Ethics Question

[itschris]

Just had a bit of a debate with my buddy about getting music from Bit Torrent sites. We were both lamenting the amount of time it takes to rip cds and of course Blu-Rays. He says it's okay to download from torrent sites if you have the disc at home. His argument is that if you own it, what does it matter if you rip it yourself or download from a torrent site. He believes that can't be illegal... because he already owns the disc.

At first, I thought that can't be a ethical... but now... thinking about it... does he have a point. The only thing I guess is that yo should't support the sites I suppose. It seems like a nice alternative. I can just download a CD, upload it to iTunes Match to get the best digital copy of the music, then download it back from Match to my library and get rid of the old lower quality files.

If I have the disc, does it really matter?

 

[Pyrrho]

I can think of some reasons not to download it, even if your friend is right that you do already own the right to copy the movie or music because you already own the disc (note, however, that laws in other countries may differ from the U.S., so consult the laws in the relevant jurisdiction before proceeding). First of all, as you already thought about, do you want to support such sites? And second, such sites may introduce malware into your computer. And third, someone might come after you for using an illegal site, when copying your own disc will not likely have that result. Fourth, if the disc you own is not the same version (not the same mastering or whatever) as is on the site, then you don't have the legal right to that copy of it, and may be properly prosecuted for copying it.

I recommend that you don't use such sites.

 

[itschris]

Playing devil's advocate only... isn't that splitting hairs? Isn't the goal of raiding someone's house to arrest someone who is benefiting from downloading things they don't legally own? Let's say I was a singer. Why would I care if someone who already paid for my disc, downloads that same disc? Let's assume for a moment that we're doing this under the premise that I originally laid out, i.e., not with the intention of doing anything untoward.

 

[Pyrrho]

Playing devil's advocate only... isn't that splitting hairs? Isn't the goal of raiding someone's house to arrest someone who is benefiting from downloading things they don't legally own? Let's say I was a singer. Why would I care if someone who already paid for my disc, downloads that same disc? Let's assume for a moment that we're doing this under the premise that I originally laid out, i.e., not with the intention of doing anything untoward.

Most likely, it is not a decision that the singer will make, but will be decided by the record company. Since we are talking about the law and big business, why would you imagine that being reasonable has anything to do with it? And anyway, if and when they decide to come after you, they will not know that you already purchased the disc, as that is not known just from you downloading a file, and once the process is in motion, they will be loathe to stop it.

I fully expect most people to ignore the advice I gave. If they get their computer infected with malware because of it, that is their problem. If a record company sues them into bankruptcy, that is their problem. If nothing happens to them, then we can wonder whether it was worth it for the slight concern they may have had that someone will come after them. That, by the way, is a reason to not do illegal things; worrying about getting caught is a reason not to do something, even if, in fact, one does not get caught. That particularly applies to things with no statute of limitations, but one can worry during the time that one can be prosecuted enough to not make it worthwhile in other cases as well.

Again, I expect that the advice will be ignored by the vast majority who read it. But since you asked the question, I answered in what I consider to be the best way. Undoubtedly, you will decide for yourself what to do.

 

[itschris]

Most likely, it is not a decision that the singer will make, but will be decided by the record company. Since we are talking about the law and big business, why would you imagine that being reasonable has anything to do with it? And anyway, if and when they decide to come after you, they will not know that you already purchased the disc, as that is not known just from you downloading a file, and once the process is in motion, they will be loathe to stop it.

I fully expect most people to ignore the advice I gave. If they get their computer infected with malware because of it, that is their problem. If a record company sues them into bankruptcy, that is their problem. If nothing happens to them, then we can wonder whether it was worth it for the slight concern they may have had that someone will come after them. That, by the way, is a reason to not do illegal things; worrying about getting caught is a reason not to do something, even if, in fact, one does not get caught. That particularly applies to things with no statute of limitations, but one can worry during the time that one can be prosecuted enough to not make it worthwhile in other cases as well.

