Everythin sounds fine until things get loud...

[wallm]

My cousin gave me a denon 3802 reciver with dts 7.1 & Klipsch SP1 speakers (with sides and center) and the ksw-12 sub.

Things sound great nice spacial and surround, with wind and stuff. But as soon as the action hits (opening squence when dennis quaid almost falls in the ice chasm in day after tomorrow for example) it all collapses:

Everything sounds too bright. Especially voice. no seperation, it sounds like a big loud muddy mess that hurts the ears. Do I have it too loud? but if i do when sounds turn to "normal" it might be too soft to hear.
Of course it sounds a lot better than my creative 7.1 speakers. my room is about 11x22 long. sofa in the middle, did speaker placements as recommend in denon manual. fronts center sides sub and 2 rears (cheap 10in rca speakers)



I have been reading a lot of what u guys have been saying...alot over my head..i kend a get the notion of nodes and stuff, but not what that means in placement...

I have toed the fronts in and moved away from front wall..it does sound better. but still not when things get loud and busy.

I am a poor gadget guy (the worst combination) and want to buy a sound meter and the cara software to make things sound good. Am I too much of a newbie to bother with this stuff? Will it even help my problem?...well i have already put a bid on a meter..

 

[ScottMayo]

Stuff to try:

Check the wattage requirements of the speakers. Maybe they need more power than the receiver can put out. You can get very harsh sound when an amp starts to max out. At 100w/channel that shouldn't be your problem, but from your description it sounds like it is.

Pull all the speakers away from the walls and if the sofa is really centered (11' back in a 22' room), move it back 3', so it's 14' back, not 11'. Dead center causes problems.

Turn off the sub. If everything clears up, you had too much bass and your ears react to too much bass by reporting everything is out of whack. That's not uncommon.

Toe speakers in sharply; point the center speaker so it fires over your head. If that clears up the excessive brightness, you might want to start saving up for differerent speakers. You might be one of those lucky people with a small budget and fussy ears.

If none of that helps, start saving dollars for acoustic treatments and new gear.

If things are messed up enough that it hurts to listen to, you won't need the test meter. Just reposition for minimum pain. You Are Your Own Test Meter.

 

[Ethan Winer]

wallm,

> Everything sounds too bright. Especially voice. no seperation, it sounds like a big loud muddy mess that hurts the ears. Do I have it too loud? <

This is probably due to excess room ambience. I'd take Scott's advice, but maybe reverse the order to put acoustic treatment first.

It's not as complex as you might think either. The cause of most problems like this is sound from the speakers bounces all around the room, so multiple "copies" of the same sound arrive at your ears at different times. This creates a jumbled mess that's unpleasant to listen to. Once a room is properly treated you should be able to play a well-mixed CD or DVD movie very loudly without pain, or very soft with little loss in clarity.

--Ethan

 

[gene]

Check the wattage requirements of the speakers. Maybe they need more power than the receiver can put out. You can get very harsh sound when an amp starts to max out. At 100w/channel that shouldn't be your problem, but from your description it sounds like it is.

Not likely. He is using Klipsch speakers.

I agree with Ethan. It is likely your room is to reverberant. Klipsch speakers in an overly reflective room can be very harsh on your ears. You should assess your room acoustics before sinking any additional money into electronics or speakers.

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

My cousin gave me a denon 3802 reciver with dts 7.1 & Klipsch SP1 speakers (with sides and center) and the ksw-12 sub.

Things sound great nice spacial and surround, with wind and stuff. But as soon as the action hits (opening squence when dennis quaid almost falls in the ice chasm in day after tomorrow for example) it all collapses:

Everything sounds too bright. Especially voice. no seperation, it sounds like a big loud muddy mess that hurts the ears. Do I have it too loud? but if i do when sounds turn to "normal" it might be too soft to hear.

You're experiencing the classic effects of bad room acoustics. Treating room acoustics is a critical stage of building any HT. Even the most expensive speakers will sound like a muddied up mess, if the room acoustics are ignored.

