DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
I appreciate what you say about how 4kHz is most sensitive. (Momentarily playing devil's advocate) On the flip side, what kinds of musical sounds are produced at 4kHz (rhetorical question)
Can I answer it anyway? :D
Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network

Because, I tell you, if there is just one single instrument/source that we pretty much ALL can tell errors with, I submit it would have to be the human voice.
I would not disagree. :D The question is, what do crossovers do that make them poor for use in the sensitive region? The only thing I can think of is phase shift.

Phase, Time and Distortion in Loudspeakers

When was the last time you listened to harpsichord
A few weeks ago, actually. :D
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
When or will you be taking any macro and microeconomic courses, Monk?

I'm not an economist but I don't feel terribly uncomfortable speaking a little about it. After all, it's not like all economists agree.
I ask you the same question, sir. ;)

Just kidding, of course. :)

While Dennis Murphy and I share a passion for HI-FI and speaker design, I fear we don't share a love of economics. :D

And in your example, they're not looking to game the system. Rather the actual cost of the speakers is increased especially if it took weeks or more.
How does the actual cost of the speaker go up? I've been to about 7 different dealers and heard ~35-40 different speakers and no dealer has ever charged me. :D

Are you talking about, say, transportation cost? :confused:
 
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monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
Unfortunately, for a few days every month these speakers are subject to bloat, become terribly grating, and get on your nerves.
Also, you should probably wear a condom while listening to them.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
While Dennis Murphy and I share a passion for HI-FI and speaker design, I fear we don't share a love of economics. :D
You've been speaking a lot for Dennis Murphy today. Is there something we should know? :)
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
You've been speaking a lot for Dennis Murphy today. Is there something we should know? :)
LOL

Yes. I am Batman! :D

Speaking for or about?

I wasn't speaking for him when I said he loses money, he has stated that several times both privately and publicly. :D He as also stated privately and publicly that he is an economist. :D I wasn't speaking for him, just repeating what he has already said.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I ask you the same question, sir. ;)

Just kidding, of course. :)

While Dennis Murphy and I share a passion for HI-FI and speaker design, I fear we don't share a love of economics. :D



How does the actual cost of the speaker go up? I've been to about 7 different dealers and heard ~35-40 different speakers and no dealer has ever charged me. :D

Are you talking about, say, transportation cost? :confused:
Was just wondering if Economics might be an elective or required for whatever studies you're undertaking. And transportation costs come to mind as well as people who audition speakers at home and are willing to pay the S/H costs, restocking fees or whatever. Feel free to value your time as zero if that suits you or just chalk it up education/life's lessons.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
Was just wondering if Economics might be an elective or required for whatever studies you're undertaking.
Nope! :D I took an economics class in HS and that was enough for me. Right now I'm just taking general ed. classes so that I can transfer to a UC. (UCSB, perhaps?)

At UC I will be studying to obtain an electrical engineering (Mothra help me) degree. :D

Feel free to value your time as zero if that suits you or just chalk it up education/life's lessons.
I don't value my time as zero. Spending time doing something I enjoy is worth more than the 10 bucks an hour I'm missing. :D Likewise, 1c an hour is worth more than doing something I hate. :D That's not to say I don't have a "price". If one offered me 2K to work for an hour, you can bet your *** I'll be working instead of designing, but only so that I can buy a pair of
These
The Madisound Speaker Store

YG Acoustics Reference 3 mid-bass driver - YouTube

(The guy in the video gives great commentary as to what makes the driver special :rolleyes:)

