First Impressions of the Ascend Sierra Towers/Horizon with RAAL Ribbons

[FirstReflection]

I think the potential cause for your current Audyssey woes might have to do with what's known as "reference volume" and something I've run across before, which is the volume dial setting having an effect on the loudness of the test tones, even though it's not supposed to.

One of the most often misunderstood things with any A/V receiver is that when the volume level reads "0 (zero) dB" on the front display, that is supposed to be "reference volume". Reference volume is quite loud. It is when you have an average of 85dB as your Sound Pressure Level (SPL) for normal content, with peaks as loud as 105dB in the speakers and peaks as loud as 115dB in the LFE bass. This is commercial movie theater loudness levels. And it just so happens that human hearing is at its most linear at 85dB. In other words, play any audible frequency at 85dB, and subjectively, they'll all sound about equally as loud. At lower dB levels, we hear midrange frequencies considerably better than bass or really high frequencies. So at something like 65dB, we might say that a 1kHz tone sounds subjectively much louder than a 30Hz tone or a 15kHz tone, even though, if we measure them, they are all at 65dB! They're all equally loud, but we don't perceive it that way. At 85dB though, we perceive all frequencies as being pretty much equally loud.

So, when you use Audyssey MultEQ auto setup, what it is supposed to do is output a standardized test tone, measure it, and make it so that if you set your volume dial on the receiver to "0dB", you'll get "reference volume". Any setting of the volume below that, like "-15dB" or "-30dB" or what have you, is then supposed to be that many decibels below "reference volume", hence the negative numbers.

What I've experienced though is that sometimes, the volume dial setting that you have -before you run Audyssey - has an impact on the loudness of the test tones! It isn't supposed to. But I've definitely heard it. So the easiest thing to do is to set your volume to "0dB" just prior to running Audyssey. Then run Audyssey, and see what you get! If it works, you should get trim levels that are below the default center trim position, since the Sierra speakers are fairly efficient and you should be hitting "reference volume" with no trouble and not really that much power from the Denon's amps.

So give that a try: set the volume to "0dB" prior to running Audyssey. The other the other thing you can try is to just reset the Denon completely. There should be an option in the Denon's menu to just reset all settings back to factory defaults. Running Audyssey from the factory defaults should always work properly. Running Audyssey on top of a previous Audyssey run can sometimes screw things up too, I've found.

The Dynamic EQ is, again, to do with "reference volume". Remember that your volume dial reading shows how many dB BELOW reference level you are listening at. And also remember that we don't hear bass nearly as well as the midrange frequencies if it is quieter than 85dB. So what Dynamic EQ does is it amplifies the bass if you are listening below reference volume so that subjectively, the bass sounds as loud as it should! Dynamic EQ will also boost any sounds that would now be too quiet to hear clearly at your below reference level loudness. So that's why the bass and surrounds seem so much louder with Dynamic EQ turned on!

 

[Rob from NJ]

I think the potential cause for your current Audyssey woes might have to do with what's known as "reference volume" and something I've run across before, which is the volume dial setting having an effect on the loudness of the test tones, even though it's not supposed to.

One of the most often misunderstood things with any A/V receiver is that when the volume level reads "0 (zero) dB" on the front display, that is supposed to be "reference volume". Reference volume is quite loud. It is when you have an average of 85dB as your Sound Pressure Level (SPL) for normal content, with peaks as loud as 105dB in the speakers and peaks as loud as 115dB in the LFE bass. This is commercial movie theater loudness levels. And it just so happens that human hearing is at its most linear at 85dB. In other words, play any audible frequency at 85dB, and subjectively, they'll all sound about equally as loud. At lower dB levels, we hear midrange frequencies considerably better than bass or really high frequencies. So at something like 65dB, we might say that a 1kHz tone sounds subjectively much louder than a 30Hz tone or a 15kHz tone, even though, if we measure them, they are all at 65dB! They're all equally loud, but we don't perceive it that way. At 85dB though, we perceive all frequencies as being pretty much equally loud.

So, when you use Audyssey MultEQ auto setup, what it is supposed to do is output a standardized test tone, measure it, and make it so that if you set your volume dial on the receiver to "0dB", you'll get "reference volume". Any setting of the volume below that, like "-15dB" or "-30dB" or what have you, is then supposed to be that many decibels below "reference volume", hence the negative numbers.