Again, I expect that the advice will be ignored by the vast majority who read it. But since you asked the question, I answered in what I consider to be the best way. Undoubtedly, you will decide for yourself what to do.

It's just a friendly discussion here... it's not personal. I posted it to get some thoughts because I think it presents a unique circumstance: How can you be accused of stealing something you own? I'm not sure if it's illegal. l

 

[Pyrrho]

It's just a friendly discussion here... it's not personal. I posted it to get some thoughts because I think it presents a unique circumstance: How can you be accused of stealing something you own? I'm not sure if it's illegal. l

Do you own the site from which the files are downloaded? Are those files copies of your copy? If not, in what sense can you be said to own those files that are downloaded? They are different files from the ones you bought, and were not created from your files. So how can you claim any ownership of those files? (And if they were created from your copy, then they might come after you for illegal distribution of copyrighted material.)

If I own a car, I am still able to steal a car, exactly like the car I own. Likewise, if I own a CD of some music, I am still able to steal another CD just like it. So owning something does not prevent theft of something else that is just like what one legally obtained. That you own the right to have a particular copy of something does not entail the right to own every other copy of it.

In your example of downloading, the site is illegally distributing copies of copyrighted material, and one is obtaining a copy that is illegally distributed. That sounds like something illegal to me, though as I am not a lawyer, I recommend one consult the appropriate professional in one's jurisdiction for such details.


Just to be perfectly clear, I think it extremely unlikely that one will be prosecuted for downloading copyrighted material. Malware, on the other hand, is a much more likely possibility when downloading files from sites known to do illegal things. And that should surprise no one; after all, if they are doing something illegal anyway, why not do something else that is illegal from which they might make a profit?

 

[ImcLoud]

Hey what if you have no intentions on buying it and will probably never listen to it, is it ok then? LOL... Its a bad idea to dl stuff you don't own but people will do it, I figure with itunes and every song at my fingertips for less than .99 whats the point, plus I get so many itunes gift cards it would not make sense for me to "steal" music... How many of the people that steal music would have bought it? Taylor Swift may have been able to buy 2 mansions instead of,,,,, oohhh wait...

And while you most likely will never be convicted with a crime like this and owning a copy already is a grey {ethically} area, would you sneak back in a theater to watch a movie you already paid to see? Would you rape a hooker you already paid to be with the day before?

I guess if I had a copy of a disc, and didn't have a way to get that on my ipod, and it wasn't available on itunes, and the only place I could get it on my ipod was one of them sites, and I just had to have it on my ipod, I would do it... But that is an obscure perfect storm of circumstances to satisfy before I would bother, I have purchased A LOT of music that I own on cd, just because I don't want to take the time to take it from a cd to ipod... I have bought 2 copies of a cd that I really liked if I wanted one in my house and one in my truck {yeas ago before ipods}, with your friends thought process I should have just walked back in the store and put the other copy under my jacket, or they should make it so you can buy more copies for the price of a disc and jacket....

It all comes down to if you can sleep at night, sure some people do or don't do things for fear of legal punishment, but much more important than that is if you can live with your self, I learned this when I was younger, a kid from the town where I grew up DUI'd his car and killed his friend, he was under 18 and back then the laws were different and he basically got no punishment, they could only take his licence until he was 18, he killed himself 3 months after the incident and left a note saying he couldn't go on living knowing what he had done.... When I heard the entire story {small town, my parents and his were close, but we were different ages so not really a friend of mine, I had been in his company many many times, but he was 4 years older than me and at that age it may as well be 50 years} it hit me, the law means nothing, they can cage you in some cases kill you {this is rare and getting more rare unless you are in Texas}, but the real punishment is if you can live with your actions, so if stealing music doesn't cause you any internal conflict, then knock yourself out, I'm not god {I don't think} and I won't judge you...

