Do firmware/encryption problems threaten Blu-Ray's reliability/popularity?

[PhilCohen]

Though I have one digital T.V. in my home,and though I sat on the sidelines for the DVD-HD vs.Blu-Ray format battle,and even though Blu-Ray has now won that format battle,I have no immediate plans to add a Blu-Ray player to my system.

Recent reports have hinted that Blu-Ray is a less-than-reliable format,and it may be more trouble than it's worth.

The most that the movie industry can realistically expect from the use of encryption & anti-copy signals on Blu-Ray(or on DVD for that matter),is to stop casual copying.No encryption is ever going to stop professional counterfeiters.Only reasonable pricing of legitimate software will deter counterfeiting.

Frequent changes in Blu-Ray encryption inflict hardship and inconvenience on consumers,and will give Blu-Ray a reputation as an unreliable product.Some purchasers of Blu-Ray discs are getting a message on their hi-def T.V. screens saying something to the effect of "Your Blu-Ray player does not have the latest firmware,and cannot play this disc.Please visit the website of the manufacturer of your Blu-Ray player,and download the latest firmware."
Some Blu-Ray player owners have already had to download(or have a repair shop download) 3 firmware updates,to cope with three revisions to Blu-Ray "BD+" encryption.

Wait a minute:half of American homes don't even have a computer or internet connection,and even amongst those that do have a computer,many do not have the high speed connection to do the firmware update.

Even amongst households that have a computer and high speed connection(like my household),My computer(and internet connection) is in a different part of my home,not near my home entertainment system.I'm a fairly new computer owner(since July 2007,I've had an iMAC).I can do all the basic things;web surfing,e-mailing,scanning,printing,burning CD-R's,loading songs & artwork onto my iPOD,and doing basic word processing,but I'm not tech savvy enough to revise the firmware on a Blu-Ray player,and wouldn't be looking forward to the idea of removing a Blu-Ray player from my stack of equipment,every time the Hollywood moguls decide to change the encryption system.For most owners of Blu-Ray players(except the most tech savvy),it would mean having to take(or ship) their Blu-Ray player to a repair shop.No thanks.If the movie studios' encryption revision hi-jinks cause frustration,inconvenience or unhappiness for consumers who bought a Blu-Ray disc or disc player,and simply wanted to play the damn thing,then Blu-Ray will soon get a bad reputation,and consumers will shun it.

One of the strong points of our existing standard definition DVD system,is that you can buy a disc,put it in your player,and be confident that it will play.Besides,97% of my home video collection(on VHS,Laserdisc & DVD's) is music videos & concerts that were shot on 16mm film,or shot and mastered on 525 line or 625 line videotape.These programs didn't have high definition to begin with,and they won't look any better on Blu-Ray than they look on DVD.

By the way,I only recently discovered the Audioholics website.It's a great website,and I'll be visiting often

 

[TLS Guy]

The above post is right on the money! The unsatisfactory people who inhabit Hollywood have been causing no end of trouble with the HDCP certification of the HDMI interface. Now this.

We need a ban on DRM. This election season it's time to start to lobby.

The OP is correct, these schemes only inconvenience the honest customers. They will not deter criminals. The only way to defeat the criminals is to offer program at a price were there is no percentage for the criminals to copy the discs.

If this is another boondoggle like HDMI, count me out as a Blue Ray customer.

 

[Pyrrho]

Though I have one digital T.V. in my home,and though I sat on the sidelines for the DVD-HD vs.Blu-Ray format battle,and even though Blu-Ray has now won that format battle,I have no immediate plans to add a Blu-Ray player to my system.

Recent reports have hinted that Blu-Ray is a less-than-reliable format,and it may be more trouble than it's worth.

The most that the movie industry can realistically expect from the use of encryption & anti-copy signals on Blu-Ray(or on DVD for that matter),is to stop casual copying.No encryption is ever going to stop professional counterfeiters.Only reasonable pricing of legitimate software will deter counterfeiting.

Frequent changes in Blu-Ray encryption inflict hardship and inconvenience on consumers,and will give Blu-Ray a reputation as an unreliable product.Some purchasers of Blu-Ray discs are getting a message on their hi-def T.V. screens saying something to the effect of "Your Blu-Ray player does not have the latest firmware,and cannot play this disc.Please visit the website of the manufacturer of your Blu-Ray player,and download the latest firmware."
Some Blu-Ray player owners have already had to download(or have a repair shop download) 3 firmware updates,to cope with three revisions to Blu-Ray "BD+" encryption.

Wait a minute:half of American homes don't even have a computer or internet connection,and even amongst those that do have a computer,many do not have the high speed connection to do the firmware update.