What I've experienced though is that sometimes, the volume dial setting that you have -before you run Audyssey - has an impact on the loudness of the test tones! It isn't supposed to. But I've definitely heard it. So the easiest thing to do is to set your volume to "0dB" just prior to running Audyssey. Then run Audyssey, and see what you get! If it works, you should get trim levels that are below the default center trim position, since the Sierra speakers are fairly efficient and you should be hitting "reference volume" with no trouble and not really that much power from the Denon's amps.

So give that a try: set the volume to "0dB" prior to running Audyssey. The other the other thing you can try is to just reset the Denon completely. There should be an option in the Denon's menu to just reset all settings back to factory defaults. Running Audyssey from the factory defaults should always work properly. Running Audyssey on top of a previous Audyssey run can sometimes screw things up too, I've found.

The Dynamic EQ is, again, to do with "reference volume". Remember that your volume dial reading shows how many dB BELOW reference level you are listening at. And also remember that we don't hear bass nearly as well as the midrange frequencies if it is quieter than 85dB. So what Dynamic EQ does is it amplifies the bass if you are listening below reference volume so that subjectively, the bass sounds as loud as it should! Dynamic EQ will also boost any sounds that would now be too quiet to hear clearly at your below reference level loudness. So that's why the bass and surrounds seem so much louder with Dynamic EQ turned on!

Great Information! I was thinking of the master volume before running Audyssey and set it on what I would normally listen to, approximately -25 db. I'll run Audyssey this morning and set the master volume to 0 db. Don't want to default the Denon yet as I have other settings such as input sources that I would probably forget when resetting. I'll try 0 db master volume first and see how it goes.

 

[Rob from NJ]

I disliked the Q900's high end. The treble was too high pitched for me. Since I only listened to the Q900 twice it was hard to determine whether it was the room environments, the recordings or the speaker itself. To my ears, the Sierra towers have a completely different presentation at the high end.

Yes, this is my novice, personal and humble opinion.

 

[Rob from NJ]

Re-ran Audyssey this weekend using FirstReflection's suggestion to set the Denon master volume at 0db. It worked! Much better and more logical results, and no polarity error message (also performed THX Optimizer Phase test to ensure my Sierra towers are connected correctly). Thank you, FirstReflection.

Also, started hanging the sound panels and completed the front wall and back wall. However, ran out of clips for the side wall panels and will need to contact Acoustimac for the right amount of clips. This means I've not yet hung the sound panel covering the first reflection point. I'm making progress.

Watched War Horse today. The WW1 trenches war scene was incredible. The SVS sub went crazy on me. I'm officially loving the sub, however, need to scale back a little (I was running it around 3db hot) as my daughter felt the steps shaking on the front porch. The CBM 170 surrounds also got a good workout with bullets flying from all directions. A ton of side-to-side and back-to-front-to-back sound going on. Highly recommend the movie more for the audio and visual presentation. The story was just ok.

 

[Gov]

Re-ran Audyssey this weekend using FirstReflection's suggestion to set the Denon master volume at 0db. It worked! Much better and more logical results, and no polarity error message (also performed THX Optimizer Phase test to ensure my Sierra towers are connected correctly). Thank you, FirstReflection.

I don't understand this logic, when you go into Audyssey calibration mode everything I read says that it overrides ALL receiver settings and levels. So, turning the MV to 0dB before entering the calibration mode should make absolutely no difference

 

[Rob from NJ]

I don't understand this logic, when you go into Audyssey calibration mode everything I read says that it overrides ALL receiver settings and levels. So, turning the MV to 0dB before entering the calibration mode should make absolutely no difference

Gov, I'm puzzled as well. When I ran Audyssey earlier in the week, I didn't think about the master volume, thus, it was set at my prior listening setting (I believe -20db). The results I got were crazy. In addition to a Phase error message, all my trim levels approached maximum (+10db to +11.5db) and when I played the internal test tones with these trim levels, it was uncomfortable for me. Beside the fact that the Sierras are somewhat efficient, relatively speaking.
Over the weekend I initially set the master volume to 0db (per FirstReflection) and the results were exactly where I thought I would end up. All speakers trim levels were slightly under 0db except the Horizon was exactly at 0db. The surrounds trim levels are lower db than the fronts.
Interestingly, I tried the same master volume setting of 0db to the internal test tones and the different master volume settings did not make a difference. This puzzles me even more.