These
Welcome to E-Speakers.com - Very High End Loudspeaker Components

And These
AE Speakers Online Store

I don't disagree that if one dislikes DIY they would/should add labor into their cost, but most DIYers enjoy it! :D
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Opportunity costs (doing one thing vs. another) doesn't necessarily have to come down to just money. It can be something like do you decide to go and play some video game instead of studying in which one decides for themselves the relative benefits and costs associated with each. Sometimes it's a combination of the two as it certainly appears to be in Jin's case.
I see the point that you're making, but I have no idea how one could make a calculation that isn't completely hypothetical?
Now Jin has said, at least initially, that he spent a total of about $1100 on the project. Further that it was better than any $1100 speaker out there. Now, I'm not the one saying he came out ahead. He is and to justify, rationalize, figure it out, whatever, he's setting a labor rate of $0/hr. because in part, the time with his Dad is priceless. But I'm not setting $20/hr as the monetary equivalent to time spent with his father. We can factor that out as some sort of intangible to be added after the fact. That number is nothing more than saying, had he been able to work a second part time job for those same amount of hours, what would he have earned? If it's $2800 then add it to the material cost and you get a more realistic cost for the project.
Well, you'd have to make the assumption that if he didn't work on his speakers, he'd have gotten a second job to fill that time. If he wasn't prepared to fill that time with paid work - speakers, or no speakers - that time has no monetary value as I see it. But then, I'm not an economist, so what do I know.:D
Now, let's say that the total cost was $3900 and he couldn't tell the difference between that and your hypothetical $3000 speakers. Only Jin can make the personal value judgement as to whether that was worth it. But let's say that he consistently picked the $3000 speakers over his. What then? Maybe it's still worth it and maybe he'd do it again because the value to him of time outweighs everything.
This is still assuming that he would have been otherwise employed, if he wasn't working on the speakers. We just can't make that assumption. The only inputs we can objectively measure are the costs of the speaker parts, any tools purchased expressly for the project, electrical power consumed by power tools and lights, etc. Of course, how the Statements fare against any other speaker is something that can be tested. They can be measured under the same conditions as other speakers and a panel of qualified listeners could assess them against the others and then draw some conclusions about relative performance. Until then, we just have his word. He simply can't avoid being biased when he judges the Statements' performance against any other speaker - that's just human nature. But, an independent panel of judges may say he's absolutely right.
Please understand that I'm not taking a stand against DIY no more than putting in a sink yourself instead of hiring a plumber. 'Course, if that sink leaks, and you've chipped the counter top, you just might have to rethink your thought process. If not, your wife will do it for you. It's nothing more than coming up with a more realistic cost of one's speakers.

No. What we do is total up the costs for materials which would include glue, stain, rags, tools such as a router, bits, blades, clamps unless he already had those in his possession. As to labor costs, that depends on the individual because each of us, should we choose, just might be able to find some sort of job after hours commensurate with our respective abilities.

Take the case of a woman who knits a scarf and it takes her 10 hours with material costs being $40. If we arbitrarily assign a $10/hr. labor rate, it cost her $140 to make that scarf. That same scarf, or shall we say a comparable one might cost $60. This DOES NOT MEAN she should abandon knitting because maybe she derives some complex personal satisfaction. Maybe it's time spent with her daughter. Maybe something else. But from a purely economic POV, she is willing to incur an economic loss for her handmade scarf because the other benefits, intangible as they may be, to her compensate for it.

That depends on what the alternatives are and they're not the same for everyone. Nor does it necessarily involve a dollar figure as I illustrated above.

I admit, it's a difficult matter. If you were to search for the terms leisure, opportunity, costs, you'd find there's been papers, studies, and what not published on just this thing. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on how to calculate it but by the same token everyone is not unilaterally assigning zero to it either.

If you've read what I've written, then you'll understand at no time am I telling him or others that what he did wasn't worth it. He's said he thinks his speakers are possibly only bettered by moving up to the 10-15K range. If that's the case, then what is there to object in my assigning a total cost of $3900? If then maybe there were other options worth considering. Work the extra time, if possible, to achieve sonic equivalence and go fishing with your Dad, or a road trip, or any number of things.
I can see where you are coming from, in that there are "costs" over and above the materials used in construction of the speakers. But, the way I see it, only the person involved can make that calculation. Only he can say if he would otherwise be engaged in paid work. Only he can say what the emotional cost is, if he confines himself in his shop and ignores his family. Only he can say he might have gotten more exercise if he wasn't working on the speakers. In other words you or I, or anyone else could add a hypothetical additional cost above the material cost, but it would be meaningless, as we'd be picking figures out of thin air.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
I think what Chu Gai is saying is you cannot build a speaker yourself, value it at only what it cost to purchase the materials and then brag your "$1100" speaker is better than $10,000 speakers based on the performance to cost ratio alone. If it sounds better - cool, but you cannot brag about how little it costs because it wouldn't cost a corporation that little to build. A manufacturer cannot value his time and extra costs at zero, so it is not an apples to apples comparison. If you want to build a speaker and compare the cost to other DIY speakers that's fine, but DIY doesn't involve a business model, while real corporations do. Companies cannot build a speaker and sell it for only what it cost in materials to build else they'd never make money, thus ceasing to be a company. It's two completely separate examples, and thus it makes no sense to attempt to compare them and declare one the winner based on cost.
LOL

Yes. I am Batman! :D

Speaking for or about?

