Do files ripped from CD sound differet if they are FLAC vs MP3

R

Raye Humphries

Audiophyte
I usually rip my CDs through iTunes and have always used the default option to save them as .mp3. Well, today I decided to save it as .FLAC instead since FLAC is better (I had to use Foobar2000 instead since iTunes doesn't give a .FLAC option).

Long story short I listened to the songs and they didn't sound any better. I even ripped the CD again and saved it as .mp3 and compared the song quality: they were the same as far as I could tell.

The only reason I could guess as to why this occurred was that I had ripped it from a CD, which is already compressed, so both types of files could only sound as good as the CD quality. Also the CD is like 15 years old so I don't know if it could be "worn down" from age or if the bit or sample rates for CDs back then were worse

I have a nice computer and nice earpods so I doubt that they could have affected the quality.

Anyone else know?

Thanks!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You're losing information with mp3, FLAC (or Apple's ALAC) is (essentially) lossless. CD is lossless. High bitrate MP3 can be hard to tell a difference from lossless.
 
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R

Raye Humphries

Audiophyte
Ok. I don't really see a point then to use FLAC. The songs I had in FLAC took up almost 4 times as much space then the ones in mp3.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
FLAC is a balance between lossless audio with smaller file sizes and MP3 which represents even smaller file sizes but with a reduction in fidelity to the file.

With 4TB drives being around the $100 mark I don't see a reason to go with a lossy format.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The reason to use FLAC/ALAC is that they're lossless, and saves storage space over WAV files (lossless without compression of space). These days with storage so cheap even WAV is attractive, FLAC/ALAC is a no brainer. MP3 even 320mbps is very good but you still lose a bit although mostly is not an audible difference. If you don't hear a difference from 320mbps nor care about the thrown away bits then maybe you don't need to save storage space....
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
As others have said, FLAC and ALAC (Apple lossless) are lossless formats and give you full CD quality sound. With MP3 the ripping application throws away parts of the music that the average person with average hearing and average quality gear or headphones is least likely to notice. A 320mb/s rip throws away a little data while a 128Mb/s rip throws away a lot and is more easily noticeable. The differences between a 320Mb/s and lossless formats are in the fine details and are most noticeable when listening to very specific music that your know really-really well through really good speakers or headphones. Generally you won't hear the difference between high bitrate MP3s and lossless when listening to a car stereo, through average Bluetooth headphones, or when listening to rock, or average consumer speakers. Most people are happy with 256Mb/s quality for casual listening but storage is so cheap these days that I keep 100GB of FLACs on my phone.
 
B

Blue Dude

Audioholic
I usually rip my CDs through iTunes and have always used the default option to save them as .mp3. Well, today I decided to save it as .FLAC instead since FLAC is better (I had to use Foobar2000 instead since iTunes doesn't give a .FLAC option).

Long story short I listened to the songs and they didn't sound any better. I even ripped the CD again and saved it as .mp3 and compared the song quality: they were the same as far as I could tell.

The only reason I could guess as to why this occurred was that I had ripped it from a CD, which is already compressed, so both types of files could only sound as good as the CD quality. Also the CD is like 15 years old so I don't know if it could be "worn down" from age or if the bit or sample rates for CDs back then were worse

I have a nice computer and nice earpods so I doubt that they could have affected the quality.

Anyone else know?

Thanks!
Some misinformation here, some truth.

CD audio is not compressed, in the sense that information is compromised or lost. It may be dynamically compressed, but that's not the same thing. The CD audio is lossless and is for all practical purposes flawless, in that it perfectly conveys the intent of the artist and the recording engineer without technical compromises that would affect your perception of the audio. It does not degrade over time, and the CD audio technical spec hasn't changed since its inception more than 30 years ago. The CD technical spec is perfectly adequate to convey any waveform perceptible to humans at a more than adequate dynamic range. Mastering techniques have improved over time, but those change what's being encoded, not the adequacy of the encoding method. The CD audio spec is good enough for human hearing, and always will be. Mp3 is a lossy format, and some information is always lost, regardless of the bit rate. However, the difference between a high quality (320 kbps) mp3 and the original audio file is subtle, and may not be perceivable at all depending on the source.

The CD audio is what it is: a perfect representation of the artist's intent, as good as he or she could make it, from his or her brain to your ears. A FLAC is a perfect copy of the CD audio, like a zip file. I like them because they save some space, but mostly because they have better metadata options than WAV files and I can always opt to extract the original WAV file from them if I ever wanted to. A high bit rate mp3 is usually all but indistinguishable from the original, is much smaller than FLAC, has great metadata options, and can be played by anything.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
My young ears with perfect hearing can’t reliably hear a difference between mp3 @256kbps+ and flac. Just because information is discarded doesn’t mean we could have heard that discarded information in the first place.

can you hear the quiet sound of your breath while running a vacuum cleaner? Nope, the psychoacoustic model used in lossy compression knows that and will discard that and other similar sounds.

