Firewire connection (on e.g. Denon AVRs)

[Yup]

Hello,

I have a simple question: More and more receivers "boast" having firewire connectivity (I'm eyeing Denon's comming 4806 a.t.m). What I don't get is what <i>kind</i> of firewire is that i.e. what kind of input signal (format, bitrate, typical source, etc) it accepts on that serial interface (again, Firewire / IEEE 1394 / i.link /whatever is just spec for a serial comm protocol)

Does the interface accept e.g. DV input, from a camcorder for example ? (the "audio" subscript that can be seen under the 1394 connections on the back of 5805 and 4806 do not seem encouraging in that respect)

How about cross-product compatibility, standardization, etc ?

I am aware that this question poped up before in the forums, but I couldn't find any relevant answers

Thanks for any info/pointers.

Yup,

(having a familiar fuzzy feeling that this whole "our product has firewire connectivity" is more a marketing gimmick)

 

[JVC]

The firewire connection is for dvd-a, with a Denon dvd player (with firewire connection output). One of the FEW setups with a digital connection for dvd-a, instead of the usual 6 analog outputs and inputs. I read recently that Denon got an ok to send sacd signal over firewire also..............
I think the digital connection ONLY works with another Denon. Can't swear to it though. It started out that way, but may have changed.
Good luck!

 

[Yup]

First, thanks for the reply.

It kinda makes some sense, since there is suspciously little info on that port in terms of supported formats / standards, devices, etc.

However, since it's propietary, why didn't they stick with "Denon Link" ? AFAIK that one can already carry both DVD-A and SACD (pls correct me if I'm wrong), it is already included....Why <i>additionaly</i> introduce a "pseudo standard" thingie like Firewire ports, misleading ppl into false familiarity and get them thinking (actually here's hoping) for cross-compatibility...

To be very honest, this all started from an even more basic question: Since the AVRs already include "decent" D/A convertors, is there a <b>digital</b> input interface (and if yes, which) that is future proof (i.e. can carry 5.1/DVD-A/SACD/whatever), is cross-product compatible and/or standard and (most important) does not do any uber-idiotic digital->analog->digital->analog butchering ?

Since Firewire seems hopeless in that regard, as it stands the only hope is for those HDMI 1.1 ports, and they can do only DVD-A (as far as I can gather..)

God, how marketing sucks.

 

[keenan]

However, since it's propietary, why didn't they stick with "Denon Link" ? AFAIK that one can already carry both DVD-A and SACD (pls correct me if I'm wrong),

Denon Link does not carry SACD. The IEEE1394(firewire) interface is the only digital interface that will carry all modes of digital audio currently available. IEEE1394 is an industry standard, whereas Denon Link is proprietary.

does not do any uber-idiotic digital->analog->digital->analog butchering ?
Since Firewire seems hopeless in that regard,

IEEE1394 does not do all those conversions, it takes the digital signal from the source to the proc/recvr where the digital to analog conversion is performed.

God, how marketing sucks.

Yes, depending on who's doing the marketing..

 

[Yup]

First, let me say it clear: I'm not affiliated w/ any vendor in any way and have no particular interest in any technology. I just loath proprietary/closed (i.e. non interoperable) solutions. As I side note, I'm using Firewire extensively, but for other purposes. That clears the "marketing" part.

The IEEE1394(firewire) interface is the only digital interface that will carry all modes of digital audio currently available. IEEE1394 is an industry standard, whereas Denon Link is proprietary.

So, if it's standard, I can take the digital output of my e.g. (ideal/future) HTPC sound card firewire port, fed it into the AVR and it will "just work" ?

In my original post I asked "what standard ?" and pointed that IEEE 1394 is just protocol for serial communication (a shared bus acctually) and in no way specifies the kind of data carried. So, could you please detail what "standard" are you refering to (except for the serial transport protocol itself, which is irrelevant for this discussion) ? That's exactly why I said "it could be very well Denon Link and be proprietary all the way instead of half-way..."

Denon Link does not carry SACD [...] IEEE1394 does not do all those conversions, it takes the digital signal from the source to the proc/recvr where the digital to analog conversion is performed.

So, in short: Denon Link doesn't carry SACD but Firewire does. But we're still stuck on Denon solutions since no word of cross-vendor interop, type/format/standardization on the bitstream format, etc. Well, better than nothing I guess...