 

[wallm]

My partner is gonna love this...

Well things actually do sound better ( i got my comforter on my wood floor too )
But the speakers still....I turned the treble down all the way 12db, and it was better, still kinda muddy but not as tinny. i know this is not a good solution.

I do get a lot more seperation overall though.(noticed that when i played the opening of dayafter tomorrow again) For my reference now I am using the DTS-ES Gladiator sequence when he first enters the stadium, a lot of noise and loud.

Even playing direct (no sub or sides) it aint good

What do you think? I got crappy wires hooked up right now... would that make a real diff with real good ones?
Is it more the speakers or the reicever?

Is there a way I can test a speaker or both speakers, like in a small room with blankets and pillows everywhere?

I REALLY appreciate everyone for responding to this...if it is what it is ill live with it for now and save. It's not knowing what to try and that I could fix it if knew what to do that is frustrating.
You guys are really helping me out with that point, and i reeally thank ya!

Wally

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

Untortunately,
Hanging blankets will only absorb a very small portion of your problem.

You need something that absorbs a much broader frequency range to really fix your problems.

Something like these would be a great starting point.
http://gikacoustics.com/index.html

I recently added 244s to my theater, and it made a rather drastic improvement in sound quality.

And yes.... I own Klipsch too(different models though)

 

[Glenn Kuras]

Untortunately,
Hanging blankets will only absorb a very small portion of your problem.

You need something that absorbs a much broader frequency range to really fix your problems.

Something like these would be a great starting point.
http://gikacoustics.com/index.html

I recently added 244s to my theater, and it made a rather drastic improvement in sound quality.

And yes.... I own Klipsch too(different models though)

I love posts like this! The first time you and I talked on the phone, your first question to me was "Ok so what is going to happen when I put these darn panels in? What will I hear?" mmmmmmm guess you answered your own question.

Glenn

 

[ScottMayo]

What do you think? I got crappy wires hooked up right now... would that make a real diff with real good ones?
Is it more the speakers or the reicever?

Is there a way I can test a speaker or both speakers, like in a small room with blankets and pillows everywhere?

You need a bigger room. Since that's probably not an option, we'll skip that and get to what's possible.

Blankets, even folded 8 ply, make very little difference - it's enough to quickly tell if you have a problem, not enough to fix it. Pillows do some good, except you'd need to cover about a 3rd or a 4th of your wall area with them, to get anywhere. Ugly.

You got an improvement in imaging by adding some rudimentary trapping - a sign you're on the right track. It takes real trapping, and more of it, properly placed, to clean up frequency response. If you are broke, and handy with tools, you can build your own traps. (Don't kill me, Ethan and Glenn). If you can save up some cash and want better performance and appearance, you can buy them. My room is significantly treated (makes sense, if you check out my website) and I can attest to the huge difference treatment makes.

Wires make virtually no difference. I have a high end system and I run Monster cable to my speakers, and there's nothing special about it, except it's a little overpriced for what it does. If you are using super cheap 16ga speaker wire, you might conceivably get some difference with 10ga, but I very much doubt that's the issue here.

I'm not a Klipsch guy myself, but lots of people like them and you should be able to get good performance out of them. The Denon receiver is midfi at best, but midfi these days still means very good performance. You might get better sound with different components, but it's not the place to start.

So set your budget. This is always the first step. If you can scrape up $250, you're going to build your own traps and spend hours experimenting, and probably get passable results. If you can scrape up $3000, you can get bloody marvelous results with an acoustic plan and lots of commercially produced trapping. Most people end up somewhere between, and are mostly happy.

Unfortunately, really excellent acoustics depends on thickness. Not of the absorptive materials so much, but of the wallet. Consider your goals before opening the wallet.

 

[wallm]

Just a little more wonderful advice audio gods.