Personally, I think MP3 is outdated. AAC and vorbis are much better codecs. I can tell an mp3 encoded at 128kbps from the lossless version 95% of the time, but I have a much more difficult time with AAC at 128kbps.

Multichannel compression is even more efficient than stereo. A stereo recording at 256kbps gives 128kbps to each channel, in stereo, both channels are active nearly 100% of the time, with 5.1+ channels, a lower bitrate can be used since multichannel compression allows an encoder to allocate bits more efficiently based on which channel needs more bits, a scene with dialogue only can allow the full bitrate to be allocated to the center channel for example. The LFE channel requires very little bit allocation. I’m not sure about AAC, but I know that Dolby Digital uses a sampling rate of 240hz for the LFE channel. Due to the nyquist sampling theory, a full 48000hz sampling rate is only needed for full bandwidth channels. Dolby Digital has an effective bit depth (since lossy compression doesn’t have a true bit depth due to the Fourier transformation from the timing to frequency domain of modern transform based codecs) of 20bits, at a sampling rate of 240hz with a bit depth of 20 bits, which is high enough to accommodate the full 105dB dynamic range of film. a lossless lfe channel would only require a full 4.8kbps. I have no idea how the psychoacoustic model is applied to lfe, or if it even is, but the lfe channel hardly requires any data.

The bitrate where transparency is achieved based on my own abx testing is as follows:

MP3: 256kbps
OGG/Vorbis: 192kbps
AAC: 192kbps, some recordings 160kbps.

For multichannel formats:
Dolby Digital: 448kbps-640kbps, some scenes involving applause or rain can expose artifacts at 448kbps
DTS: 1536kbps, strangely enough, dts seems less efficient than DD, with the 768 bitrate sounding worse than 448 DD
Dolby Digital+ 5.1 (nearly all streaming sources use this): 384kbps
AAC 5.1: 350kbps vbr. 7.1: 500kbps+ vbr.

If you want to rip music to flac, go for it, but in all honesty, 320kbps AAC is more then adequate for even the most demanding recordings, and I guarantee you will lose nothing in quality that you can audibly perceive, even with the best equipment and immaculate hearing.

Honestly, I wish bluray had adopted more usage of high bitrate Dolby Digital plus (1500kbps-2000kbps) vs the space wasting lossless codecs, which have a bitrate ranging from 4mbps-6mbps. The average audio track in DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD wastes anywhere from 4-6 gigabytes of space, whereas Dolby Digital plus at a very high bitrate could reduce this size to 1-2gb, allowing things like lower video compression etc, this is even more important with UHD bluray, where video file sizes are as large as 50gb for a two hour movie.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
My young ears with perfect hearing can’t reliably hear a difference between mp3 @256kbps+ and flac. Just because information is discarded doesn’t mean we could have heard that discarded information in the first place.

can you hear the quiet sound of your breath while running a vacuum cleaner? Nope, the psychoacoustic model used in lossy compression knows that and will discard that and other similar sounds.

Personally, I think MP3 is outdated. AAC and vorbis are much better codecs. I can tell an mp3 encoded at 128kbps from the lossless version 95% of the time, but I have a much more difficult time with AAC at 128kbps.

Multichannel compression is even more efficient than stereo. A stereo recording at 256kbps gives 128kbps to each channel, in stereo, both channels are active nearly 100% of the time, with 5.1+ channels, a lower bitrate can be used since multichannel compression allows an encoder to allocate bits more efficiently based on which channel needs more bits, a scene with dialogue only can allow the full bitrate to be allocated to the center channel for example. The LFE channel requires very little bit allocation. I’m not sure about AAC, but I know that Dolby Digital uses a sampling rate of 240hz for the LFE channel. Due to the nyquist sampling theory, a full 48000hz sampling rate is only needed for full bandwidth channels. Dolby Digital has an effective bit depth (since lossy compression doesn’t have a true bit depth due to the Fourier transformation from the timing to frequency domain of modern transform based codecs) of 20bits, at a sampling rate of 240hz with a bit depth of 20 bits, which is high enough to accommodate the full 105dB dynamic range of film. a lossless lfe channel would only require a full 4.8kbps. I have no idea how the psychoacoustic model is applied to lfe, or if it even is, but the lfe channel hardly requires any data.