Yes, depending on who's doing the marketing..

Not really...

 

[MDS]

So, if it's standard, I can take the digital output of my e.g. (ideal/future) HTPC sound card firewire port, fed it into the AVR and it will "just work" ?

In my original post I asked "what standard ?" and pointed that IEEE 1394 is just protocol for serial communication (a shared bus acctually) and in no way specifies the kind of data carried. So, could you please detail what "standard" are you refering to (except for the serial transport protocol itself, which is irrelevant for this discussion) ? That's exactly why I said "it could be very well Denon Link and be proprietary all the way instead of half-way..."

You've answered your own question. Firewire is a standard - the details of the protocol and the hardware interface are known to all. As you say, the protocol does not specify the type of data to carry, but it does specify the packet format and any type of data can be carried in those packets (in the same way that IP can carry any data).

Whether you can plug i your soundcard and it will 'just work' is dependent on whether or not the receiver can recognize the type of data it is being sent and know how to decode it.

 

[NetGeek]

Ieee 1394

Firewire is a "standard" just like USB. In fact, USB is it's rival technology. The standard defines the technology, the communication protocol between two IEEE 1394 devices, the connectors used, the speed, error correction, etc. IEEE is the "Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers", a international body that sets standards & communications protocols. Ethernet protocols used in computer Networks are also a "I triple E" standard; IEE 802.2 and 802.3.

 

[keenan]

So, if it's standard, I can take the digital output of my e.g. (ideal/future) HTPC sound card firewire port, fed it into the AVR and it will "just work" ?

This was answered by Anonymous.

In my original post I asked "what standard ?" and pointed that IEEE 1394 is just protocol for serial communication (a shared bus acctually) and in no way specifies the kind of data carried. So, could you please detail what "standard" are you refering to (except for the serial transport protocol itself, which is irrelevant for this discussion) ?

IEEE1394 will transport Dolby Digital, DTS, DVD-A, SACD and Redbook audio among others along with video streams, depends on the application. As you say, it's a transport protocol, and currently those audio formats mentioned above can all be sent over a IEEE1394 connection.

That's exactly why I said "it could be very well Denon Link and be proprietary all the way instead of half-way..."

I don't understand this statement...

So, in short: Denon Link doesn't carry SACD but Firewire does. But we're still stuck on Denon solutions since no word of cross-vendor interop, type/format/standardization on the bitstream format, etc. Well, better than nothing I guess...

Why do you say we are stuck on Denon solutions? I don't understand what you mean..

 

[Yup]

*sigh*... this starts sounding like beating a dead horse.

In short: There are _two_ different things.

1) The method for data communication per se btw. two devices. That can be "Denon Link" (proprietary), Firewire, HDMI, S/P DIF (toslink or coaxial), carrier pigeons, whatever.

2) The FORMAT of the data stream sent over a communication medium. It can be "Red Book" (16 bit @ 44 kHz), AC-3 (for Dolby Digital), MLP (for DVD-A), or DSD (for SACD), proprietary data format, or encrypted versions of any of those.

See it as a sort of "cars vs. tires" difference.

Standardizing only the communication media (i.e. point 1) to e.g. Firewire does not mean that data communication can take place btw two devices. It only means I have a data connection btw. the units.

For them to start passing data the FORMAT of the bitstream must be standard i.e. point 2 must be _also_ standard. If I buy a "player" (e.g. DVD-A player) with a Firewire port and a "receiver" from different vendors and connect them via Firewire they will not communicate unlesss the FORMAT of the bitstream is standardized e.g. like in point 2 above.

So, you need __both__ aspects above standardized to pass data btw. units from different vendors i.e. in a "standardized" way.

(Side note: That is exactly what made S/P DIF a success: It standards __both__ the electrical interface and the format of the data stream and it thus allows you to plug your Sony DVD player to your Yamaha receiver. It "just works").

My question was: "Firewire covers point 1 i.e. standardizes the method for data communication. Fine, we agree on that. But what is the format of the bitstream i.e. point 2 ? Is it standard or is it proprietary? 'Cause if it is, there's no chance in hell it will work". Got the difference now ?

And that's exactly why I said "they could have stuck with Denon Link". I.e. if you don't cover ALSO point 2, standardizing on point 1 is moot, so you could be "non-standard" all the way.

