Help getting better sound

[reaper360]

I have a Yamaha HTR-5920 receiver with 110Wx5 and I'm using the stock speakers, coded NS-AP1500 with 30Hz-20kHz and Input Power(Max/Nominal): 100w / 30W frequency Range and a 100W stock subwoofer. Here's a close example of my setup: yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=200511&CTID=5000800

It just doesn't seem as loud as it should be and I want more out of it. I've thought about just buying a whole new setup, but I don't know how good the receiver and if I should replace it or not. I'm thinking the speakers are the culprit here, so should I just swap the stock speakers for better ones or would it be better to buy a whole new setup? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[TLS Guy]

Speakers the weak link

I bet it's the speakers. They are almost always the weak link. Speakers should be about 50% of your total budget, may be more in multi channel systems. Spend your money wisely and audition speakers. Make sure you can return them within 30 days if they are driving you up the wall. Remember there are far more bad speakers than good ones, so the odds are against you.

 

[Halon451]

Reaper - I too have a Yamaha receiver. One thing I found with pretty much all Yamaha speakers is that they are rated for 6 ohm impedance. Be sure to check your receiver setting (if it is like mine) - will have a 6 ohm, or 8 ohm selection. You will have to enter the advanced settings menu (instructions should be in your manual) to change this, as it is not available in the normal menu tree while the unit is operating.

If the Receiver's default setting is 8 ohms and you're driving 6 ohm speakers it's not definite, but it's possible that you could damage something, so you should get the correct setting on your receiver to accomodate those 6 ohm speakers you have.

Also, you may have to adjust the level and crossover settings to obtain the right sound from your system. It's a fun little nightmare to get into as I am currently in the midst of one myself trying to tweak the sound on my own system. Frustrating as heck, but it's what we love to do.

I would have to agree with TLS guy - most HTIB systems are crap anyway. It's better to invest in some good speakers before you really get into the nitpicking details of your system settings.

Best of luck! Let me know how that Yamaha treats you - I've considered swapping mine in recently, not completely satisfied with the sound quality - even with halfway decent speakers.

 

[Davemcc]

If the Receiver's default setting is 8 ohms and you're driving 6 ohm speakers it's not definite, but it's possible that you could damage something, so you should get the correct setting on your receiver to accomodate those 6 ohm speakers you have.

Don't bother with that switch other than to ensure it is set at 8 ohms. I haven't time to find a technical link, so I will just quote the most competent technical source I can find.

The switch is there so the receiver CLIPS sooner for the UL test at a lower power level, thus generating less heat. IT DOES NOT protect the receiver any better than if its set for 8 ohms. In fact it potentially can damage your speakers since the amp will CLIP more readily. The receiver already has very adequate short circuit and overload protection with either setting.

In your case, feel free to set it for 6 ohms if it makes you feel better.

 

[Halon451]

Hmm. In that case I do stand corrected. Most of what I have learned and read in the past indicated that such a scenario might not likely harm the receiver, but it's not exactly desirable - it can cause the amp to run a little hotter; and that the potential is always there for damage, depending on how much you push your system towards its natural limits.

In any case - Reaper360... I don't mean to lead you astray. I'd still go with TLS Guy's recommendation and get a better set of speakers at the least. If they're 8 ohm, and the RX is set to 8 ohm, then none of the above will matter anyway.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

There is very little difference between receivers of a given power rating these days. It pretty much has to be the speakers.

 

[jcPanny]

Receiver power ratings

There is very little difference between receivers of a given power rating these days. It pretty much has to be the speakers.

Yes, you can compare receivers with similar power ratings, but there is a big difference between a receiver rated for 100 Watts @ 1 kHz 1 channel driven and an amp like the Emotiva LPA1 rated for 125 Watts 20-20KHz all channels driven. A low end receiver like the Yamaha in question will deliver a fraction of the "rated" power under real world conditions.

However, I also conceed that the speakers and the room are the most important audio components.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Reaper - I too have a Yamaha receiver. One thing I found with pretty much all Yamaha speakers is that they are rated for 6 ohm impedance. Be sure to check your receiver setting (if it is like mine) - will have a 6 ohm, or 8 ohm selection. You will have to enter the advanced settings menu (instructions should be in your manual) to change this, as it is not available in the normal menu tree while the unit is operating.
.