The bitrate where transparency is achieved based on my own abx testing is as follows:

MP3: 256kbps
OGG/Vorbis: 192kbps
AAC: 192kbps, some recordings 160kbps.

For multichannel formats:
Dolby Digital: 448kbps-640kbps, some scenes involving applause or rain can expose artifacts at 448kbps
DTS: 1536kbps, strangely enough, dts seems less efficient than DD, with the 768 bitrate sounding worse than 448 DD
Dolby Digital+ 5.1 (nearly all streaming sources use this): 384kbps
AAC 5.1: 350kbps vbr. 7.1: 500kbps+ vbr.

If you want to rip music to flac, go for it, but in all honesty, 320kbps AAC is more then adequate for even the most demanding recordings, and I guarantee you will lose nothing in quality that you can audibly perceive, even with the best equipment and immaculate hearing.

Honestly, I wish bluray had adopted more usage of high bitrate Dolby Digital plus (1500kbps-2000kbps) vs the space wasting lossless codecs, which have a bitrate ranging from 4mbps-6mbps. The average audio track in DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD wastes anywhere from 4-6 gigabytes of space, whereas Dolby Digital plus at a very high bitrate could reduce this size to 1-2gb, allowing things like lower video compression etc, this is even more important with UHD bluray, where video file sizes are as large as 50gb for a two hour movie.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I can almost agree with you on all counts, but don't tell those who believe in preamps, amps and dacs sound different to them even if they have benchmark verifiable specs and operated well within their limits.:D:D
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I'll never understand those that will spend $2000-5000 on an audio system yet are too cheap to spend $100 on enough room to store lossless rips. But to each their own.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... Just because information is discarded doesn’t mean we could have heard that discarded information in the first place.
...
Exactly. Lots of research went into acoustics developed the perceptual coding systems: mp3, DD, DTS, etc
Info that is masked one way or another is not heard and therefore won't be missed if discarded.
Science in action vs alternate facts and realities. ;) :D
 
R

Raye Humphries

Audiophyte
Some misinformation here, some truth.

CD audio is not compressed, in the sense that information is compromised or lost. It may be dynamically compressed, but that's not the same thing. The CD audio is lossless and is for all practical purposes flawless, in that it perfectly conveys the intent of the artist and the recording engineer without technical compromises that would affect your perception of the audio.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, CDs don't lose any audio that can be heard by humans. They just throw out stuff that our brains can't interpret as sound.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
So if I'm understanding you correctly, CDs don't lose any audio that can be heard by humans. They just throw out stuff that our brains can't interpret as sound.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.
CD's are to music as a cup is to water. It's not the medium it's the media on it.

The PCM (Pulse Code Modulated) data is 16 bits of resolution at 44.1 sampling rate. The 44.1 is DOUBLE the frequency response that humans at their best can hear.

Check out this well written article:

https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
 
R

Raye Humphries

Audiophyte
CD's are to music as a cup is to water. It's not the medium it's the media on it.

The PCM (Pulse Code Modulated) data is 16 bits of resolution at 44.1 sampling rate. The 44.1 is DOUBLE the frequency response that humans at their best can hear.

Check out this well written article:

https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
Ok, so one more question. Is it possible to get better quality than CD quality? Sorry if it's a stupid question.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Ok, so one more question. Is it possible to get better quality than CD quality? Sorry if it's a stupid question.
Yes in theory, however there is some controversy about whether or not you'll be able to hear the difference between 16bit 44.1kHz FLACs or CDs and 24bit 192kHz. I bought a few albums just to see if I could and I'm pretty sure that I can't. I'm fine with 256bit MP3 quality for casual listening/background music but for critical listening I want FLACs.

HDtracks has a Hi-Res store.
http://www.hdtracks.com/music/hires
 
R

Raye Humphries

Audiophyte
Alright thanks!

Also, if I was going to make a backup of my music library, should I copy it onto a bunch of CDs or put them on an external drive?
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Alright thanks!

Also, if I was going to make a backup of my music library, should I copy it onto a bunch of CDs or put them on an external drive?
i would get an Amazon Cloud Drive account for $59 a year and upload them. That nets you 1TB of storage and if you are using FLAC you'll get 3 to 4 times the number of tracks.

Great thing about FLAC is you can extract them back to their original WAV file if that suites you.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I prefer hard drives but also have extensive amounts on thumb drives, then there's always the cd itself as a backup. Copying to CD is too time consuming unless I want a particular cd to play in a car or give to someone....
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, CDs don't lose any audio that can be heard by humans. They just throw out stuff that our brains can't interpret as sound.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.
Well, CD quality doesn't throw out anything in the audio band. Perceptual coded recordings do that such as MP3, DD, DTS, etc.
 
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