I don't want to beat this thread into the ground. I am very sure your right about the accoustics, but two things and we can call it quits on this thread:

(see above illustration) could I hang velvet with say vinyl backing (or whatever you would suggest that would be strong enough to block and absorb) around the viewing area like in theaters, and curve it around back to minimize reflections? I could just pull it back to the screen for during the day. How important is the ceiling? (plaster about 9 feet high. the room is 12x22). Also bringing athe curtain around the back wouldnt have to deal with the reflections of the computer area/bar/corners. Could I put the sub back there and minimize reflections? actually the curtain would have to part about 4 or 5 feet for the projector to shine thru. (unless I mount it closer on the cieling vs. on the shelf.
Wouldnt somthing like this take care of everything in one cheap swoop?



I am still worried about those speakers though...like I said im sure u guys are right..but this is what I tested:
I am playing speakers direct, and testing with both and one at a time (NO SUBS OR SIDES). the crowd in gladiator still sounds harsh, (if anyone has it with a good system, play that scene if ya can, can u really get a loud crowd sound that is clear and distinct?)
I am turning the speakers every which way, even toward the walls! i loose spatial quite a lot, but that range of sound always sounds muddy, like either the speakers can't get that defining range or the reicever can't differiencate the sound. This moment in the movie is very midrange to high. Like I said, when things quiet down or even fairly active with bass it sounds acceptable, not the best it could be im sure, but ok. but whenever that range of sound (lots of wind, breaking ice, people yelling, or crowds), it sounds cramped/harsh, i wish i could describe it better.

I am really happy with what I got, I would just like to try something inexpensive to help things. But I will save up you guys think it is the best thing to do and buy absorbers/speakers/ recivers in whatver of importance first.
Ok thanks, thats it!!!

 

[ScottMayo]

Concept artist, huh?

Anyway: the curtain will give some help with high frequency sound. Not much, though. And that much curtain probably won't be cheap.

About the cheapest stuff around that absorbs well is Owens Corning 703 insulation, 2" thick, placed on walls with an air gap behind it. You probably need about 180 sq ft, less if it's carefully positioned. Or about 12 of the traps sold by companies represented on this list, properly positioned. Maybe less, if the carpet is thick and the furniture absorbs well. I'd start with 6 and see if you hear a difference.

Good luck!

 

[wallm]

How sweet it is...almost

U guys are right your right.

I got about 7 1/2in 2x4 fiberglass acoustic panels today. leaned them nillywilly all over the place (even one on top of the ceiling fan!) just too see.

God I can't believe it. the seperation, the clarity. can actually start hearing the voices in the opening of day after tomorow when the ice shelf cracks. Things are still shrill, but soooo much better.

So...now, lots of reading, making traps, deflectors, what are and where are 1st reflections yada yada..thanks a lot guys!! I can see I am gonna get really obsessive!!
I'll start askin questions after i know a lot more....u guys must get tired of questions like these..but it is always greatly appreciated!!

 

[Ethan Winer]

God I can't believe it. the seperation, the clarity.

Looks like we have another convert.

Click HERE

From now on I will post this link every time someone treats their room for the first time and finally gets it.

--Ethan

 

[Glenn Kuras]

Ethan, actually a trumpet sound would work much better! You got any of those?

Glenn

 

[Glenn Kuras]

U guys are right your right.

I got about 7 1/2in 2x4 fiberglass acoustic panels today. leaned them nillywilly all over the place (even one on top of the ceiling fan!) just too see.

God I can't believe it. the seperation, the clarity. can actually start hearing the voices in the opening of day after tomorow when the ice shelf cracks. Things are still shrill, but soooo much better.

So...now, lots of reading, making traps, deflectors, what are and where are 1st reflections yada yada..thanks a lot guys!! I can see I am gonna get really obsessive!!
I'll start askin questions after i know a lot more....u guys must get tired of questions like these..but it is always greatly appreciated!!

Welcome to the club, pull up a chair and enjoy the music!! Now lets see you make those into 4" panels and straddle a few corners.. Bass traps my son, bass traps.