Now that I see this, perhaps this is one of your problems you are having wrong selection. Change it to 8 ohms and then try to set up your system as we discussed elsewhere. Let me know the results.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yes, you can compare receivers with similar power ratings, but there is a big difference between a receiver rated for 100 Watts @ 1 kHz 1 channel driven and an amp like the Emotiva LPA1 rated for 125 Watts 20-20KHz all channels driven. A low end receiver like the Yamaha in question will deliver a fraction of the "rated" power under real world conditions.

However, I also conceed that the speakers and the room are the most important audio components.

Maybe a 15 watt loss if that amp is rechecked with the 20-20khz bandwidth. So, for that 85 watts and the 125 watts, would be a difference of about 1.5 dB spl.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have a Yamaha HTR-5920 receiver with 110Wx5 and I'm using the stock speakers, coded NS-AP1500 with 30Hz-20kHz and Input Power(Max/Nominal): 100w / 30W frequency Range and a 100W stock subwoofer. Here's a close example of my setup: yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=200511&CTID=5000800

It just doesn't seem as loud as it should be and I want more out of it. I've thought about just buying a whole new setup, but I don't know how good the receiver and if I should replace it or not. I'm thinking the speakers are the culprit here, so should I just swap the stock speakers for better ones or would it be better to buy a whole new setup? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Which part is not loud enough for you, the sub, the speakers or the whole setup? What level do you listen at?
Is it properly calibrated?

 

[PENG]

I have a Yamaha HTR-5920 receiver with 110Wx5 and I'm using the stock speakers, coded NS-AP1500 with 30Hz-20kHz and Input Power(Max/Nominal): 100w / 30W frequency Range and a 100W stock subwoofer. Here's a close example of my setup: yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=200511&CTID=5000800

It just doesn't seem as loud as it should be and I want more out of it. I've thought about just buying a whole new setup, but I don't know how good the receiver and if I should replace it or not. I'm thinking the speakers are the culprit here, so should I just swap the stock speakers for better ones or would it be better to buy a whole new setup? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Here are the things you can try:

1. Make sure the all 5 speakers are set to "SMALL".
2. Verify that you have not accidentally pushed "MUTE".
3. Check that the speaker output level (See manual P.32) is set to 0 dB and not in the - (minus) range.
4. Verify that all of the speakers especially the L/R/C are connected correctly in terms of phasing. Each speaker's terminals must be connected such that the red terminal on the speaker is connected to the red terminal on the corresponding channel at the receiver end and vice versa for the black terminals.
5. Play with the high cut setting at the subwoofer if there is one. Try setting it to a minimum of 120 Hz and go higher (up to maximum) to see if you can optimize the sound.
6. Turn up the volume at the subwoofer if there is a volume knob.
7. You may also try resetting all parameters of the 5920 to initial factory settings. See P.37.
8. Replace the speakers with non acoustic suspension type that can produce at least 89 dB/W at 1 meter.

If no combinations of the above steps get you louder sound then you may have to accept it as is, or buy a new system altogether.

For clarity, following (if applicable to your system) are things that you cannot do much about:

1. The fact that the 5920 is rated for 80WPC into 6 ohms at 1 KHz so it may only give you 65WPC at 30 Hz to 20,000Hz. I am guessing that with all 3 front channels going you will be lucky to get 3X50W.

2. Small acoustic suspension speakers generally have low sensitivities, e.g. 86 to 87 dB/W at 1 meter.

3. Not 100% sure but it looks like the 5920 does not allow you to adjust the crossover frequency. In that case upgrading to more expensive speakers won't help you in bass unless you set the front speakers to "LARGE" but then your receiver will not have enough power to do them justice.

 

[reaper360]

Thanks for all the help guys. So it seems like the speakers probably are the culprit then. As far as the settings, I'm by no means an expert in tweaking the settings, so I kinda just play around with them and see what sounds better; but I try not to too much since I don't know much about ohms or anything and I don't want to break anything. As far as it not being loud enough, I've just heard a lot of other systems that I know aren't really expensive or superior that are a lot louder. So if messing with the settings doesn't do enough, what speakers do you guys recommend? I'm looking for mid-range speakers, nothing too cheap or too expensive. Again, thanks for the help.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

there is a big difference between a receiver rated for 100 Watts @ 1 kHz 1 channel driven and an amp like the Emotiva LPA1 rated for 125 Watts 20-20KHz all channels driven.

