consider?
If it includes proper plans for the cabinet and assembly, I suspect he could quickly assess the effort/time to build it!
TLS has a couple and the Marty’s are always good. But huge...
Sorry Kurt, no links.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I was going to suggest the Marty Cubes as they are a well known with various drivers.
I think they’re one of the best DIYs out there especially being a known quantity.
I wonder if the size might be a deal breaker.
 

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