O

ougrad02

Audioholic
When running dual subs is it important for them to match or be the exact same sub? Right now I'm running a HSU vtf3 mkii, which obv I can't get unless I can find one used. I'm having a hard time finding a used one so I'm wondering if I could use another sub HSU potentially. I'm unfamiliar with running dual subs and don't know if it's as important for them to match like the front 3 speakers. Thanks.
 
K

kesando

Junior Audioholic
Just pick up a VTF2 or 3 mk3 and you will be fine. I am running two completely different subs and with proper placement they work great.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
The standard answer here is that you want your two subwoofers to be as close as possible in performance. They are, afterall, producing the exact same sounds at the exact same time, so it's theoretically best if they produce those sounds exactly the same!

However, I'm willing to stick my neck out there a little bit and say that it isn't critical for your two subwoofers to be identical. The reason for this is because we humans suck pretty bad at hearing bass! We have a hard time telling where it's coming from, we have a hard time telling what is distortion and what is the original signal, our ability to hear bass at different sound pressure levels varies wildly (at 85dB, we hear bass down to 20Hz just about as well as all the other audible frequencies, but at 75db, where we can very easily hear mid-range and most treble frequencies, we hear the bass as seeming much quieter than those other, higher frequencies) and we also depend on more than just our actual hearing in order to detect bass - where a tactile sensation will lead us to perceive much "louder" bass, even if the actual SPL isn't any higher!

Basically, in terms of what constitutes "bass quality" the metrics that really matter are: transient response (how quickly the bass notes start to play and how quickly they stop), sheer loudness and extension.

So "matching" your two subwoofers is still a real thing. If you took a cheap, little sub from a HTiB and tried to match it with your HSU VTF-3 MK2, it would be very easy to spot the differences. That little HTiB sub simply won't play as deep, it won't play as loud and it won't have the same tight transient response - so it would make a very poor match and end up distorting your bass when it tries to play the exact same notes at the exact same time as your HSU.

But it isn't vital to get the EXACT same VTF-3 MK2 subwoofer. You just need a subwoofer that has transient response, extension and output that is "quite similar" to your VTF-3 MK2. Your human hearing isn't going to be nearly as picky about the match as it would be for your front three speakers - which are producing mid-range and treble frequencies that our human hearing is quite good at distinguishing ;)

The sub that easily makes the most sense is the HSU VTF-2 MK3. It's the same sub as the older VTF-3 MK2, but just with a less powerful 250Watt amplifier rather than the 350Watt amp in your VTF-3 MK2. Obviously, with that reduction in power, you get a reduction in the sheer output (loudness) that the VTF-2 MK3 can produce, but due to the fact that it takes a doubling of power to produce just 3dB more output, the actual difference in output is really rather small.

On the other hand, if you are getting a second subwoofer purely in order to get louder output (and not so that you can place your two subwoofers in different locations so that you can get smoother bass response at multiple seating locations), then you're going to want to get a second subwoofer that focuses more on output capabilities.

If what you want to do is just make the bass that you already have louder, then you can either replace your VTF-3 MK2 with a single subwoofer that can simply play louder, or you can co-locate (ie. stack or place two subwoofers side-by-side) your exisiting VTF-3 MK2 with a second sub. On the other hand, if what you want to do is create smoother bass response at multiple seating locations, then you are going to place two subwoofers in different locations so that you can create a "virtual sub" whose "image" is located somewhere out in the room where it wouldn't be practical to physically place an actual subwoofer. You can think of it much like how two L/R stereo speakers are able to create a center "image" that makes it seem as though sound is coming from directly in the middle.

When you place two subwoofers in different locations, you don't actually get bass that is much louder. The two subs simply interact with each other and the room and you can use the placement of that "virtual sub" that their imaging creates in order to glean smoother, flatter bass response. If you co-locate your subs, you don't change the flatness of the response at all, you just get louder output - about 6dB louder output if the two subs are identical.

Either way, adding the HSU VTF-2 MK3 makes sense. If you co-locate it with your VTF-3 MK2, you won't get quite the full 6dB boost since the VTF-2 MK3 can't play quite as loud due to its lower powered amp, but it'll still be pretty close. If you use your VTF-3 MK2 and the VTF-2 MK3 in different locations, the difference in output capabilities will be virtually unnoticeable. Meanwhile, the transient response and extension remain very much the same - which is a good thing :) Also, the VTF-3 MK2 and VTF-2 MK3 LOOK identical, so from a cosmetic standpoint, it's an easy choice ;)

Hope that helps!