 

[itschris]

The premise of all this is really about time. I have over 40 bd discs that I want to put on my new HTPC. I literally spent weeks upon weeks ripping all my CD's. I'm already dreading the amount of time to rip my movies. I believe it's already been established that digital media is different in a legal context from say... using your example... a car. Not any less rightfully owned, just different. Clearly you can't take a car just like yours and convert it into some other form of car, so your example falls a bit out the discussion.

The push behind preventing sites like Napster, and the original thieves from doing what they do is because you had the originators of the self-entitled generation feeling, arguing, believing, and defending that they had some right to take something they wanted and not pay for it. To this day I'm still floored by that mentality but that's a different discussion. So if the real goal is to prevent someone from taking something that doesn't belong to them, getting something for free that they don't already have... then I don't really see this as the same thing.

i'm not even saying it's right, nor do I even know how to use a torrent site anyway. I am absolutely allowed to make copies of my own media. If I create a digital file of my Nirvana disc, seriously... what is the difference if that file comes from my own disc or someone else... say even my neighbor from across the street who owns the same disc. I'm not debating how smart it is to use those sites because of the malware and all that... I was really coming from the ethics angle.. not really even a legal one... just the morality of it.

When I thought about it, I felt my buddy had a point.

 

[Pyrrho]

... what is the difference if that file comes from my own disc or someone else... say even my neighbor from across the street who owns the same disc.

It may seem to be practically the same, but that does not mean that it is legally the same. For the latter question, a lawyer would be the one to consult. If you are unsure, you can avoid the possibility of legal troubles by not using the illegal site.

Maybe it would be legal, but even if you knew it were (which we don't), I still wouldn't recommend it due to the risk of malware.

Now, to directly answer your actual question at the start, I don't think it is unethical to do what you want to do. But that is not the practical question to be asking, and it is not the only consideration. That I think something is ethical does not make it legal, nor does it mean that there are not other risks involved (e.g., malware). So if it makes you feel better, I don't think you are a bad person to do what you have suggested. But I still don't recommend doing it.

 

[psbfan9]

This may seem too simple of an answer but, if you are asking, mulling over, debating, and rationalizing the question of if it's ethical, then it probably isn't.

How many discs could you have burned in the time it's taken you to debate with your neighbor and post here?

 

[Adam]

I think the question to ask is: what do you actually own? If the answer is that you own the rights to view and listen to that material on any private device that you choose, then I don't believe that it matters from where you obtain the material.

Talking about blu-rays and CDs can, IMO, confuse the issue because we can gravitate towards the thought that these are physical objects, but that the torrent download isn't. It leads to thoughts and conversation about the torrent files being different files. However, if you consider downloaded material that you pay for, perhaps it's easier to visualize that these are just 1's and 0's put together in a particular order. Optical discs just store the digital data, as do memory drives. We move and copy files on memory drives all of the time, so we probably rarely actually have the "original" version that we purchased for download. However, it's still legal.

Therefore, I think the answer to the question is - yes, you own the right to use the material. I do not believe that it is unethical to download an identical copy of material that you have purchased. However, I think that it is absolutely unethical to make those downloads available to anyone without obtaining proof that they own the rights. So, for torrents, perhaps the question is - is it ethical to save time by engaging with unethical people? I have no answer for that.

 

[Pyrrho]

This may seem too simple of an answer but, if you are asking, mulling over, debating, and rationalizing the question of if it's ethical, then it probably isn't.

Although I think that is true of some people (that they never think of ethics unless they have a guilty conscience), I don't think that is the case here. He already paid for the music and movies, and he is only wondering if there is anything wrong with downloading a copy for his personal use instead of copying his legally purchased copy for his personal use. He is not trying to watch any movie without paying for it, or listen to any music without paying for it.

 

[psbfan9]

Although I think that is true of some people (that they never think of ethics unless they have a guilty conscience), I don't think that is the case here. He already paid for the music and movies, and he is only wondering if there is anything wrong with downloading a copy for his personal use instead of copying his legally purchased copy for his personal use. He is not trying to watch any movie without paying for it, or listen to any music without paying for it.