 

[FirstReflection]

I don't understand this logic, when you go into Audyssey calibration mode everything I read says that it overrides ALL receiver settings and levels. So, turning the MV to 0dB before entering the calibration mode should make absolutely no difference

Yeah, it isn't logic, just bitter experience

You're absolutely right, Gov, that Audyssey is SUPPOSED to override all of the settings and just do its thing when you run the Auto Setup. I've simply found through experience that it doesn't always work that way! I don't know why. I just know that I've had it happen, and it seems as though it happened to Rob as well.

Honestly, I don't know what exactly is going on when this glitch happens. I've found that doing a full "Factory Reset" always makes Audyssey work as well. But when performing the Auto Setup after having performed the Auto Setup previously - and thus "overwriting" the previous Auto Setup settings - there sometimes seems to be this glitch.

Also, if you've gone into the "Manual Setup" menu and made any changes after having run the Audyssey Auto Setup, many of the options in the "Audio Adjust" menu become unavailable! And that seems to screw things up if you run Auto Setup a second time as well!

So this is one of the major pains of working with Audyssey. But it isn't just Audyssey. I actually first ran across this odd "needing to set the volume dial to 0dB prior to running Auto Setup" glitch on a Yamaha receiver using their YPAO programme!

Bottom line, this is not the way it is SUPPOSED to work. And I rarely see anyone talk about it. But I've definitely had it happen, Rob's results parallel my own. I can't tell you why it is this way. But I figured I'd just share my experience and let Rob give it a try. Couldn't hurt.

 

[FirstReflection]

Interestingly, I tried the same master volume setting of 0db to the internal test tones and the different master volume settings did not make a difference. This puzzles me even more.

Heh - yeah, this is actually the way it is SUPPOSED to be. So honestly, I've no idea why Audyssey screws up sometimes when the internal test tones output the same, standardized volume no matter what. But they are two, separate programs - Audyssey doesn't use the internal "pink noise", so it must just be something within Audyssey itself that's different.

The tricky part is in knowing whether the internal test tones are calibrated to output a full 85dB reference volume level or the very common -10dB below reference 75dB volume. Most manuals just tell you to "make sure all the speakers are equally loud", but they don't always say what your SPL meter ought to read!

In any case, all that really matters in the end is that the darn thing works and that everything sounds the way it is supposed to! Truly, Rob has been a champ, IMO. Most people would have thrown their hands up in the air and declared the entire process "broken" - lol. But Rob has been very patient, which absolutely deserves to be rewarded in my view.

Happily, bit-by-bit, we definitely seem to be getting there!

 

[Rob from NJ]

One of the biggest surprises over the past few weeks with the Sierra towers is the difference of sound quality to my ears between sound tracks.

For example, I listened to 2 Bruce Springsteen CDs and a Garth Brooks CD. Raised in Jersey, home of the Soon to be Stanley Cup Champion for a fourth time, NJ Devils, I love Springsteen. Songs from Springsteen's Magic CD sounded like garbage. I would best describe it as noise from a poorly constructed tin can. Songs from Springsteen's Greatest Hits, not much better. I thought my Sierra Towers were broken. Then I popped in an old Garth Brooks CD, listening too all in Stereo Mode. Garth's voice and all instruments sounded beautiful. The Sierra towers conducted an awesome presentation.

Is it simply how the sources are recorded? Is it the type of music? Is it a matter of media quality? I listened to 2 Cincinnati Pops Orchestra sound tracks, one an older CD and the other an SACD with broadway tunes. My ears could not tell the difference and both sounded really good. Ultimately the question is how do you know a recording will sound good on the Sierra towers? Is it word of mouth on which soundtracks provide well engineered recordings and/or a certain format used for music? Any guidance is appreciated as my Springsteen CDs are unlistenable.

 

[PENG]

Is it simply how the sources are recorded? Is it the type of music? Is it a matter of media quality? I listened to 2 Cincinnati Pops Orchestra sound tracks, one an older CD and the other an SACD with broadway tunes. My ears could not tell the difference and both sounded really good. Ultimately the question is how do you know a recording will sound good on the Sierra towers? Is it word of mouth on which soundtracks provide well engineered recordings and/or a certain format used for music? Any guidance is appreciated as my Springsteen CDs are unlistenable.