Oh, and don't forget to decouple your subwoofer(s) from the floor! The VTF-3 MK2 fits PERFECTLY on the standard size Auralex GRAMMA. So does the VTF-2 MK3 (since it's got an identical cabinet ;) ).
 
O

ougrad02

Audioholic
Thanks FirstReflection. That was very helpful. My plan is to put them in different locations for the smoother bass response. So looks like I need to look at getting the vtf3 mk3!
 
tattoo_Dan

tattoo_Dan

Banned
Oh, and don't forget to decouple your subwoofer(s) from the floor! The VTF-3 MK2 fits PERFECTLY on the standard size Auralex GRAMMA
I have a question about that,I live in a mobile or modular home that is about 30" off the ground with not much more than plywood/padding/carpet on the floor,what are your thoughts on using the gramma's or not in my situation ?

see my system in my sig :)

tia,Dan

I have the subs on either side of my tv.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Well, I always say, the worst that the Auralex GRAMMA can do is to NOT improve your bass - it is never a detriment and never makes things worse ;)

In a situation where you have a structure like a manufactured home - a structure that can move rather easily and is definitely not inert - the GRAMMA should make a very noticeable difference.

If you go outside your home, I'll bet you can rather easily hear bass thumping away, even when higher frequencies are very quiet or not heard at all. It's not entirely unlike a car - you've got a structure that can most definitely move and DOES move in sympathy with the vibrations of your subwoofers. That essentially turns your entire home's structure into another source of sound - a gigantic, unintended speaker, if you will!

So outside of the home, with a GRAMMA in place, you will notice a lot less thumping bass. And inside your home, you will notice a great reduction in rattles and physical shaking as well as what sounds like "tighter" bass with less distortion and over-hang.

In other words, I think a GRAMMA would be WELL worth it in your situation, tattoo_Dan. About the only situation where the GRAMMA does not have a positive effect is where a subwoofer is already decoupled due to sitting on top of something like a very thick carpet pad and NOT using spikes of any kind. If the sub is already decoupled, then the GRAMMA won't really add anything. But in basically ANY other situation, the GRAMMA offers improvement. Concrete is NOT inert - that's the most common one that people think doesn't benefit from a GRAMMA. That is FAR from true - concrete rooms benefit greatly from decoupling too!
 
D

DonutHunter

Audiophyte
The standard answer here is that you want your two subwoofers to be as close as possible in performance. They are, afterall, producing the exact same sounds at the exact same time, so it's theoretically best if they produce those sounds exactly the same!

However, I'm willing to stick my neck out there a little bit and say that it isn't critical for your two subwoofers to be identical. The reason for this is because we humans suck pretty bad at hearing bass! We have a hard time telling where it's coming from, we have a hard time telling what is distortion and what is the original signal, our ability to hear bass at different sound pressure levels varies wildly (at 85dB, we hear bass down to 20Hz just about as well as all the other audible frequencies, but at 75db, where we can very easily hear mid-range and most treble frequencies, we hear the bass as seeming much quieter than those other, higher frequencies) and we also depend on more than just our actual hearing in order to detect bass - where a tactile sensation will lead us to perceive much "louder" bass, even if the actual SPL isn't any higher!

Basically, in terms of what constitutes "bass quality" the metrics that really matter are: transient response (how quickly the bass notes start to play and how quickly they stop), sheer loudness and extension.

So "matching" your two subwoofers is still a real thing. If you took a cheap, little sub from a HTiB and tried to match it with your HSU VTF-3 MK2, it would be very easy to spot the differences. That little HTiB sub simply won't play as deep, it won't play as loud and it won't have the same tight transient response - so it would make a very poor match and end up distorting your bass when it tries to play the exact same notes at the exact same time as your HSU.

But it isn't vital to get the EXACT same VTF-3 MK2 subwoofer. You just need a subwoofer that has transient response, extension and output that is "quite similar" to your VTF-3 MK2. Your human hearing isn't going to be nearly as picky about the match as it would be for your front three speakers - which are producing mid-range and treble frequencies that our human hearing is quite good at distinguishing ;)

The sub that easily makes the most sense is the HSU VTF-2 MK3. It's the same sub as the older VTF-3 MK2, but just with a less powerful 250Watt amplifier rather than the 350Watt amp in your VTF-3 MK2. Obviously, with that reduction in power, you get a reduction in the sheer output (loudness) that the VTF-2 MK3 can produce, but due to the fact that it takes a doubling of power to produce just 3dB more output, the actual difference in output is really rather small.