I wasn't speaking for him when I said he loses money, he has stated that several times both privately and publicly. :D He as also stated privately and publicly that he is an economist. :D I wasn't speaking for him, just repeating what he has already said.
Just giving you crap, implying you kidnapped Dennis. :eek::D But Batman is a good guy! Why would you do such a thing, Bruce Wayne? :)
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Nope! :D I took an economics class in HS and that was enough for me. Right now I'm just taking general ed. classes so that I can transfer to a UC. (UCSB, perhaps?)

At UC I will be studying to obtain an electrical engineering (Mothra help me) degree. :D
Practically or maybe it's pragmatically speaking, IMO, petroleum engineering is the way to go.

I don't value my time as zero. Spending time doing something I enjoy is worth more than the 10 bucks an hour I'm missing. :D Likewise, 1c an hour is worth more than doing something I hate. :D That's not to say I don't have a "price". If one offered me 2K to work for an hour, you can bet your *** I'll be working instead of designing, but only so that I can buy a pair of
These
The Madisound Speaker Store

YG Acoustics Reference 3 mid-bass driver - YouTube

(The guy in the video gives great commentary as to what makes the driver special :rolleyes:)

These
Welcome to E-Speakers.com - Very High End Loudspeaker Components

And These
AE Speakers Online Store

I don't disagree that if one dislikes DIY they would/should add labor into their cost, but most DIYers enjoy it! :D
it really isn't a matter of like vs. dislike when it comes to trying to get a handle on time. Heck use the minimum wage. After all, I think that anyone who is spending a grand on total materials is figuring that his efforts are substantially better than spending that same money on a commercial offering.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
Companies cannot build a speaker and sell it for only what it cost in materials
Of course DIY and B&M aren't on a level playing field. That's what makes DIY so great...the deck is stacked in your favor! :D

You can't say, "well DIY is less costly for good designs, we have to level the playing field if we want to compare". You must compare things as they are. :D No one here expects B&M to sell it at cost. They need money to put 'food on their family'! :D

A manufacturer cannot value his time and extra costs at zero, so it is not an apples to apples comparison.
But it is an apples to apples comparison.

Jin built a speaker for eleven-hundred dollars and then he compares it to other speakers at various price points. It doesn't matter that B&M can't build a speaker and sell it at cost...that's what gives DIY its value, and much of its appeal!
 
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N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Of course DIY and B&M aren't on a level playing field. That's what makes DIY so great...the deck is stacked in your favor! :D
Only if you know what you're doing. :) Again, our definitions of DIY differ (I consider it Design IT Yourself, as in you need to design it all on your own to be fully DIY. Otherwise it's just DMOIY - Do Most Of It Yourself).

But it is an apples to apples comparison.

Jin built a speaker for eleven-hundred dollars and then he compares it to other speakers at various price points. It doesn't matter that B&M can't build a speaker and sell it at cost...that's what gives DIY its value, and much of its appeal!
No, it's not. Did you read what I wrote? It's not apples to apples for the reasons stated above. You cannot compare (apples to apples) what it costs for you to build a speaker compared to what it costs a corporation to build it, and this is why: If you value your time and the tools necessary to achieve the build at $0 then it is not apples to apples, because a corporation cannot do that. Period.

Hey - it's my 1000th post. I should retire. :D
 
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cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Only if you know what you're doing. :) Again, our definitions of DIY differ (I consider it Design IT Yourself, as in you need to design it all on your own to be fully DIY. Otherwise it's just DMOIY - Do Most Of It Yourself).


No, it's not. Did you read what I wrote? It's not apples to apples for the reasons stated above. You cannot compare (apples to apples) what it costs for you to build a speaker compared to what it costs a corporation to build it, and this is why: If you value your time and the tools necessary to achieve the build at $0 then it is not apples to apples, because a corporation cannot do that. Period.

