Emotiva Ultra Subs 10 & 12 First Look

[visiter555]

Has anyone done a in room eval of these yet?

 

[dropsonde]

for the price this is very intriguing

 

[son-yah-tive]

I saw the sale they have on them...It sure is tempting.

 

[wesley63]

Now the sale price is on sale. I could not resist, I ordered an Ultra 10.

Jim

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

Be sure to give us a firsthand review when it arrives. Was $269 your final price then?

 

[sail0003]

Experience with Emotiva Ultra Sub 12

This is my first post here, and I am not a sophistacted user, so take this for what it is worth. This is a great site, by the way, with lots of knowledgeable people. I appreciate all the time and effort that it takes to keep such an endeavor going.

As part of some work that has been going on in my home, I decided to upgrade my aging home theater setup. The living room is approximately 4500 ft^3, and roughly rectangular in shape. There is a fireplace in the center of one long wall, with the a/v components to the left of it. The right front speaker is to the right of it, so it is a bit unbalanced in layout. Current speakers are all Mirage- M-790's for front, M-490's for surround, center is OM-C3-1, and sub is PS-12-90. Most components are early to mid-90's vintage.

As part of the changes I swapped an old NDA T-761 AV receiver for a Denon 2310, and ordered an Emotiva Ultra 12 sub and their surrounds.

I hooked everything up, using the new sub in the right front corner. Before running the audessey, the sound was good, but not great. After running the Audessey, the sound was amazing! The trebles and mids had new life to them, great depth, and I felt totally immersed in something incredible that I had never heard before.

The bass was musically perfect. With the old setup I could sort of feel the lower bass, but there was no definition to it. I could hear low tones, but there was no shape to them, and I couldn't distinguish what note was being played - it was just generally 'low'. That had pretty much been it for years now, and I had decided that my hearing had deteriorated enough that I wouldn't be able to distinguish low notes. Even more, I had decided that that all the clamor about subs was pretty much marketing hype.

All of a sudden, I"m hearing bass with precision and clarity. The sub, however, had just disappeared. Did I mention that I was rather unsophisticated at this? ) Another thing I didn't mention was that I have bi-amped the front speakers, which really did breathe new life into them.

On movies, though, I was a bit disappointed. I didn't feel the visceral impact of the bass in my chest, which I was hoping for from a new sub.

So, I congratulated myself on having the foresight some years ago to buy such great speakers and the new receiver, and decided the sub wasn't really adding anything, and packed it up and shipped it back to Emotiva.

Big mistake.

That evening, I hauled out the old sub and hooked it up, thinking that it would provide a bit of impact for movies and little else. The bass was back to the old muddy sound, and the mid-bass had lost some of the depth. The highs still sounded good, but the overall experience was many notches below what it had been. It is still a good sounding system, but without the tight sub it is not at all exceptional. My wife, who is not all that excited about the whole thing, also commented and asked me what was wrong with the sound now.

So - conclusions. The Emotiva sub has an amazing sound, but is not quite powerful enough for the size of this room. I'm continuing my online sub shopping, now looking primarily at 15" subs with a bit more power to give me that desired impact. The ones that I'm considering include:
Hsu ULS-15
ED A7S-450
Rhythmik 15" subs
Epik Empire.

All of those are out of my price range, but I will stretch if I think there will be a significant impact.

 

[j_garcia]

With the current pricing, why not add a second Ultra 12? IMO, all of those 15s will increase your impact, but dual 12s will likely do as much or more for you. The Empire might be a different story since it is dual 15s.

 

[sholling]

ED A7S-450
Rhythmik 15" subs
Epik Empire.

All of those are out of my price range, but I will stretch if I think there will be a significant impact.

Is there a reason for restricting things to sealed subs? Because a $650 Hsu VTF-3 should comfortably fill that space.

 

[sail0003]

Is there a reason for restricting things to sealed subs? Because a $650 Hsu VTF-3 should comfortably fill that space.

Not really. Because I have been musically pleased with the sound of the first sealed sub, I thought I would stay with that design.

My sense is that all of those are quality products, and that I would be thrilled with any of them. I would like to spend as little as possible to get something I will be excited about. Further, I would like it to be the next upgrade to the system, and something that will form a solid basis for future upgrades. I don't want to be in the position in 3 years where I wished I had gone an extra $100 to get something more.

A little more about the Emotiva sub. It was a definite improvement over the existing system. I just spent a little more time with the system as it is now and the old sub, and have decided it sounds better without the old sub. The bass is clearer, cleaner, and the midbass much better. The audessey setup automatically assigned the front M-790's as 'large'. They are rated to have a range down to 30Hz, and I believe it. They sound good in the low bass, but lack authority. The emovita sub augmented that.