Even amongst households that have a computer and high speed connection(like my household),My computer(and internet connection) is in a different part of my home,not near my home entertainment system.I'm a fairly new computer owner(since July 2007,I've had an iMAC).I can do all the basic things;web surfing,e-mailing,scanning,printing,burning CD-R's,loading songs & artwork onto my iPOD,and doing basic word processing,but I'm not tech savvy enough to revise the firmware on a Blu-Ray player,and wouldn't be looking forward to the idea of removing a Blu-Ray player from my stack of equipment,every time the Hollywood moguls decide to change the encryption system.For most owners of Blu-Ray players(except the most tech savvy),it would mean having to take(or ship) their Blu-Ray player to a repair shop.No thanks.If the movie studios' encryption revision hi-jinks cause frustration,inconvenience or unhappiness for consumers who bought a Blu-Ray disc or disc player,and simply wanted to play the damn thing,then Blu-Ray will soon get a bad reputation,and consumers will shun it.

One of the strong points of our existing standard definition DVD system,is that you can buy a disc,put it in your player,and be confident that it will play.Besides,97% of my home video collection(on VHS,Laserdisc & DVD's) is music videos & concerts that were shot on 16mm film,or shot and mastered on 525 line or 625 line videotape.These programs didn't have high definition to begin with,and they won't look any better on Blu-Ray than they look on DVD.

By the way,I only recently discovered the Audioholics website.It's a great website,and I'll be visiting often

Though I agree with most of what you say, there is something about which you are wrong. If you are talking about NTSC DVDs (and if you don't know what NTSC or PAL is, and if you live in the U.S., then we are almost certainly talking about NTSC DVDs), they are only capable of 480 lines of resolution. If you have a disc from a source with 525 or 625 lines of resolution, they had to throw away picture detail to put it on a DVD. True, neither is as high a resolution as 1080p, but a 1080p disc is able to contain all of the resolution of the original, with no detail thrown away. So those programs would look better on a properly mastered Blu-Ray disc. As for 16mm, I am not familiar enough with that to be certain, but I suspect that it would look better on Blu-Ray also. I do know that 35mm is capable of much higher resolution than Blu-Ray, which means that a well made and properly stored film will be suitable for whatever higher definition upgrade happens to replace Blu-Ray in a decade or two.

 

[PhilCohen]

Though I agree with most of what you say, there is something about which you are wrong. If you are talking about NTSC DVDs (and if you don't know what NTSC or PAL is, and if you live in the U.S., then we are almost certainly talking about NTSC DVDs), they are only capable of 480 lines of resolution. If you have a disc from a source with 525 or 625 lines of resolution, they had to throw away picture detail to put it on a DVD. True, neither is as high a resolution as 1080p, but a 1080p disc is able to contain all of the resolution of the original, with no detail thrown away. So those programs would look better on a properly mastered Blu-Ray disc. As for 16mm, I am not familiar enough with that to be certain, but I suspect that it would look better on Blu-Ray also. I do know that 35mm is capable of much higher resolution than Blu-Ray, which means that a well made and properly stored film will be suitable for whatever higher definition upgrade happens to replace Blu-Ray in a decade or two.

The descriptions of NTSC having 525 lines and PAL having 625 lines are somewhat misleading.Since these are interlaced formats,fewer than half the lines are on the screen at a given time,and furthermore,some of those lines are not devoted to picture content,but rather to the vertical blanking interval,The black bar you would see if you turned the "vertical hold knob" on an older T.V. set.

 

[The Dukester]

I agree with most of your post. Most of the folks that have bought into HD discs so far, are videophiles to one degree or another. Most of them don't mind the updates. Once you watch HD for awhile, it's hard to go back to most of SD. I say most, because it depends on the transfer as to the picture quality you will see on either format. Some SD flicks look really good on a good upconverting player.

As for old shows or movies not looking better on HD, I have to disagree to a point. Case in point is a couple of HD DVDs I recently purchased of "Getaway" with Steve McQueen and "The Dirty Dozen". Those movies were updated for HD and the transfer is great! They never looked that good to begin with! So, it depends on many factors as to how a disc will look.

As for updating via the internet, you don't have to hook your player directly up to get the updates. You can burn an ISO disc of the update and pop it in the player to get it updated. You can usually ask the mfr to send you an update disc, also. It takes longer that way, but at least it is an option.

No doubt about it, copy protection stinks. I wish Toshiba and HD DVD would have won for some of the very reasons you mention. To me it was plainly a more complete, mature format out of the gate, but oh, well! I will buy BD fairly soon because I love movies and I'm spoiled with HD content, but I won't be happy about having to buy it on BD.