I think with your new speakers, like many of us, you have reached the point where the quality of the media will make the most noticeable difference in sound quality. That is, from now on you can benefit much more by going with high quality recordings. This is one of the reasons why I started a thread in attempt to collect about 100 or so titles that I can choose from whenever I feel like acquiring new albums. You can switch electronics all you want but you will likely gain more by simply going with the best recordings available on the market. I have CDs that sound better than some of my SACDs and BRs.

 

[Rob from NJ]

I think with your new speakers, like many of us, you have reached the point where the quality of the media will make the most noticeable difference in sound quality. That is, from now on you can benefit much more by going with high quality recordings. This is one of the reasons why I started a thread in attempt to collect about 100 or so titles that I can choose from whenever I feel like acquiring new albums. You can switch electronics all you want but you will likely gain more by simply going with the best recordings available on the market. I have CDs that sound better than some of my SACDs and BRs.

Peng, Thanks. Where can I find the thread you started? This will certainly be very useful so I don't have to waste money on poor recordings, especially if it's on SACDs.

 

[PENG]

Peng, Thanks. Where can I find the thread you started? This will certainly be very useful so I don't have to waste money on poor recordings, especially
if it's on SACDs.

It's under general av discussion

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/78328-high-quality-sound-albums-11.html

See post#108.

 

[rsmt2000]

Hi First Reflection

I bought Ascend sierra towers with RAAL basing on your recommendation to RobfromNJ . Anyway I have a question regarding audessey. I changed my master volume to 0 db and ran audessey. I calibrated the sub woofer by dialing the volume knob on the sub so that audessey comes back with a +/- 1db to 0db. But my question is with the front three speakers. Audessey came back with -8.0, -7.5 and -8.5 for my LCR respectively. Is this OK?

I once had orb audio speakers and was told not to have any speaker +/- 4db.

Also is anyone aware of reasonably priced audio calibration service with REW or what not. I think this stuff is definitely over my head now

 

[ousooner2]

Master volume on the AVR doesn't matter. It will spit out a 75db tone

I'm thinking Audyssey came back with your fronts -X.XX because your sub is too loud or too quiet.

 

[PENG]

Hi First Reflection

I bought Ascend sierra towers with RAAL basing on your recommendation to RobfromNJ . Anyway I have a question regarding audessey. I changed my master volume to 0 db and ran audessey. I calibrated the sub woofer by dialing the volume knob on the sub so that audessey comes back with a +/- 1db to 0db. But my question is with the front three speakers. Audessey came back with -8.0, -7.5 and -8.5 for my LCR respectively. Is this OK?

I once had orb audio speakers and was told not to have any speaker +/- 4db.

Also is anyone aware of reasonably priced audio calibration service with REW or what not. I think this stuff is definitely over my head now

That's fine but I generally prefer to have the sub volume dial set lower so that Audyssey would return a setting of around -2 to -3 to minimize distortion but that's really just theoretical. You can certainly do that if the -8 for LCR bothers you. By dialing down the sub by say 4, the LCR would be around -3.5 in your case, splitting the difference with the sub and all will look good to you with no difference in sound quality.

 

[rsmt2000]

That's fine but I generally prefer to have the sub volume dial set lower so that Audyssey would return a setting of around -2 to -3 to minimize distortion but that's really just theoretical. You can certainly do that if the -8 for LCR bothers you. By dialing down the sub by say 4, the LCR would be around -3.5 in your case, splitting the difference with the sub and all will look good to you with no difference in sound quality.

Hmm. As I said in the previous post, I worked with the volume knob on the sub everytime I ran audessey so that audessey comes back with -1 db or closer to 0db as much possible. with my sub volume at around 9' O clock position, I got audessey to come back with -1 db for the sub channel out put. It is the Front LCRs that came back with -8, -7 etc... I can follow your advise and turn the sub volume even less but I am afraid audessey will then come back with +6 or +8db for the sub channel but better numbers for the LCR. But let me try doing that first and report back

 

[Calvin Hobbes]

Hmm. As I said in the previous post, I worked with the volume knob on the sub everytime I ran audessey so that audessey comes back with -1 db or closer to 0db as much possible. with my sub volume at around 9' O clock position, I got audessey to come back with -1 db for the sub channel out put. It is the Front LCRs that came back with -8, -7 etc... I can follow your advise and turn the sub volume even less but I am afraid audessey will then come back with +6 or +8db for the sub channel but better numbers for the LCR. But let me try doing that first and report back

You may have a problem with the subwoofer location. Your seating position may be in a null.