Oh sure I know that. I'm not trying to give Chris a hard time, just having a conversation.

 

[lsiberian]

The fact is your are criminal and a felon in the eyes of the police and the prosecutor. To them life in prison without parole would be mercy for all your crimes. This why I don't talk about my own criminal activities. But say someone was to download a movie or song from my Swedish friend's link. It doesn't really bother me. But the majority in our country want it to be illegal so it is. The majority think it's wrong. I personally think it's wrong. You should know that isp's monitor known torrent sites. A legal battle would cost you a lot of legal fees even if you win.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

 

[ImcLoud]

This why I don't talk about my own criminal activities.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

As long as you aren't supposed to alert your neighbors when you move into their area, then I wouldn't talk about it either..

 

[shadyJ]

It seems to me unethical to DL tracks from pirate sites, even if you already own them because by trafficking in those sites you are affirming that practice. It's the same principle for those that traffic child pornography sites, the mere traffic is, in a way, a sanction of that practice. Now don't take me to mean that someone who downloads pirated media is anywhere near as bad as someone who frequents a child porn site, that isn't the parallel that I am making. But in each case every hit is counted as a success by the site operators, no matter how innocuous the visit.

 

[itschris]

It seems to me unethical to DL tracks from pirate sites, even if you already own them because by trafficking in those sites you are affirming that practice. It's the same principle for those that traffic child pornography sites, the mere traffic is, in a way, a sanction of that practice. Now don't take me to mean that someone who downloads pirated media is anywhere near as bad as someone who frequents a child porn site, that isn't the parallel that I am making. But in each case every hit is counted as a success by the site operators, no matter how innocuous the visit.

I agree with you and this is pretty much where I was on my own thinking when I was talking to him.

 

[herbu]

So, I was going to drive to Colorado next week and buy some accessories in a perfectly legal storefront. But I started thinking about how much time the drive would take, and really began to dread the waste of time. So I just called a friend of mine locally, who had the same accessories. Figure it's the same thing, and saved me a lot of time.

 

[slipperybidness]

If you read up on the video game sites, and believe what they tell you, then they indicate that this type of thing is not illegal.

In that context, they are always talking about downloading game ROMs for emulation software. In any article that I have ever seen on such matters, they always throw in a disclaimer that the actions are not illegal because they own the original copy of the game, and therefore they have already purchased the license to play said game.

Now, the threat of getting malware from a DL site is very real. Also, I like to rip my own CDs with EAC so that I know I have a bit-perfect copy.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

So, I was going to drive to Colorado next week and buy some accessories in a perfectly legal storefront. But I started thinking about how much time the drive would take, and really began to dread the waste of time. So I just called a friend of mine locally, who had the same accessories . Figure it's the same thing, and saved me a lot of time.

and you say accessories, you mean certain dried plants ?

itschris, the LAW as it stands now is: you COULD legally make backup copies of your content, but then you'd have to break the DVD/BD disk protection and that is illegal and so is making tools to facilitate that (aka products from SlySoft Products | Backup Movie DVDs with AnyDVD and CloneDVD)

The only answer for that LEGALLY is a "digital copy" - it's a heavily DRMed service which makes playback impossible on most devices other than pc/mac. Walmart will "convert" your movies to this service for small fee - Walmart will let shoppers convert DVDs to UltraViolet digital copies without leaving home | The Verge

So downloading a DRM free movie from internet would not be legal, even if you own the movie disk.

Now, should ignore it - it's you own call

As in for my own opinion is MPAA/RIAA mafia are stuck in ancient ways of thinking and will force you to their updated business model, rather that adopt with the times - see what Netflix does as an example.

No one yet got into legal trouble for simply Downloading a "pirated" content, but for illegal distribution - and this is due how torrent work - even if you downloaded only 1/10000 of the whole file you are already sharing it and thus - distributing.

Now only if such service could exist where you could download files without sharing them.... One could be MUCH, much less likely to get into legal troubles, especially if all traffic from and to such service is fully encrypted....