 

[stratman]

Though I have one digital T.V. in my home,and though I sat on the sidelines for the DVD-HD vs.Blu-Ray format battle,and even though Blu-Ray has now won that format battle,I have no immediate plans to add a Blu-Ray player to my system.

Recent reports have hinted that Blu-Ray is a less-than-reliable format,and it may be more trouble than it's worth.

The most that the movie industry can realistically expect from the use of encryption & anti-copy signals on Blu-Ray(or on DVD for that matter),is to stop casual copying.No encryption is ever going to stop professional counterfeiters.Only reasonable pricing of legitimate software will deter counterfeiting.

Frequent changes in Blu-Ray encryption inflict hardship and inconvenience on consumers,and will give Blu-Ray a reputation as an unreliable product.Some purchasers of Blu-Ray discs are getting a message on their hi-def T.V. screens saying something to the effect of "Your Blu-Ray player does not have the latest firmware,and cannot play this disc.Please visit the website of the manufacturer of your Blu-Ray player,and download the latest firmware."
Some Blu-Ray player owners have already had to download(or have a repair shop download) 3 firmware updates,to cope with three revisions to Blu-Ray "BD+" encryption.

Wait a minute:half of American homes don't even have a computer or internet connection,and even amongst those that do have a computer,many do not have the high speed connection to do the firmware update.

Even amongst households that have a computer and high speed connection(like my household),My computer(and internet connection) is in a different part of my home,not near my home entertainment system.I'm a fairly new computer owner(since July 2007,I've had an iMAC).I can do all the basic things;web surfing,e-mailing,scanning,printing,burning CD-R's,loading songs & artwork onto my iPOD,and doing basic word processing,but I'm not tech savvy enough to revise the firmware on a Blu-Ray player,and wouldn't be looking forward to the idea of removing a Blu-Ray player from my stack of equipment,every time the Hollywood moguls decide to change the encryption system.For most owners of Blu-Ray players(except the most tech savvy),it would mean having to take(or ship) their Blu-Ray player to a repair shop.No thanks.If the movie studios' encryption revision hi-jinks cause frustration,inconvenience or unhappiness for consumers who bought a Blu-Ray disc or disc player,and simply wanted to play the damn thing,then Blu-Ray will soon get a bad reputation,and consumers will shun it.

One of the strong points of our existing standard definition DVD system,is that you can buy a disc,put it in your player,and be confident that it will play.Besides,97% of my home video collection(on VHS,Laserdisc & DVD's) is music videos & concerts that were shot on 16mm film,or shot and mastered on 525 line or 625 line videotape.These programs didn't have high definition to begin with,and they won't look any better on Blu-Ray than they look on DVD.

By the way,I only recently discovered the Audioholics website.It's a great website,and I'll be visiting often

There are many here that believe Bluray will never get beyond the niche market for various reasons, one being what you've stated. I believe the technology is still going through a maturing cycle, at first the tech savvy are adopting followed by the mass market (it is hoped), Bluray has the potential to be revolutionary, but it has been strapped with all kinds of red tape that might lead to it's demise. Right now BD is at a juncture in it's life-cycle that if the mass market doesn't adopt in large numbers it stands the chance of becoming a niche format doomed to fade away, I hope it doesn't, like it's been said once you go hi def it's hard to back.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I guess while I agree that it can be a hassle, I think that hassle is just going to be a minor blip for many people. Those who have owned DirecTV receivers have enjoyed the hassle of having to run a phone line to their receiver and spend time of the phone figuring out how to get things to work. Oh, you want a dual tuner DirecTV box - you need TWO coax runs to the receiver.

The same is true with other technologies, such as your own PC which requires regular updates to firmware, virus definitions, and Windows to keep things going.

The newer Blu-ray players will be better and better, which will spur even more growth, but like the PS3, they will probably incorporate wi-fi so you can connect to a wireless network in your home... Or, just go get a 50' CAT-5 cable from monoprice for $6.00 and hook up your player once a month to get updates.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10208&cs_id=1020801&p_id=2158&seq=1&format=2

I think the fact that we have product these days that is actively being updated as technology evolves is something of a miracle, because just a few years ago if you had a product with a small bug in it, the manufacturer would tell you that it was yours to deal with.

I've heard those EXACT words when talking to Runco and Integra for tech support, and it is simply the way things were done. Now, they can fix the issue via firmware updates, and the newer the players are, the easier that firmware will be delivered.

On my PS3 - I go to 'UPDATE FIRMWARE' and press the 'X' button and it starts doing it's thing. Couldn't be much easier really.

 

[PhilCohen]

But what I'm saying,is this:Is the mainstream, middle-America DVD market, which is accustomed to putting a DVD disc into their player with the 99.9% certainty that it will play, be willing to endure hassles and frustration every few months when the movie industry changes the encryption system on Blu-Ray? I think not.