On movies, though, not only did it lack the impact, but also perhaps the lower frequencies. Extension? For instance, many people have mentioned the cannons in the first battle scene in "Master and Commander' in subwoofer evaluations. I was looking forward to playing that, and feeling that, but the canons didn't stand out at all, and were only moderately heard.

I'm not sure, but I don't think adding a 2nd emotiva sub will increase the frequency range. I can read the numbers, but don't have a feel for what 22 Hz or 18 Hz or whatever physically represent and should sound like.

I am intrigued by the Rhythmic subs and their specs, but have found very little about them in the way of reviews or otherwise.

Ideally I would buy all the subs and demo them in my home. The shipping cost of returns rules that out, so I am depending on other people's experiences to make the best decision that I can. That's tough, though, in that you can almost always find people that weigh in on either side of just about anything.

I have at least satisfied myself that a good subwoofer will represent a substantial improvement to the sound of the system that I do have, both for music and for HT.

Thanks again for your assistance and observations. Decisions decisions......

 

[j_garcia]

Master and Commander Blu-ray? That one we know seems to have had somethng happen to the LFE on the lowest notes in that scene for some reason compared to the DVD (based on waterfall charts done by users), so you might want to take a look at the "good scenes for low bass" thread for some other movies to try.

No, a second sub won't extend deeper, but the gain in output would be greater than a single, comparable 15" sub. The low end on a sealed sub is also not going to give you the same kind of rumble and impact that a vented design will, so if that is what you are after, you might need to consider some additional subs in your range.

 

[sail0003]

Master and Commander Blu-ray? That one we know seems to have had somethng happen to the LFE on the lowest notes in that scene for some reason compared to the DVD (based on waterfall charts done by users), so you might want to take a look at the "good scenes for low bass" thread for some other movies to try

Thanks! I've got both the BD and DVD, I"ll check out the DVD.

 

[sholling]

Well for what it's worth I've been shopping for new subwoofer for my master bedroom for a while and spoke with Brian from Rythmik. My bedroom is roughly 3000cuft and he felt that while a F12 might work (barely) in my room if placed in a corner. He suggested a 600w E15 as a much better choice for mid-wall placement. I'm space (depth) and placement constrained which is why he suggested the E15 over the 600w version of the F15.

I had the same conversation with eD about their sealed A5s-300 and they felt that it might be struggling if placed away from a corner. They suggested an A3-250 or A3-300 ported sub as better choices. That's in 3000cuft. Just thinking out loud, and I don't have the answer, I have to wonder if it might be worth considering two 12" sealed subs placed in corners. Or a single big bad ported sub. I don't have the "right" answer just more food for thought.

 

[sail0003]

Thanks again - all information helps. I too am space limited, and wife will only tolerate so much. Two subs might be the best way to go. It I could disuise one as an end table, all the better. I might end up buying one now with an eye to adding another when the dust settles. For every day that I consider this a different option looks 'best'.

 

[wesley63]

Be sure to give us a firsthand review when it arrives. Was $269 your final price then?

Yep. I ordered it Friday night and it arrived at my office today while I was working from home. I don't often say it, but I can't wait for work tomorrow. Of course it will be a very long day, sitting there staring at a big box all the way through it.

Jim

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks again - all information helps. I too am space limited, and wife will only tolerate so much. Two subs might be the best way to go. It I could disuise one as an end table, all the better. I might end up buying one now with an eye to adding another when the dust settles. For every day that I consider this a different option looks 'best'.

Look at the Hsu and Outlaw subs for ones that can double as endtables. They're shaped well for that role. Hsu has nice furniture grade finishes and the Outlaw has some kind of glass top. The VTF3 and Outlaw LFM-1 EX would be the best for that, but there is a sale on the VTF2 right now, you can get two shipped for a hair over 1k, which would fill that room nicely. The VTF3 is particularly suited for this task as it has a side-firing driver, which can blast right into your seating area and gives deep bass a nice visceral feel. I have two VTF3's and I have one as a endtable position, it is a blast there. Another advantage to that placement is that it is so close you don't have to worry about the sub filling the whole room since you are right next to it and will suffer hardly any loss of its energy. Look into the advantages of nearfield placement for more information about that.

 

[BufordTJustice]

Thanks! I've got both the BD and DVD, I"ll check out the DVD.

Brother,

I recently upgraded from an eD A2-300 (12" 200 watt sub) that was great as far as music SQ...just too small for my new living room. I got into eD's 18"/1300 watt RMS sealed A7s-450 w/ free eQ.2 equalizer (you don't need the eQ.2 if you've got Audyssey or the like in your receiver). I've had it for about a month and LOVE it. It has TONS of headroom and the ability to play LOW (like 13Hz low in my room). I think it would be a great solution to your problem, but the cheaper, ported A5-350 15"/500 watt RMS sub from eD would also fill your bill equally well in my mind. Heck, the A3-300 would be great for you. I would not rule-out some good ported subs...they can have just the same SQ as sealed subs when designed properly (eD, HSU, SVS are among the companies who know how to design ported subs well). The A5-350 is on sale right now for just over $700 w/ free shipping...maybe you should consider that one if budget and performance are a concern?