Anyway. Thanks for the effort. In the mean time I found my answer (sort of) somewhere else (for the intrested: http://www.ambisonic.net/dvd1394.html).

 

[BMXTRIX]

Yup: I understood exactly what you meant. Very similar to the Mitsubishi TV's that have firewire input... which ONLY accepts firewire from the D-VHS player. It doesn't even allow you to hook your camcorder up and display DV.

When I have gone to trade shows, it has pissed me off to no end how little anyone seems to know about the higher-end features on their own products. I find reviews to be very shortcoming on products with things like firewire, usb, rs-232, denon link, etc. If you have a product in for SERIOUS review, then every single thing about that product that makes it unique should be tested and reviewed.

I use serial ports every day since I program Crestron systems. Did you know that the consumer Sharp LCD panels (Aquos) can be turned off by RS-232... but they can not be turned back ON? It would have been nice to know that instead of a one line blurb: "This LCD has a serial port for external control" which is so standard.

Yes, the receiver has Firewire... But, what data streams can it decode over firewire and will those internal CODECs be upgradable to allow for future firewire formats? What other features does it have? Can it pass control signals? Bidirectional data?

Meh - good luck on a serious answer - I've never found one.

 

[Yup]

Yup: I understood exactly what you meant [...]
Meh - good luck on a serious answer - I've never found one.

Finally a delightfully clueful answer . Thanks a lot for the input (even if disappointing).

As you can also read btw the lines above, I'm very computer centric myself ("anal" about "specs" comes w/o saying).

However, after a bit of thinking (for a change ...) I came up to the realization that the sorry state of things pretty much makes sense. Not that it is acceptable, just (pitifully) understandable. IMHO it all boils down to this:

While in the "computer world" "we" are used to demand specs, standard compliance, internal components, chipsets, schematics -- the works -- it doesn't seem to happen that much in the "electronic consumer world" for a very simple reason: we are talking "consumers" i.e. "folks" that are extremly confused by "well, my panasonic camcorder has firewire, my canon camcorder has firewire, why doesn't it `just work` between them ?"

Case in point:

When buying a PCI Firewire interface card for the 'puter, "we" are used to check things like chipset, OHCI compliance, buffers, etc, etc. If you want to go over the top you can even ask for a __schematic__ for the internals (if you have who, and a chance/hope you will get it)

OTOH can you say the same about an A/V receiver ? Can you please tell me e.g. which exact Silicon Image PanelLink chipset is used for the HDMI interface on the Denon 4806 ? Or the chipset for the Firewire port ? Or (*gasp* !!) the schematics for this ports ? Or the data processing stages for these ports, with up/downsampling from/to which format, etc, etc ?

Well, you got the point. While the above "we" vs "consumers" is grossly exagerated (I hope it doesn't sound too "smartass") I can understand (but not accept) the sorry state of things in the "consumer electronics world". Especially for the mid/high end devices. However, since more an more products start coming with "advanced" digital feats, I think it's inevitable that this kind of questions will start showing up more and more.

In the mean time we have to settle for things like "marantz receivers sound a bit more mellow than their yamaha counterparts..."

'Nuff tongue-in-cheek. Thanks for the answer. Needless to say, if you/anybody get any more related infos, I would highly appreciate.

 

[keenan]

Very similar to the Mitsubishi TV's that have firewire input... which ONLY accepts firewire from the D-VHS player. It doesn't even allow you to hook your camcorder up and display DV.

The Mits TV implementation will accept a video signal from any Motorola cable box equipped with a IEEE1394 output. It can use the signal or even pass it on to another device. That's the beuty of IEEE1394, you can daisy-chain devices together, that's why you'll always see two of the ports in tandem.

It's a transport protocol, doesn't matter what you send over it as long as the sending unit and receiving unit know what to do with the data. Any audio/video home theater component that is equipped with IEEE1394 will "talk" to each other, if it doesn't then the manufacturer screwed up when they implemented it. Denon upgraded their DVD players to fix such a problem awhile back.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Good to know the Motorola boxes are now supported - they were not when I received the information. I guess what they said was that it accepts MPEG2 20mb/s video over firewire. The Motorola must fit that bill.

 

[krabapple]

So, in short: Denon Link doesn't carry SACD but Firewire does. But we're still stuck on Denon solutions since no word of cross-vendor interop, type/format/standardization on the bitstream format, etc. Well, better than nothing I guess...