Hey - it's my 1000th post. I should retire. :D
Agree with Nuance on this... If your going to compare something you have to include the cost of design, materials, labor and we seem to forget the considerable amount of dollars a corporation must include in the sale of a product that actually includes the payment of taxes, benefits, marketing, expenses like power and water, possible building rental, contract labor, and product distribution and other cost not mentioned. These companies must show a profit to divide payment of their operating expenses and capital cost. Does a DIY'er do that, NOPE unless they are actually selling their product. So if your going to compare , compare all the cost or remove the cost of a corporation which will be impossible since we don't know what their business plan is unless we knew the Expenses for Cost of goods sold (COGS). These are the expenses directly associated with producing goods
 
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Only if you know what you're doing. :) Again, our definitions of DIY differ (I consider it Design IT Yourself, as in you need to design it all on your own to be fully DIY. Otherwise it's just DMOIY - Do Most Of It Yourself).
I would have to say that Design it yourself would be extreme DIY. I say that because a DIY mechanic isn't going to forge the block he builds an engine with no more than a speaker designer is going to design the driver they wan to use. They use off the shelf parts and build around them. So while an engine builder has to select the correct parts to have the engine run the way he wants, it's the same for a speaker builder. That would be extreme DIY IMHO. I say that because there aren't many people that have that level of ability, but are still DIYers. The guy that buys an engine kit with pre-selected parts is an assembler, but putting things together correctly is still difficult. I would compare this to someone that gets a known design (like the statements) buys individual drivers, crossovers, and builds a cabinet from scratch. Still very difficult, but not as difficult as the folks that designed the statements.

Buying a kit that has a pre-assembled crossover and cabinet is the same as the guy that buys a pre-assembled crate engine. Didn't really do anything himself, but more than if they just took the vehicle to a mechanic and said "I want a new engine".
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
I would have to say that Design it yourself would be extreme DIY. I say that because a DIY mechanic isn't going to forge the block he builds an engine with no more than a speaker designer is going to design the driver they wan to use. They use off the shelf parts and build around them. So while an engine builder has to select the correct parts to have the engine run the way he wants, it's the same for a speaker builder. That would be extreme DIY IMHO. I say that because there aren't many people that have that level of ability, but are still DIYers. The guy that buys an engine kit with pre-selected parts is an assembler, but putting things together correctly is still difficult. I would compare this to someone that gets a known design (like the statements) buys individual drivers, crossovers, and builds a cabinet from scratch. Still very difficult, but not as difficult as the folks that designed the statements.

Buying a kit that has a pre-assembled crossover and cabinet is the same as the guy that buys a pre-assembled crate engine. Didn't really do anything himself, but more than if they just took the vehicle to a mechanic and said "I want a new engine".
I actually agree with you. My personal definition of DIY only applies to the topic at hand (speakers). Design It Yourself in other facets of engineering is much more difficult IMO. I like your extreme DIY phrase...perhaps I'll start using that. :)
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Businesses have a lot to deal with for sure.
[video=youtube;YlVDGmjz7eM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM[/video]
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I suppose if you build a great sounding speaker that measures flat +/- 1.0 dB on-axis and smooth horizontal off-axis 15-60 degrees and vertical off-axis 15-30 degrees, then you may have a great accurate speaker that measures better than most pro speakers.

Has it been done?

I'm sure everyone thinks his speakers sound pretty great subjectively, which is good enough for most of us. But do they measure better than the KEF 201/2, JBL 6332, TAD CR1, etc?
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
I suppose if you build a great sounding speaker that measures flat +/- 1.0 dB on-axis and smooth horizontal off-axis 15-60 degrees and vertical off-axis 15-30 degrees, then you may have a great accurate speaker that measures better than most pro speakers.

Has it been done?

I'm sure everyone thinks his speakers sound pretty great subjectively, which is good enough for most of us. But do they measure better than the KEF 201/2, JBL 6332, TAD CR1, etc?
I get to point were I sometimes just don't care if a speaker measures great or not, but I do care how does it sounds in my room using my equipment, regardless of the cost.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I think what Chu Gai is saying is you cannot build a speaker yourself, value it at only what it cost to purchase the materials and then brag your "$1100" speaker is better than $10,000 speakers based on the performance
Actually I think you most certainly can. Just like ATI can make an AMP in the USA and sell it for $1800 and a comparable amp made in China sells for $600. Are you now saying that I can't brag about my $600 purchase sounding as good as an $1800 purchase? So you are saying that the $600 amp now has to be valued some other way?
 

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