You can't go wrong with the A7s-450...but it sounds like it would be overkill for you, to be honest...and your wife doesn't sound like she would approve of that. Size-wise, the A7s-450 is wider than the A5-350...and has more output...but the A5-350 is more like the HSU designs, being taller and more narrow. To get good bass, you need a driver of meaningful size and excursion, a good amp, and a large cabinet. Shrink the cabinet, and you need more of the others in order to compensate.

Also, maybe try TWO of the Emotiva subs? I mean, it won't come close to a 15" or 18" subs' displacement, but it sounds like that would add needed impact to your setup. Can't really beat the A5-350 for the price though.....I'm thinking that may be your holy grail if it's in your budget.

For the record, I am a biased eD fan and have owned both eD and HSU subwoofers (also a HUGE HSU fan). Just wanted you to know that in the interest of full disclosure.

 

[sail0003]

Thanks for the recommendations - everything is helpful. I have been spending the last few days trying to educate myself about subwoofers in general, and trying to determine how best to evaluate a) my current setup, b) where I would like to be, and c) how to tell when I get there. This is something I probably should have done before ordering the Emotiva sub, and definately before sending it back. I"m still kicking myself for that.

The current sub is an old 12" Mirage, ported sub, 90W amp. The front speakers, also mirage, are bi-polar, and I have lived with them for a number of years. As such, I have lots of experience with the variations in sound quality that come from positioning bi-polar speakers. I had no idea, however, that positioning a sub was just as important. I spent some time this morning moving the sub around, and listening to just it with the other speakers unplugged. I've found, that, even with the 90W, I can rattle at least one of the walls if I want to by turning up the volume on the sub. Maybe I just didn't crank up the Emotiva enough?

What I know:
It is purely subjective, but the sound quality of the Emotiva was amazing. Music sounded wonderful, with more definition to the bass than I had ever heard before. This was across the range from low up to mid-bass. Don't know what the upper cutoff frequency was from the AVR.
I didn't feel the impact during movies that I was hoping for.
The room is about 4500 ft^3 feet, with 3 doors (3x8' each) always open: 2 of the doors connecting to halls, one connecting to ~2300 ft^3 kitchen/dining. There are two addtional doorways that are usually closed.

What I think I know:
A sealed sub may have better SQ than a ported sub. Tighter? I'm sure this is hugely debateable.
A ported sub will drive easier and require less power for equivalent SPL.
There are many quality subs out there, and between ED, Hsu, Rhythmik, I probably won't make a bad choice, and almost any of them will provide a significant improvement to what I have now.
I think I need a little more oomph than I got from the Emotiva for this room size.

I"m still waffling on this, and, every day, literally, I decide that I will settle it and buy one sub, only to be convinced about a different sub the next. I have a feeling this will go on as I continue to learn. One challenge is that I am trying to skip a step - not only get the upgrade that the current system screams for, but go one better, to the sub that I would then upgrade to. Of course, by then technology will have probably have improved to the point where the current offereings are obsolete. ) I"m sure I"ll be visiting this and other forums often, as time and obsession permits.


Thanks again for all the input.

 

[Knucklehead90]

... I have two VTF3's and I have one as a endtable position, it is a blast there. Another advantage to that placement is that it is so close you don't have to worry about the sub filling the whole room since you are right next to it and will suffer hardly any loss of its energy. Look into the advantages of nearfield placement for more information about that.

+1 on the end table idea.
I had my eD A5-350 next to my recliner using as an end table for a few months. I may put it back there. No need for a ButtKicker with a 15" sub right next to you.

 

[shadyJ]

+1 on the end table idea.
I had my eD A5-350 next to my recliner using as an end table for a few months. I may put it back there. No need for a ButtKicker with a 15" sub right next to you.

Yeah, I don't know why the idea of near-field sub placement isn't more popular. I think it's just because placement up front with the speakers is more traditional, but there are so many setups which would benefit more from near-field rather than traditional placement. I guess it depends on the sub too, most subs don't have the right dimensions to make a good endtable, but the Hsu's and Outlaws' do. I think the A5-350 would do good in that role to, it looks like it has the right height, width, and depth.

 

[lietuvis91]

Maybe it's just me, but...

just sounds like it's a bit too much to ask for a 4500cu ft room to be thundered by a 10 inch sub (like sail0003 expected), and a budget sub at that!

the fact that u say it's perfect for music intrigues me even more, because I plan to use the sub for a lot of music, and some movies

I have about a 2200cu ft living room, and am SERIOUSLY considering the emotiva 12inch. For $360 shipped, it's hard to beat! I'm sure it'll shake my smaller room. Would be nice to get someone else's experience....