On the other hand, if you are getting a second subwoofer purely in order to get louder output (and not so that you can place your two subwoofers in different locations so that you can get smoother bass response at multiple seating locations), then you're going to want to get a second subwoofer that focuses more on output capabilities.

If what you want to do is just make the bass that you already have louder, then you can either replace your VTF-3 MK2 with a single subwoofer that can simply play louder, or you can co-locate (ie. stack or place two subwoofers side-by-side) your exisiting VTF-3 MK2 with a second sub. On the other hand, if what you want to do is create smoother bass response at multiple seating locations, then you are going to place two subwoofers in different locations so that you can create a "virtual sub" whose "image" is located somewhere out in the room where it wouldn't be practical to physically place an actual subwoofer. You can think of it much like how two L/R stereo speakers are able to create a center "image" that makes it seem as though sound is coming from directly in the middle.

When you place two subwoofers in different locations, you don't actually get bass that is much louder. The two subs simply interact with each other and the room and you can use the placement of that "virtual sub" that their imaging creates in order to glean smoother, flatter bass response. If you co-locate your subs, you don't change the flatness of the response at all, you just get louder output - about 6dB louder output if the two subs are identical.

Either way, adding the HSU VTF-2 MK3 makes sense. If you co-locate it with your VTF-3 MK2, you won't get quite the full 6dB boost since the VTF-2 MK3 can't play quite as loud due to its lower powered amp, but it'll still be pretty close. If you use your VTF-3 MK2 and the VTF-2 MK3 in different locations, the difference in output capabilities will be virtually unnoticeable. Meanwhile, the transient response and extension remain very much the same - which is a good thing :) Also, the VTF-3 MK2 and VTF-2 MK3 LOOK identical, so from a cosmetic standpoint, it's an easy choice ;)

Hope that helps!

Oh, and don't forget to decouple your subwoofer(s) from the floor! The VTF-3 MK2 fits PERFECTLY on the standard size Auralex GRAMMA. So does the VTF-2 MK3 (since it's got an identical cabinet ;) ).
Hope I can piggyback my question in this thread on two subs. I am upgrading my system that consists of 5 Miller & Kreisel's S-150's across the front, and side and rear speakers and a Velodyne SPL-1500L sub sitting 3 feet under the left front channel S-150 inside a long wall of bookcases and equipment/tv. I have an identical space under the right front channel S-150 that I want to put a second sub in. My purpose or hope is that I'll have a smoother bass sounding system (not louder really, just more accurate).

I've been reading that I should try and find an identical Velodyne SPL-1500L but mine is years old so I kinda ruled that out. So I would like a recommendation for something that won't fight the Velo as you pointed out and sound nicely with the M & K's. There are a few M & K subs on ebay right now but I have no idea which one is good, which one is ancient, and most importantly which one will work with the Velo.

Second thing, and maybe I got sidetracked on this... I started to read about the HSU MBM-12 Mid-Bass subwoofer and I liked the idea of splitting the bass frequencies and letting one sub handle the 80 and below (the velo?) and the HSU handling 80-150 (I might not have understood this, so correct me if I'm wrong on this idea).

Any suggestions are welcome....my budget is probably less than $1,000 and as far south of 1K as possible. LOL. I'm also going to post this on the M & K thread to get more ideas from M & K experts, but here are the sub experts.

Thanks
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I wouldn't guess that Velodyne is a deep bass monster, which is where you want to restrict it too, so I would just replace it rather than adding something too it. At $1k you could get a Hsu VTF15H, which would undoubtedly beat a Velodyne/mbm-12 combo across the full range of frequencies. Here is a comparison between $1k subs, this is what I would really be looking at.
 
D

DonutHunter

Audiophyte
Thank you...I've just been listening and watching the review....wow....That HSU VTF-15H is really nice. But I think I was even more impressed with the Rythmik FV15....wow...wow....okay, uniformed question time. When I bought my Velo I was doing it on the basis of name and reviews...of 4 years + ago. Are these subs about the same as the velo, a little better than mine or a lot better?

God, now I'm wondering if they did a 2k sub shootout?!! Why wasn't SVS in the roundup? No, 1k subs?

If I went crazy and bought the M & K MX250 or the M & K MX350 subs---would they be that much better than the Rythmik or the HSU? Perhaps I'm not stating a fair comparison. After watching that 1k shootout, I'm feeling like this could get real expensive becoming a sub junkie.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top