True, but I never see suspicious ratings like that given by reputable manufacturers (including Yamaha.) I only see that sort of thing on no-name products like Insignia.

 

[TLS Guy]

Power and increase in sound pressure is a log scale!

If you buy an receiver that is 125 watts all channels driven, you deserve to purchase exactly that, 125 watts total power when all channels are fully driven! If you want 125 watts per channel from a five channel amp it needs to say 125 watts per channel with all channels driven at 125 watts.

The bigger point though, is that if you have an amp of 100 watts, to double the perceived loudness, (double the sound pressure in the room), then you need a 100 watt amp! If you buy a 200 watt amp you have increased the loudness by only 3db which is tiny. If you go from 100 watts to 125 watts you have increased the loudness by about 0.75db, which is not even perceptible!

Don't forget speaker sensitivity either! If you change speakers from a set with a sensitivity of 87 db 1 watt 1 meter for a set with 90 db 1 watt one meter, that is the same a buying an amp with twice the power.

Check this site and especially take in what the graph means.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.html

I made the point before that the sonic signature of the speakers in a given room is totally dominant of the actual signature and performance of the system. There are a few good speaker systems, generally in the price bracket of $15,000 to $20,000 per pair and up, that are very neutral and don't stomp their signature all over the system. You might be able to detect differences in other parts of the reproducing chain with speakers of the kind of accuracy I'm talking about. Bottom line, it you want improved sound, put your money into speakers and choose them very carefully.

 

[reaper360]

Ok, well my friend is moving and asked if I wanted to buy his speakers, they're JBL's: jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=SAT2&CheckProduct=Y They're rated for 8 ohms, but my receiver is set to 6. I've looked through the manual but can't figure out how to change the ohm settings. Will it damage anything if I run the receiver at 6 ohms while the speakers are at 8? Thanks.

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok

It will not damage anything.

 

[reaper360]

Ok, good, so running the receiver at 6 ohms to speakers that are rated 8 ohms won't damage anything? That's good, thanks for the help.

 

[PENG]

Ok, good, so running the receiver at 6 ohms to speakers that are rated 8 ohms won't damage anything? That's good, thanks for the help.

reaper360, I read through the manual of the 5920 and I could not find anything about "impedance setting". I really doubt it has the option to select between 6 or 8 ohms. Typically, selecting the 6 ohm position would result in lower output voltage, nothing more. Lower output voltage would result in lower output power, not always a good thing. If you don't want the speakers to be damaged, make sure you back off the volume as soon as the sound becomes harsh, or even distorted.

 

[reaper360]

Ok, I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the warning.

 

[TLS Guy]

I disagree completely with PENG

Loudspeaker impedance is always approximate. A loudspeaker is not a resistive load, it is an inductive load. Every speaker has an impedance curve. They are all over the map. Some speakers at certain frequencies drop below 2 ohms and rise into the thousands at other frequencies. As the load impedance drops it calls for more current from the amp. Far Eastern amps have a tendency to be current limited and perform poorly into low impedance loads. So the fact that your receiver says it is happy with 6 ohm loads, and the average impedance of your speakers is 8 ohms is just fine. This theoretical mismatch is totally inconsequential, so relax. You need no warnings, you are not going to cause any harm.

As an aside in tube amps, there is an output transformer that is tapped and you can match the amp to the load. That is because a tube is in essence a voltage amplifier. A power transistor on the other hand is essentially a current amplifier. So the impedance rating of a transistor amp is an index of its ability to deliver current. What Yamaha are essentially telling you about your receiver is that it is going to be current limited when supplying loads below 6 ohms. More costly hi end amps can deliver lots of current into loads as low as two ohms without complaint.

While I'm on the topic of loudspeaker impedance, some loudspeakers have impedance compensation in their crossovers. I will compensate my crossover designs to make the load they present to the amplifier look as resistive as possible. I do this when feasible, sometimes the impedance compensation will create more problems than it solves. So you can't be slavish about loudspeaker impedance compensation. However there are studies which trend to show listener preference with impedance compensation. This however is not something to be dogmatic about. Most speakers do not have impedance compensation in their crossovers. It certainly adds to part count and cost.