Also,I didn't say that older movies wouldn't look better in High Definition. I was refering to programs that were originally produced, either for television or the VHS & Laserdisc market, that didn't have High Definition to begin with, I.E. productions that were shot,edited and mastered on standard definition videotape(and many filmed productions made for television, for example, "Star Trek:The Next Generation", were edited on standard definition videotape)

Also,there are too many DVD players in circulation worldwide(and a huge market for DVD discs) for the entertainment moguls to be able to bluntly, suddenly terminate the format, like they did with Laserdisc.

 

[TLS Guy]

But what I'm saying,is this:Is the mainstream, middle-America DVD market, which is accustomed to putting a DVD disc into their player with the 99.9% certainty that it will play, be willing to endure hassles and frustration every few months when the movie industry changes the encryption system on Blu-Ray? I think not.

Also,I didn't say that older movies wouldn't look better in High Definition. I was refering to programs that were originally produced, either for television or the VHS & Laserdisc market, that didn't have High Definition to begin with, I.E. productions that were shot,edited and mastered on standard definition videotape(and many filmed productions made for television, for example, "Star Trek:The Next Generation", were edited on standard definition videotape)

Also,there are too many DVD players in circulation worldwide(and a huge market for DVD discs) for the entertainment moguls to be able to bluntly, suddenly terminate the format, like they did with Laserdisc.

The only way I would even think of tolerating this nonsense would be to leave the player connected to the net and have the updates fully automatic. The updates had better be full proof and not muck anything up. I just don't see why I should put in a lick of effort to satisfy the unsatisfactory people of Hollywood.

If you want to see how vile and unsatisfactory follow this story!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/04/hollywood.wiretaps.ap/index.html

None of them are worth their money and we could easily loose the lot and be better off. I'm done with having their DRM schemes ruin my day.

 

[PhilCohen]

The only way I would even think of tolerating this nonsense would be to leave the player connected to the net and have the updates fully automatic. The updates had better be full proof and not muck anything up. I just don't see why I should put in a lick of effort to satisfy the unsatisfactory people of Hollywood.

If you want to see how vile and unsatisfactory follow this story!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/04/hollywood.wiretaps.ap/index.html

None of them are worth their money and we could easily loose the lot and be better off. I'm done with having their DRM schemes ruin my day.

The idea of leaving your Blu-Ray player connected to the net(for firmware updates) only works if your internet connection is in the same part of your house as your home theater system. Mine isn't,so I say "No Way, Jose" to Blu-Ray.

 

[TLS Guy]

The idea of leaving your Blu-Ray player connected to the net(for firmware updates) only works if your internet connection is in the same part of your house as your home theater system. Mine isn't,so I say "No Way, Jose" to Blu-Ray.

You can put a radio card in the Ehternet port and it would stay connected via your radio router.

 

[BMXTRIX]

The idea of leaving your Blu-Ray player connected to the net(for firmware updates) only works if your internet connection is in the same part of your house as your home theater system. Mine isn't,so I say "No Way, Jose" to Blu-Ray.

You simply go with wi-fi and be done with it. For about $75 and your PS3 you get the player online 24/7 with no extra hassles. While I actually am wired with my PS3, my Wii is running wi-fi without fail.

I do agree that J6P may not be as up for this on a regular basis as others, but I also think that the biggest headaches we have with the format are really going to be worked out in the next couple of years and things will really settle down a great deal and manufacturers will work out solid ways to deliver firmware updates.

Right now, no doubt, both HD DVD and Blu-ray have had to go through regular firmware updates to deal with compatibility - so it may hold true in the future as well. Is this a price people will be willing to pay? I truly have no idea at all. I just know that for me, a product that can be upgraded, on the fly, to perform better, is not a hassle, but is a blessing which we never could enjoy just a few years ago.

 

[jliedeka]

I expect I'll get a BD player if the format survives. For now, I watch upscaled DVDs on my 720p LCD. I'm cool with that because the bigger screen is better than the 27" CRT I used to have.

I think Blu-Ray has a chance. The reason they won the format war is because they have a cool name that sets it apart from regular DVDs. I think HD-DVD was a much better technology but their marketing people totally screwed the pooch. HD-DVD, what's that? They should have called it something sexy like Hi-Def Video or something. Okay, I suck as a marketer but I can recognize banality when I see it.

Until they get their spec stabilized and I can be sure that any disc I buy will play in my choice of player, I'll pass.

I don't consider myself an early adopter but I'm willing to dabble in formats that have something to offer. I have a small collection of SACDs and DVD-As for example. I'm not, however, going to buy into a format until I'm sure it's a good thing.

Jim