 

[Rob from NJ]

Hi First Reflection

I bought Ascend sierra towers with RAAL basing on your recommendation to RobfromNJ . Anyway I have a question regarding audessey. I changed my master volume to 0 db and ran audessey. I calibrated the sub woofer by dialing the volume knob on the sub so that audessey comes back with a +/- 1db to 0db. But my question is with the front three speakers. Audessey came back with -8.0, -7.5 and -8.5 for my LCR respectively. Is this OK?

I once had orb audio speakers and was told not to have any speaker +/- 4db.

Also is anyone aware of reasonably priced audio calibration service with REW or what not. I think this stuff is definitely over my head now

rsmt2000,
When I first purchased the Sierras and ran audyssey, I was experiencing the opposite problem. Audyssey was setting my trim levels in the +9db to +11db range. Finally figured out that my projector was making background noise and the mic was picking this up, thus, causing excessive levels. I continue to run Audyssey everytime I make a change to my media room. Is your listening position close to the speakers, thus, channel levels lower than what you would expect, which is ok?

How do you like the Sierra towers? Did you also go with the Raal for the Horiozn? Are you using Ascend surrounds? Please give us your impressions of your speakers.

Its been approximately 10 months since I purchased the Ascend Sierras and I'm very happy. However, I continue to read the forums and sometimes think back to my search, wondering what if I had gone with the Martin Logan Theos which I came close to pulling the trigger on. How would the Theos sound in my media room. That's what happens when you continue to read the forums after making a decision. I'm the type that will listen to my speakers for 10 years and refresh after i feel like I got my monies worth.

I'm thinking of upgrading my system from a 5.1 to a 7.1 system (maybe even a 7.2). Possibly later this year, I'll invest in the Sierra bookshelves for surrounds and finally have a great multi-channel music system.

 

[PENG]

Hmm. As I said in the previous post, I worked with the volume knob on the sub everytime I ran audessey so that audessey comes back with -1 db or closer to 0db as much possible. with my sub volume at around 9' O clock position, I got audessey to come back with -1 db for the sub channel out put. It is the Front LCRs that came back with -8, -7 etc... I can follow your advise and turn the sub volume even less but I am afra
id audessey will then come back with +6 or +8db for the sub channel but better numbers for the LCR. But let me try doing that first and report back

You are right, I misread your post. I suggest you run Audyssey again but follow their instructions to the letter, and yes, make sure there are no background noise when Running Audyssey.

 

[PENG]

You are right, I misread your post. I suggest you run Audyssey again but follow their instructions to the letter, and yes, make sure there are no background noise when Running Audyssey.

After reading your original post again, I think it may be possible that you are sitting much closer to the sub than to the L,C,R or the sub is in a location that helps increase its output SPL. However, what I said in my first post may still be worth trying. I might have worded it in a way that could be misleading, what I meant by dialing the sub volume down was, to let Audyssey dial the trim level down by about 4 so it may read -4 when you are done running Audyssey. For that to happen, you need to increase the sub's volume setting. So if it is at 9:00 as you said, then try increasing it to 10:30 (or 11:00 if that is not enough). Then re-run Audyssey, but make sure you follow instructions to the letter, such as do it for the maximum number of positions, 8 for the XT version, place the mic on a tripod and point it straight up, not at an angle, mimize background noise etc. When it finishes, you may actually be nicely surprised to find that Audyssey has left the sub trim level at around 0 and in that case the LCR will also be closer to 0 to match the increased volume of the sub. Or it may in fact lowers the sub trim, while leaving the L,C,R at around where they are now. In that case, you can simply manually increase L,C,R, surrounds, and sub trim by 4 so L,C,R will read -4 and the sub will read 0. So either way, you get your wish of having the sub at around 0, while the other channels are closer to 0 as well.

As long as you manually increase each and every (including the surrounds) channel by the same amount, the overall result will be the same provided the final trim levels are no where near the limits. All you are changing will be for your own visual satifaction only, and in that sense we all have our own preference, though it is generally a good idea to have the sub trim level within +/- 3 to 4 dB. As I stated before, I prefer "-".

If none of the abve work well enough for you, then you may have to try moving the sub around if you have the flexibility, some times it does not take much to change the output a few dB. I think the manual adjustment is the way to do it, but hopefully Audyssey somehow go the way you prefer, that is, leave the sub where it is and increase the other channels instead so they go closer to 0.