Not really...

No, *Denon* owners are stuck with Denon's proprietary link. Pioneer, Yamaha, and a few others already employ Firewire (ilink) and are interoperable, as reported by David Ranada in S&V awhile back in a review of Yamaha's flagship AVR, and as
chronicled extensively on this AVS Forum thread

 

[Yup]

No, *Denon* owners are stuck with Denon's proprietary link. Pioneer, Yamaha, and a few others already employ Firewire (ilink) and are interoperable, as reported by David Ranada in S&V awhile back in a review of Yamaha's flagship AVR, and as
chronicled extensively on this AVS Forum thread

Wow, that was a monster thread of what. Took two days to read, but really in-depth.

In short, for reference purposes only: The protocol carried over Firewire is called A&M (Audio & Music) standard and uses DTCP (also called "5C") encryption. However, it seems inter-operable and -- after more than 6 months from its original introduction -- supported by Denon on the DVD-5900 (1 year ago). Meaning it should be supported w/o headaches on recent/new products.

Thanks for all that contributed.

 

[khewa]

PC-Firewire to AVR-Firewire

it looks like the different audio vendors (Sony, Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha) are able to operate with one another through the firewire port. What about the PC ? Can we send audio out through the firewire port to say the Pioneer AVR ? The software that does this can encrypt it so that it can be decoded on the AVR side. I've yet to see any software that does this though. Anybody has any ideas if this is do able ?

Come to think of it, why isn't there any graphics card with HDMI in the market ?

I think the PC will be a good universal transport. It's cheap (if we have one, there's no additional cost), very reliable (ie. has error correction features) and if the laser breaks down, we can always buy a new one for less than $100.
For high end audio, we'll get an outboard DAC that decodes all formats (redbook CD, DVD-Audio, SACD, MP3, WMA...and that's just the audio formats). This technology should be available right now, but I'm unable to find it today.

 

[MDS]

Both NVidia and ATI have announed their intent to add HDMI to their upcoming graphics cards.

Firewire is just a transport protocol, so it could conceivably be used to connect a PC to a receiver if sofware were written that knows the data format to send over the firewire link.

p.s. DACS don't decode audio formats. You would need an external decoder that could decode all of the formats you mention. They currently exist for Dolby Digital and DTS. Rebook CD is PCM and MP3/WMA are lossy compressed versions of PCM, so they work right now. Licensing restrictions are what slow down support for dvd-a (MLP) and SACD (DSD), but sooner or later that will probably happen too.

 

[DavidA]

Denon-link does, in its latest version, pass SACD. My 3910 was upgraded last night.

If nothing else, it lights up more of the display on the amp.

I haven't listened to it much since the upgrade, but it seems to make DSOTM sound a little crisper than the IEEE394 link that I was using before.

 

[krzywica]

it looks like the different audio vendors (Sony, Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha) are able to operate with one another through the firewire port. What about the PC ? Can we send audio out through the firewire port to say the Pioneer AVR ? The software that does this can encrypt it so that it can be decoded on the AVR side. I've yet to see any software that does this though. Anybody has any ideas if this is do able ?

Come to think of it, why isn't there any graphics card with HDMI in the market ?

I think the PC will be a good universal transport. It's cheap (if we have one, there's no additional cost), very reliable (ie. has error correction features) and if the laser breaks down, we can always buy a new one for less than $100.
For high end audio, we'll get an outboard DAC that decodes all formats (redbook CD, DVD-Audio, SACD, MP3, WMA...and that's just the audio formats). This technology should be available right now, but I'm unable to find it today.

Why would you need hdmi I have never seen a gpu with a sound card combo, and dvi and hdmi are reverse compatible, so what use would it be? Other than the extreme bandwidth needed for 1080p I would'nt see a use for it?

 

[khewa]

Reduce clutter

Why would you need hdmi I have never seen a gpu with a sound card combo, and dvi and hdmi are reverse compatible, so what use would it be? Other than the extreme bandwidth needed for 1080p I would'nt see a use for it?

basically to reduce clutter in a HTPC system. In the version 1.2 of HDMI, it is supposed to support multichannel audio. That being the case, I can link my HTPC to my AVR with just a single cable. I've a fetish for tidiness.